Healing From Emotional Abuse

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Wrestling Speaking Out: Custom Wrestling Matches: with Risa Pappas, Jen Casale & Rob Crowther

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to the Bob Culture Podcast — Healing From Abuse Podcast Connection. I'm Marissa and I am the host of Healing From Emotional Abuse. And I'm here with Risa Pappas and Jen Casale, and Rob Crowther from the Bob Culture Podcast. So let's go around and introduce ourselves just so everyone knows who everyone's voice is.
 
Rob: Ladies first please.
 
Risa: Yeah, you said my name first. I'm going first. Risa Pappas. I'm a Wrestler, Pro Wrestling Commentator, ring announcer and all around non idiot.
 
Jen: I love it. I'm Jen Casale. I am over here at the CWC Academy. I am head of HR over here. And I have been in wrestling the Wrestling World for about, I guess, 5 Years now.
 
Rob: I am Rob Crowther, host of the Bob Culture Podcast, senior editor at the pop break calm and super major mark that Risa and Jen are probably very sick of
 
Risa: Impossible.
 
Marissa: I was going to say, and Marissa. Just kidding. 
 
Rob: No, just yeah. You're mostly sick of me.
 
Marissa: That's not true. So I'm actually really intrigued, Risa and Jen brought up an interesting point to Rob and I one day about custom wrestling matches — to which I have never heard of, but apparently is really big in the wrestling scene. So we're going to talk about that, and how that can lead to sexual assault and sexualization of female wrestlers. So I would love if Risa or Jen would start us off because I don't even know where to start here.
 
Risa: Well, Jen, I think I think you have some kind of insights into maybe the somewhat history of it. And so far as we're aware.
 
Jen: Yes, but I kind of wanted to get just, you know, a little bit of your viewpoint on it. Because customs is something that is, it's a hush subject, it's something that like no one wants to talk about, that no one kind of knows about. And as I was saying, kind of earlier that you can do a search for custom wrestling matches on the internet, and nothing comes up. So it's something that is not really talked about until you either get into the Wrestling World. And, you know, someone approaches you and says, you know, as I know, it happened to you Risa. It was like, hey, do you want to do customers wrestling? And yeah, you're like, Well, I  don't even know what that is? All right.
 
Risa: Yeah, I can I can talk to about that experience. Maybe by way of introduction, because I was I was initially clueless, as I'm sure a significant portion of your audience would be. So I was in a locker room, I was approached by somebody who gave me a handout. And they said, do you know how to take bumps? And I said, Yeah, sure. And for the uninitiated, taking a bump just means, Can you fall down in the ring without hurting yourself and make it look like someone hit you? So I said, yeah. And I kind of made the assumption that they were asking because they wanted to maybe put it in some kind of a storyline. So I was ring announcing, so I thought maybe they were going to be an ultra-bad guy. And knock me out as the ring announcer which is kind of a no-no. Only really awful bad guys do that in wrestling, because normally, you know, referees and ring announcers, we're kind of off limits. So that's what I assumed they were asking for. And then they handed me this piece of paper. And they said, No-no, this is for customs. And they gave me a handout. And it basically just had a bunch of categories of like, things that I would consent to do in a wrestling match on camera. And I did I still kind of didn't understand. So they finally said, like customs and I was like, Oh, and I immediately became very defensive and withdrawn, and much skeeved out. And I just said, Oh, no-no thank you, not interested. And prior to that, my only knowledge of customs was like, basically, you know, the rumor mill that is all professional wrestling, indie wrestling. It's very, it's very chatty. It's very like caddy for being male dominated. It's very much like everybody talking smack on everybody else. I heard so and so does customs on like, well, I don't know what that means. Like custom matches. Custom matches being things that people are paying money for, and therefore dictating what goes on in those matches and they're not for anybody else. They're just for the person who pays for them. And I would say, I leave it up to your imagination, because that's really essentially what it means. It can be completely innocuous, it can be just like, Hey, I really want to see these two people specifically have a match, and I'm gonna, I'm willing to pay to have to be the only person who has that match. Or it can, you know, it can range from relatively innocuous to basically full on pornography. I've only ever been approached about this one time. That was it. And I said no. And it was never brought up again. But that's, basically my personal experience, only. And I very much assume that as a non-wrestler, I'm not the general person who's being asked that. So Jen can probably speak to it from a wrestler’s perspective, because they're much more the ones who are being asked to do these custom matches.
 
Jen: Yes, and I think, you know, the one thing about it, that is a little bit, you know, it's a little bit strange. Especially, there's so much more nuance to this, like right now, especially with the COVID-era that we are now in, because there is a lot more stuff that's just going directly to tape because we can't have audiences. So now what customs wrestling is, is almost like a whole lot wider, because there is a lot more. There's like actual custom wrestling matches kind of wrestling going on. That is completely innocuous. And even in the customs world, you have that it does range everywhere from you know, where most of the time, even in the matches that are very, very oddly specific, like, let's say, Oh, I want to you know, it's a match full of pile drivers. And the girls will still just wear, they'll wear a lot more than they would wear their gear. They'll wear you know, sweatpants and a T-shirt. It's a really weird, weird kind of world. But to me, it was very fascinating. And I kind of wanted to understand a little bit better how it got to be that way. So, I kind of looked into the history a little bit, and I wanted to kind of take like a bird’s-eye view of wrestling. And I looked a little bit more specifically on the women's wrestling side. However, I think it's really important to note that the business for men's custom wrestling match is just as strong as it is for women. So there is no, you know, beating around the bush that this is, you know, just something that is a women's thing, I can only bring you, a woman's direct perspective of it, because that's what I am. Um, but so I really looked back into, you know, you look all the way back into the golden era of wrestling, which is like 80 years ago, at this point. You have people like Mildred Burke and May Western in the 40s, and the 50s. They even challenged men at that time, which was like really crazy and different for the society that they were that we were living in, which was very kind of stringent at that time. But then I think a lot of people have heard all of the stories about Mola to who has kind of gotten a much more of a bad rep in the more recent years. Where they say that she was sending people out to have private matches at people's houses and things like that. Um, and then that was going on back then. I wasn't there. So I can't say if it was or not. Like I said, those are certainly some of the stories that you hear and that you see in print. But it was also I think, part of the industry certainly at that point, especially with Mullah and how lady thought kind of made in wrestling at that time. Then you move into like the 60s in the 70s. And in the 70s. They were trying to kind of save the magazines because the business were all the magazines were dying. So in 73 Stan Weston, he had the sports review wrestling magazine that was like on the brink of collapsing. So he started this thing called apartment wrestling, which was featured in his magazine and it was women and scantily clad, or they were in there, um, they were in lingerie, and they were wrestling. And of course this sold like hotcakes. Um, so I think that when I'm looking at this, I'm like, Okay, this seems like something that's very close to what, you know why people would want customs because it's in an apartment. It's close to your house. It's you know, that's like a personal thing that you just have. And so in that way that that's where I'm like, I'm I kind of see this in that. And the ironic thing is that for WWF at the time, it was Vince Sr. was in charge. And He did not like this He was trying to cut ties with the magazine. Because he thought that it was just, you know, he thought that it was smut and smut and whatever. And didn't want anything to do with it. Um, but then we move on to looking at WWF into WWE going into you looking like the Attitude Era and the Aggression Era. So from like, 90s to 2000s, where it was very much adult entertainment on regular TV. Bra and Panty matches were standard fare. So this was in everyone's living room. And, you know, not just in wrestling, but like Jerry Springer was very popular, and shows that nature. So I think, when you come into this viewpoint of like, Oh my God, this, this is like very sexual and crazy. Like, why would somebody be doing this and wrestling today, this is like, totally out of whack? Well, if you look back some years, this was just like, totally normal on your TV, a couple of, you know, regular TV a couple of nights a week. And things didn't really change until it went very family, you know, things started to get more TV-PG. And you know, of course, we always refer back to WWE, because they’re, especially at that time, there was really no competition. And it wasn't until I think they went PG in 2008 or 2009. Um, and then things started to like, settle down, there's less blood people got some more clothes on. Nobody's like ripping somebody else's clothes off into their underwear or having a mud wrestling match anymore. Things are starting to settle down a little bit. And then, you know, we didn't have the Women's Revolution until 2015. So if we're looking back in something that has an 80 year 100 year history, to only go back five years to when things got to where they are right now, it's hard for a lot of younger people to see that like things weren't always the way that they are right now. So I think something like customs can look very shocking, when really, I think a lot of customs, you know, that going on is very similar to, you know, regular wrestling that you saw on your TV, you know, 10-15 years ago. Which is not to be like hey, that's great. It definitely not the kind of wrestling that you know, is for everybody. But it was for some people and some people still want to see that so there's definitely a market for it. And like I said, I you know, I'm looking at it from the women's perspective, but from the male perspective, like I said, that market is really big and I think the problem with why it continues to be around, and really continues to be a thing, is that there is a lot more money in it for a lot of wrestlers than there is for them to go and work a regular indie show. And I think that's like the big kind of crux of the issue to me.
 
Rob: That's very interesting. So I'll play the dummy because again this is a lot of this is very news to me / devil’s advocate. I'll come at you guys this way. I'm trying to find the line here because when I hear about like even I feel like the word customs right now like it like it's just bad like negative all the way through and through but Risa mentioned like hey you know sometimes there is a story or there's you know some match that people want to see like for legit like storyline reasons. Jen, no stranger to being in a faction what happens to factions again this is purely storyline, what happens to factions they break up or someone turns or you know, that Seth Rollins chair shot from behind. And then you know, you want to see those former tag partners face each other. And Jen, you also brought up we're living in this 2020 COVID world right now where Hey, let's face it, the indie you know, it's hard to do indie shows, we're lucky to have these driving shows that we've had, we're lucky to have these bring your own chair shows. I'm so thankful that I've been going to these shows, I really need her I know, and I’m super appreciative to the indies. That has just been so great to me. But my question for you guys is, is it all bad? Where's the line? You know, you know, obviously, like the stuff you guys mentioned about it getting very weird and perverted. You know, obviously, that's a no-no. We've interviewed people on the show. No, I'm not name dropping right now. But we've heard some really weird things that they get in their DMs some very, like strange stuff. So where's the line?  From someone who's in the business right now that is trying to put food on the table and have like, face a former tag partner or face a former faction member? And then, you know, obviously, this very darkweb kind of stuff that you mentioned, like, where’s the line? 
 
Risa: The line is at the comfort level of every individual performer, but unfortunately, that line is in a different place for everybody. And so, it's infinitely complicated because there are infinite amounts of wrestling personalities out there, and some of them totally fine with sex work. Some of them like me. I was very bothered that I had even been approached for that. I was very offended and immediately incredibly uncomfortable. And if it hadn't have been a woman that was asking me, if it had been a man, that approached me, I would have knocked him the fuck out. And I'm not, you know, trying to be badass or anything like that would have been my reaction because like how dare you? Because it was a woman I was just immediately uncomfortable. Because to me being approached by a woman is basically a woman being like, Hey get in on this, and I’m vouching for this. And even if that's the case, and I'm sure I'm really honestly sure that there is plenty of custom stuff that is done in an environment where it's actually safe. And in a place where you don't necessarily have to ever speak or be in contact with the person who's asking for it. Like you can, put all of those like checkpoints in. But for my personal comfort level, any approaches too much, because to me, that's not what I'm here for. I'm here for wrestling. What customs is, to a large extent is sex work. That's not what I'm here for. So some people are totally fine with that. And it makes a ton of money makes. It a ton more money than any wrestler is ever going to get. Hotdogs and handshakes is a used to be at least a pretty frequent payment. But it's very difficult to say where that line is. And it's I think I was kind of bothered by how normalized it was being kind of a person who hadn't been involved for a very long time. Like there are people who've been in the business for years. And like, to your point, Rob, you'll hear you know, the people that you're interviewing will tell you like the things that come into my inbox; the things that people request of me. And to them. I don't think that that's not the mentality, they're just like, I'm gonna shoot my shot and see what happens. I'm gonna just ask, and maybe they'll say yes. And that's as far as they'll think about it. Because to what to Jen's point, a lot of these people tend to be tend to be older, because if you're young, you probably don't have the money to be making this ask. So it tends to be, you know, a slightly older crowd that watched wrestling for years and years when it was Bra and Panty matches. So now they're not seeing it anymore. And they're like, Well, why can I see the Bra and Panty stuff anymore? And so they're like, well, I'm gonna ask, because the older you get, the bolder, you get. And so they're like, well, I'm not gonna not ask, because that's what I want. But they're not thinking about the implication of what asking, even does. I mean, I'm in my 30s. I was, I was not cool. Very not cool with being asked. But I'm okay. Like, it's not remotely the worst thing that's ever happened to me. But imagine if you're, like, 17-18 years old, and you're going to wrestling school, and this is your whole world. And then somebody asks you that, and tries to, make it seem like, it's no big deal. That would that would have rocked my world as an 18 year old. And so, you know, a lot of this talent really, really young.
 
Jen: Yeah, I think that's a great point, um, especially for the young people. And the new people in the business is that, like, we're seeing. This is such a sort of, and I've never had anybody talk about it, or approach it in the business in a way where it was like, undercover or trying to get anybody to do something that they didn't want to do. And I think, in a lot of ways, it's, it is wonderful that it is at your own personal discretion. That's the great thing about things being, you know, an independent contractor is that, you know, if you're like, hey, that's not my jam, then you don't have to do that. But I think money is very alluring to people. And I think also, like, you're saying, this is an environment where things are your whole world. So, it can often you know, and they conversations that people talk about getting into things that that are specifically sex work, is that sometimes that can be a very slippery slope. And before you know it, you know what, you know, what are you doing for what? But I don't want to, you know, say that, like all customs of sex work, because I think there are those things that are very innocuous and are fine. But there's not really like, you know, like you're saying, like, just as having this conversation is going to shed a lot of light on this subject for a lot of people. And I think we all just need to be focused on taking care of each other because that's best and the right thing to do. So I think things need to be honest, and I think those conversations need to be like really clear with people that are new and coming into the business.
 
Risa: Yeah, I don't think it's like a dirty little secret or anything. Everybody is so used to it. Everybody is so jaded about it. People are being like, there's people who have told me that they get people who message them and it starts out just like, “I'm really a big fan." It starts out really innocuous. And then it ends up being like cyber-wrestling, which is apparently a thing that they're like, “Oh, yeah, put me in a chokehold baby.” And it's like, Oh, God, get the fuck out of here. Come on. Sexting, basically. But it's like wrestle sexting. But it's, I don't know it. It's such a broad spectrum. And it's definitely not all sex work. A lot of it is just like, hey, especially, you know, Jen was talking earlier, like, we're in a COVID time right now, there's not a ton of actual shows running. So if I'm a person with a couple 100 extra bucks, and it's just like, hey, if you two are comfortable getting into a room with each other, I would love to pay you just to see a match, because there's just, I mean, if you've been watching, WWE lately is not so great. The quality, the quality of what we're left with is not super great, right now, unless you get to go out to an actual show. In which case, you know, performers like Jen are working their asses off because they know, like, Hey, we might be the only wrestling for a month. So I'm gonna make it count. You just you just really want to be there and you really want to be involved. But it can really be a slippery slope kind of situation. And people don't know who they're asking when they're asking these things. They don't know the trauma that people might have had. And unfortunately, a lot of, you know, girls experience, you know, some kind of trauma in their life. And being asked and being put into that position or being, I don't think anybody's I really don't think anybody's being coerced by anyone in the industry. But if your inbox is constantly filling up with guys saying disgusting stuff to you, oh, I'm going to pay you for this, I'm going to pay for that. Like, that's gotta affect you. You know, like, that's got to, you know, mess you up at least a little bit.
 
Jen: So, and then there, I think because I definitely had my fair share of those inboxes people, and also, you know, for big cosplay, too, that was definitely a big thing. And, you know, people are kind of, there's people that are willing to do anything for money and people that are willing to pay you for anything. And I hate to say something like that. That’s the way the world goes round, but sometimes unfortunately, it is. Um, but I think, my thing that I think is that we have this kind of opportunity, right now with the COVID era, to, you know, to turn this into a great thing. I think we can really turn it into, like we're saying, there is stuff going on out there we have, We Want Wrestling is something that I'm involved in. Qhich is a taping that goes on and beyond used to do tapings that are similar to this. And now they're a nice healthy company. Um, but you know, there's we have tapings of matches that are organized by one of our trainers here. And then they're put on Patreon for people to subscribe to, but there are different levels of that too, whereas like you can if you know, if you're one of the top tiers of subscribers, you can write in and request a match. So that is really, you know, that is a custom match at that point. But what we're doing is organized and it's being, you know, overseen by someone who is, you know, a trainer here with us. So we know that we're in that safe space.
Risa: And by the way, it's gotten the possibility of doing this kind of stuff has only gotten safer over time. There's like an old adage that like the porn industry and like the sex work industry tends to be ahead of the curve on technology and whatever. I mean, now, every time I'm on Facebook, and I'm looking at wrestlers, profiles and stuff, there's like now there's OnlyFans accounts popping up. And what's there's another one too I can't remember the name of it, but there's like, two main ones now where people can just, there's like literally platforms now for transactions that used to be done in very underhanded and confusing and inappropriate ways. Now there's literally platforms for it. So by talking about it, I hope that it can be something… it just was one of the many things that the culture of silence in wrestling was covering up. And to Jen's point, this could be a healthy thing. This could be a good thing this could be this could actually be okay, as long as we're not like covering it up anymore, so that people are only finding out about it when they're being taken by surprise like me. Or when people start in boxing me and making really disgusting requests and stuff. Like that's not the way. It was like You know, when your parents sit you down and give you the talk you want, you want their parents to sit you down and give you the talk, you don't want to find out a horrible way in school. You know, and I mean, it's, I would rather us be kind of bringing it out in the open and having a healthy discussion of it and saying, like, Look, this is what it, this is what it can unfortunately be. But on the plus side, this is something that if you feel empowered to do it, and you feel well adjusted to do it, and you have very clear lines of your own, in which you're in control, you can do whatever it is that you want. But not being exposed to it in the right way can be traumatizing, whereas being open and honest about it. And being more pragmatic about it can actually be beneficial.
 
Rob: Absolutely. Real quick. So I'm thinking about this and to Jen's point, again, as I found out many times my life, very ignorant. But I you know, when you when we talk about these, these matches, where it's, you know, we can have one person versus the other person, or we can make these matches, you mentioned Patreon. You mentioned, we want wrestling, I think I saw recent I think it was we were wrestling, I saw a matchup that I was like, oh, cool, like these guys are finally, like fighting. That's really cool. And in this, like, we keep saying in this 2020-era, where we don't really have live events, we don't have as much wrestling. Luckily, here in New Jersey, I've been going to like a show every weekend, you know, safely of course. But I've been very fortunate. I've seen some really cool things and had some cool opportunities. But I think also the way that I looked at it, when we started on this topic was like, “Hey, this is a way for fans to get the pencil.” I've rarely had the opportunity to get the pencil. I know a lot of indie wrestlers, like want to get the pencil, you know, for their, for their character for their career, all that kind of stuff. We all do. So that's the way I've always looked at it. Um, so you guys kind of mentioned this, you know, I asked where the line was, but what is the healthy way to do this? Because like, I feel like now this word has like such a negative connotation. Like, we do have Patreon we do have We Want Wrestling, like what about like, just like the fans that just like wanna watch like, two guys fight or two chicks fight or guy fight a chick or whatever it is storyline wise?
 
Jen: It's hard to say because it was it we don't have, like, we don't have a ton of things that are structured, and you kind of don't know what is what, at this point. And you also don't know the quality of what you're getting, unless you have, you know, like a preview of it. So you have something where you're like, hey, go watch, this is what you know, this is whatever it is, and companies stuff, like, you know, go take a look at it. And then you're like, oh, okay, I can see that this is wrestling. Or okay, I see that this is two chicks rolling around in their underwear or two dudes that are sitting in holds for an uncomfortably long time. That's really, a good way to identify it. So I think we're really right now we're on the cusp of this just starting to happen, where people and companies are kind of getting the spark, and the idea to go out there and do this and like an awesome way. To go out and do this and make it good. And there's, you know, there's also like the rise of, you know, I'm obviously very passionate about theatrical matches. And that's something that's happening. There is one of the companies that does this, I think they're called Philly Street Fights. They're on YouTube, and they do some theatrical matches that are kind of fun. There's lots of theirs, I think opportunities for things to be done really, really well, kind of using the same format and using the same platform. I don't think that it's ever going to go away. That people are going to, you know, want things for their own gratification, whether it be like, you know, very outwardly sexual, or if it's just a matter of like, a weird control thing. Like a kink. Yeah, like, that's always gonna be there. And I don't think that, you know, I don't think that our action should be to, like, Oh, God, we got to stamp this out, because I don't necessarily, I haven't had the experience where I've known where the it's been really hurting anybody. But I think like I said, open honest, conversation is always the best way to kind of, like, get stuff on the table and just make people aware of like, Hey, this is a thing, you know, be aware of it, watch out for yourself. Watch out for each other.
 
Risa: Right. We kind of have as much as COVID blows, obviously. We kind of are now in a in an interesting and unique place where all the stuff that you always wished you could do, but you couldn't necessarily do it in one match in part of a nine match card, where specific beats have to be hit at specific times. And specific storylines have to happen. I mean, if you strip all of that stuff away, and you go I just really want to do a match where this happens. Like to Jen's point about theatrical matches and stuff like you can you can actually do that now and just do it as a one off. So I think if we kind of start looking at wrestling a little bit more broad-mindedly, where we're not thinking about it in the traditional, you know, there's going to be a nine match card, and there's going to be an intermission in the middle. If we kind of rip away that structure and just go okay, but what do we actually want to do? Well, what do we really just want to do if we didn't have any of those construction. Like, you have the potential for some really cool stuff. And you know, what? As much people who are, "In the business,” love to talk crap about people who are not in the business. Oh, they're just a fan. Oh, they're just a fan. I've never subscribed to that. I think it's elitist bullshit. Because you know, what, everybody who's in the business started as a fan. So to talk shit on people who are just trying to be where you are, and they are currently where you were, that's kind of I always found that to be mean-spirited and shitty. So I think, yeah, the fans, right. And the fans are now in a position where you know, you could be taking that money and go, I'm a huge fan of a Mother Endless, I'm going to give her money to do whatever she wants. I just want to be able to let her do it. I'm gonna fund her Patreon. And make sure she can just put on whatever match because I love her. And I think she's so cool. I don't care what she puts together, because I know it's going to be awesome. Like, we're now in that kind of era where we can we have that flexibility right now, because there are so many shows not running, which is the potential for that is really amazing.
 
Jen: Yeah, amazing. That's a good point. Like there is nothing, and I say this every time I have put a team together in business and lead a group of people in a business, is that there is no business without the customer. And that's what fans are. The fans are the customers. So there wouldn't be as much as people love wrestling. There wouldn't be any wrestling if there wasn't any fans. And now there's just needs to be that kind of different way to reach the fan. And I think those platforms are there. And it's just kind of like the customers is almost kind of paved the way for this really cool thing that I think is we're you know, is going to be the dawn of kind of the new thing in wrestling.
 
Marissa: How do you think it would affect the wrestling community and the fans and the wrestlers in the industry, If there was like a strict no sexual objectification policy, or some sort of some sort of, I don't know, way to implement the lack of sexualizing people and put it into practice? Do you think that that would affect the industry?
 
Risa: Well, I don't think that's honestly possible, because the unfortunate flip-side of there's no rules, and we're now in the Wild, Wild West of wrestling, where we can all just propose whatever we want. And if we have the money, we can do it. Unfortunately, that leaves the door wide open for people to just continue to inbox you crazy shit. When we talk about all the matches that we could potentially be doing without the constrictions of doing it for a specific Wrestling Federation. Like that's the really good freedom. The adverse freedom is people with these new platforms, with people having Patreon and OnlyFans accounts, and you know, cameos, and all this kind of stuff, is that people now feel more empowered than ever to make really inappropriate asks. And so I don't know that there's a way that you can just cut that out. I think realistically, the only thing to do is to try to change wrestling culture from the inside, to not put up with that kind of shit as much anymore. And to kind of try to be more protective of each other because you're never going to have fans stop saying disgusting stuff to you. It's just unrealistic to try to control fans. But in terms of actual wrestling, like any organization, the change kind of comes from the top, we really kind of need… You know, if WWE wants to continue to be top dog in the Wrestling World, they really got to get their shit together and start really modeling the behavior. Like it or not, they're old and they're dinosaur-ic, and a lot of people have a problem with them. And AWS, the future. But WWE is still on top, and that's the reality for as long as it is. So until it stops being the reality. They are the standard bearers. So if they're not acting, right, which they're not right now; if they're not acting, right, I cannot foresee everybody else suddenly getting their shit together. Maybe on an individual Federation level you'll have, you know, like, you know, Titan Championship Wrestling. They're trying their hardest with the Goddesses Of War. They're trying really hard to be above board. They have improvements that they could always be making. You know, any smart Federation will be aware of that and will be constantly working on, but they're trying as hard as they can to make sure that they're creating a safe environment for the talent. On an individual Federation level, that's great. But I can't assume that everybody is going to take that accountability on to themselves without being prompted in really unfortunate ways. Such as what happened with the, you know, SpeakOut, #speakingout. So I think a lot of it is, we need to, you know, I've never not been vocal, but, you know, remain, you know, people like Jen and I need to remain vocal about these things, try to be action oriented. Try to be solutions oriented, and make people feel like, you know, this is not the hardest thing in the world to do, because it's not. But we need, WWE and AEW, and Impact. I mean, they're the ones on TV, so as long as they're the ones on TV with big multimillion dollar contracts, and whatever they're going to be looked to. So it's a, you know, like any organization trying to make cultural changes, it's modeling from the top and grassroots work from the bottom, and hopefully it meets together and then you have a better culture. A more inclusive culture.
 
Jen: It's weird, because there is definitely, like a kind of, like, an unfair standard and stigma that happens with the customs where, you know, I had people say, Well, don't do customs, you should never do customs, you know, it's not good for your reputation in wrestling. And then the same person turns on the TV and is looking at, you know, Charlotte Blair and talking about, you know, like, how, you know, expletive, expletive. I just like to get in there. You know, so I think that people just, you know, and in the same breath will like, sexualize somebody. But at the same time, condemn somebody for kind of being… there's a disconnect. Yes. That's like, I was like that when I had that experience when that happened. And so and somebody was like, No, no, no, don't do customs. And then at the same time, was watching, you know, WWE and sexualizing somebody. I was like, Man, this is this is just what this shit is.
 
Risa: And some further record some a lot. A lot of people have done customs work. Your favorite wrestlers have probably done customs work. That doesn't mean that they've gone full on pornographic. But I can nearly guarantee you that the people that you idolize your top 10 people, probably at least two of them have done some kind of customs work. Seth Rollins has done customs work. You can find it, it's on YouTube. Okay, it's there. I'm not giving anything away, you can look them up and see pictures of his dick too. I mean, it's just out there. He's okay with it. At this point, he makes millions of dollars, he's fine. But that's what it's like when he was younger. And when he was hungry, and when he wasn't signed yet. And he was just a semi-popular indie guy, that's when that's when they're hitting your inbox the hardest. Is when you're a rising star. And for him, he didn't do anything gross. It was just a really awkward looking match with very inappropriate ring gear. That's all it was. Um, but that was, you know, that was his decision. He was very young, maybe he would say now that he was too young to have made that decision. Only by being really open about this and bringing it up and kind of having these sort of conversations with these younger talent, that's the only way that they're going to come out of it unscathed or not confused or not traumatized. I mean, if you're getting asked to do weird stuff, and you say yes to one thing, but you're young and impressionable, then the one thing can quickly become Yeah, but would you also do this? Yeah, I mean, the possibility for escalation is high, the younger you are and the more vulnerable you are. So there's nothing at all wrong with sex work. There's nothing wrong with it at all. It's a very honest way to make a living. But the point is, how you are introduced to sex work has a lot to do with whether or not sex work is good for you specifically. And so that line is only something that only you can determine as an individual. And that's something that only you can determine, when you're in a place where you feel like you're not being coerced, or hassled, or, you know, pushed into it in any way. So, only by being very open and honest about it as a culture, are we going to be able to equip these young wrestlers to be able to handle it when they ask does come. Because it's going to come.
 
Marissa: So what gets me, and I agree with you on everything that you've I mean, sex work is very honest. You know, you, your hearts literally on your sleeve. But, you know, I guess my concern is that the people who are so young and so new and so hungry, will be lured in by the money. So I guess, like you said, it's about setting that boundary. How do we teach the newbies the youngins, the people who are going to be approached and will most likely not be equipped with the strength and boldness to be like, hell No, that's not my thing. You know, how do we equip them with those boundaries, setting confidence tools?
 
Rob: Literally the same brain Marissa. Literally same question.
 
Jen: I think that goes back to our education and something that when I talk to young people, old people, and old people about sexual harassment, one of the things that I always talk about is setting boundaries. And how to do that with someone in a way that's like clear cut, and dry. And just like straight across. Sorry, there's a loud car going by. My apologies. But yeah, so setting, people need to know how to set their boundaries in wrestling. And that's not just a conversation in wrestling notes about something like customs, but it's a lot of times about something like safety, too. So it's been a very important conversation that needs to be had with wrestlers is that how do you tell people that you're not comfortable taking a move, because you don't want to look like you're not the cool guy by not taking their big move. But if you're not sure that you can take that safely, you need to be able to have that conversation with them. And you need to have that confidence to set your boundaries, or you may end up very severely injured. So in exactly that same way, you're going to have that same talk about something that you wouldn't be comfortable doing. And that's the same thing with angles too. Because a lot of times, you might get put in an angle in a regular show that you might not be comfortable in it, whether it be a sexual thing, a political thing or anything else. It's really important. Because what we do in wrestling is entertainment. Things can be so up in the air, and they can be so different than things that you would encounter in a school environment or business environment. So, just teaching people how to have those conversations. And one of those being comfortable being uncomfortable things and learning how to say no and a polite way that sometimes you're not like hell no, oh my god, why would you want me to do that? That's disgusting. Or just like, Hey, you know, that's not really for me. Um, but it's about finding, I like to teach people how to find information, how to ask open ended questions of other people. So if somebody approaches you, like, Risa had that experience. When somebody approaches you like that how to ask, what is this? Because it isn't, it wasn't very clear, until you looked at the paper and saw all those things. But how to ask those open ended questions of people when they are approaching you with things so you can find out exactly what you're getting into there.
 
Risa: I think it needs to be taught in the wrestling schools, honestly. I think that that needs to be part of the spiel of when you're a new student, or whatever. And your training, because just in the same way that any good wrestling school will prepare you about how to network and how to put yourself out there as a performer and make connections. Okay, but what are the implications of making those connections. Not all of those connections are going to, you know, not all of those encounters are going to go the way that you want them to go. And the more popular you get, the more unfortunately, in demand, you're going to be in ways that you did not anticipate. So I think, yeah, I keep coming back to it. But in all ways, I would say this to fans, as well as to fellow performers. It's just be considerate and be kind and don't assume that you know anything about what the person that you're asking or talking to is going through. And can you can you be helpful to them instead of harmful to them at any given time. Because a lot of it, fans just really want to connect with the performers that they love. And they're not necessarily going at it in a in a way that they think that they're being bad. Because why would they want to do that they wouldn't want to hurt the person that they care about and they look up to and whatever. They wouldn't want to hurt that person's feelings. They're not always aware it disconnect sometimes. Rob, did you hear about the whole thing with Sonia Deville how a fan broke into her apartment and tried to kidnap her, like last week?
 
Rob: Yeah, I saw the thing and I'm sitting there I read the story. I'm like, Oh, she could she could handle it. She's touchy. But then I saw like he had weaponry and all this stuff. And it's very crazy and crossing the line. And obviously, you know, thought, you know, thoughts are with Sonia and I think Mandy was there at the time, as well, or roommates or nieces and nephews involved as well.
 
Risa: Yes, somebody was there and they and they peaced out in the car and called the cops. But that's how you can tell that he was not in his right mind. He was still there by the time the cops showed up. He didn't even have the mental wherewithal to, like get out of there and not incriminate himself. He admitted to everything. He's just so deeply obsessed with her. And you know, these things that start out really innocent can turn really, really bad sometimes. So, you know, I will gladly tell someone who says things that are inappropriate to me to, you know, go screw or whatever. And there are varying degrees of niceness that I will deploy depending on how they come at me. But I don't know that I always am getting through. So I think a lot of this, female wrestlers and female talent are not nearly the only people being asked these kinds of things. I think that they probably get hit more often for these kinds of requests. But men, all male talent get approached about this kind of stuff eventually, as well. So it's men and women that are being asked, but the people asking overwhelmingly are men. And so I feel like male talent, who are looked up to a lot, like, you know, women shouldn't be the only ones having to field these kinds of requests, and like, figure out what to do about them. Like, we need, we need as many allies as possible. And it goes both ways as well. Like if you know, there are a couple of people, a couple of younger guys that I know who are in wrestling, and if they ever were uncomfortable, and they came to me, I would try my best to help them. And I would like to think that it goes both ways. But you know, we really have to look out for each other. And men, like if I'm on Facebook, and I'm being harassed, there are several male wrestlers that I feel like I can tag in and be like, this person's being really awful, can you like help me out here? And unfortunately, a lot of the times, you know, it takes one guy talking to another guy to be like, “Hey, bro, that's really not actually appropriate, you're really making that person uncomfortable.” They really kind of have to hear it from another guy a lot of the time. So Rob, we know that, that you're an ally, and I feel like I can tag you in if necessary on things. And I feel like you would, you know, you would have my back. And there needs to be more there need to be more people like that. And, you know, if you're a male ally, you know, be super vocal about it. Because we need to know where you are, when the chips are down or being like made to feel very uncomfortable or whatever, like, we're just looking for a friendly face. So more vocal about it, you can be in the more visual about it, you can be, that goes a long way.
 
Jen: Yeah, and one of the things that I tried to do is, also I tried to talk with the younger guys that are here. We do some logic experiments in you know, all share with them like too, you know, if it's not something that's like, too, super inappropriate. But like, hey, this is what was put into my inbox, or, you know, how would you field this, if this came to you? And then we have those open and honest conversations, because I think guys viewpoints from what I've experienced, and the feedback that I've gotten from a lot of the younger performers, is very different, I think, from the girls. And I think that just goes to, you know, kind of chauffeur society where a lot of the guys are like, Oh my god, yeah, I don't care do that for whatever amount of money. Like, that doesn't bother me at all. And then, you know, for me with a thing that I like to do with them is, you know, we talk about it like, Well, you know, let's think about how you would feel about this five years from now. How would you feel about this? If your mom saw it? How would your grandma feel about this? How would your father, your uncle or your teachers? What would they say if they saw this so that you cannot just get it's not just a condemnation of this is right, or this is wrong, but really helping people find out where their boundaries are and where their moral compass is on it. So it's not just a like, let me jump at this money kind of situation.
 
Risa: I watch a lot of really terrible movies like, you watch them because it's like, it's great, how bad they are, like, here's how not to make a movie. And I actually used to teach a film class where one of the classes was I would show a really terrible movie and then have the class discuss what about it made it not a good movie? And occasionally in those really awful movies, you see, like a girl with her tits out and I'm like, Man, bet she regrets that now. I bet she does. And it's those kinds of that's the kind of decision she's young and perky. And she was probably coerce. And now, you know, its 30 years later, and there's a VHS to digital transfer of her boobs, on the internet forever. Like, these are the kinds of things that people are being approached about at a very young age. And, you know, thank God that we have people like Jen, in the locker room and at the training school helping these people out and asking these kind of questions. but there needs to be a Jen in every locker room.
 
Marissa: A Jen and a Risa.
 
Risa: So yeah, we can't be in every locker room at one time. So we, we need, we need a lot of people to, to kind of step up and say that there'll be that person that they'll have those kinds of courageous conversations.
 
Marissa: That's awesome. I had something I wanted to say, and I don't remember what it was now. So sorry.
 
Risa: I know. I'm sorry. We're like throwing so much stuff at you guys. Rob. I did. I did want to bring something up to you, Rob. Because when we initially started having this conversation, I feel like you were kind of gob smacked that this was a thing that was happening. Like, did we ruin wrestling for you at all?
 
Rob: No, I mean, I mean, you hit it right on the head. I think both of my questions initially kind of summed it up. But it was like, oh, yeah, I want to see this guy fight. This guy. Like, that makes a lot of sense. You know, like, they used to tag together. Like, that's cool. It makes a lot of sense. It's 2020. We can't really have shown like putting food on people's table. Yeah, no problem. And then it got weird. I learned something today.
 
Marissa: So we need a Jen and Risa and every locker room, and we need more wrestling fans like Rob.
 
Risa: Yeah. In the crowds. Yeah, yes, definitely. I think if I could just make one plea to fans, if any fans are listening, please. Especially now in COVID times, like, please don't assume that you can just run up and give me a hug. Just because you spend, you know, hours like sifting through the photos I have on Facebook doesn't mean that I have any idea who you are.
 
Rob: I apologized for that, Risa.
 
Risa: Man, it's what I'm saying. Like there is there can really kind of be a disconnect between the dialogue you have in your head.  But you know, unfortunately for guys, the way that that really that hyper, you know, obsession is sometimes it can kind of turn really weird and awkward and potentially very inappropriate. And in the case of the guy who's obsessed with Sonia Deville, potentially even violent. Whereas I think women just like write fanfiction. Like they're very much more chill about their obsessions. I think guys could kind of take a page out of their book in terms of fandom, like go on Tumblr and see what like, healthy and super obsessed fandom can look like. And you know, not be, you know, they can be as gross as they want to be because it's fiction. They're not you know, you don't these are not people who are like stalking their favorite wrestlers, and going into their house, and sitting in their house and waiting for the cops to show up
 
Marissa: Very aggressive side note, Tumblr is actually owned by Porn-hub. So, yeah, just read what you see on Porn-hub, on Tumblr.
 
Jen: And that was news to me. I learned something today, too.
 
Marissa: I’m a wealth of dumb knowledge.
 
Risa: It is. That is really interesting, though. Yeah, there was a big controversy about that, but I don't remember what specifically it was. I think it actually was like Tumblr and Porn-hub were like trying to do something that was actually kind of sex positive together. I don't remember. But I think we're in a place where like, Backpages was a relatively legitimate and, more or less, safe kind of way for sex work transactions to happen. And now that that's gone now we have, we are adapting so you know, if you want to engage in sex work and you are an adult and you are not operating out of a place of mental illness, and you're of sound mind and body, and you just want to show it off and flaunt it and make buku bucks doing it, you know, power to you. There's so many ways now it's actually pretty amazing. It's just, you know, have those honest discussions about it beforehand, and you know, educate yourself about it. Google has everything good and bad. So you can find out the pros and cons of just about anything. But being open and having honest discussions about it. Like you know, finding out about custom  wrestling matches shouldn’t be just like a, you know, a whisper game that happens. It should be something that is talked about because you know, it would love for people to know that that's coming before that starts hitting their inbox. I would love for I would love for people to be aware that this is a thing. And that with fame no matter how minor, there comes inappropriateness. So I'm really thankful to both of you for agreeing to have us come on and speak about this.
 
Jen: Yes. I'm really glad that we have this conversation as well.
 
Marissa: Thank you guys so much for being here. I know I learned a ton. I can probably speak for Rob that he also learned a ton.
 
Rob: Accurate.
 
Marissa: And I think that talking about this stuff, like you said Risa, is really, really important because not only does it educate fans and people that are outside the Wrestling World, but it also educates the people that want to be in the Wrestling World. So thank you guys for being so open and honest. And thank you, Jen for working with people and teaching them about customs and setting boundaries. And thank you Risa for being such a prominent voice in the community. And thank you Rob for being an awesome super fan who just wants to innocently watch people wrestle because he enjoys it.
 
Rob: That's all I have, Marissa.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, wrestling, wrestling world, nwa, nwa wrestling, harassment in wrestling, world of wrestling, national wrestling alliance, daisy deville,  wresting, world wide wrestling, online wrestling, women in wrestling, women and abuse in wrestling, women and speaking out, speaking out wrestling, wwe women, female wrestlers, ladies wrestling, gorgeous ladies of wrestling, Women in wrestling and sexual harassment, WOMEN IN WRESTLING ON SEXUAL HARASSMENT, SFW, accountability, accountability in wrestling, female wrestlers, female wrestling, female wrestlers and sexual harassment, customs, custom wrestling matches

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Married To A Narcissist: with BCP and Deborah McPhilemy

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome to the Healing From Emotional Abuse - Bob Culture Podcast Connection, where we are going to talk about intimate partner violence and spousal abuse. Because it's such an important topic, and we never really hear about it. People, you know, are nervous to come forward because of judgment and a lot of other things. So, we really wanted to hit this topic, and make sure people know that they're not alone. And, of course, I need to introduce my phenomenal co-host, Rob from the Bob Culture Podcast. Welcome on, Rob.
 
Rob: Hey, Marissa, what's up? It's always a pleasure to team up with you and get some good work done, have some good conversations and hopefully make a lot of progress. Always an honor.
 
Marissa: So today, we have the beautiful, incredible Deborah McPhilemy. She's an award-winning author, personal development trainer, and an empowering speaker. She's the author of the Relationship Magnet: Emotional Intelligence in a Nutshell for Parents and Teachers. And the Bears of Blueberry Forest EQ series for kids. Deborah is passionate about helping people to get to know themselves, so they can be themselves. She believes that life is way too short to be anyone else than yourself. In her self empowerment club, the selfieschool.me, she helps people to find courage to develop their confidence, and to let go of the fear that holds them back from being themselves. When she's not writing or teaching, she can be found spending time with her family, or traveling the world with her best friend and husband, Paul. Thank you so much for coming on today, Deb. I'm so excited to chat with you today.
 
Deborah: You’re very welcome. Thanks for having me. It's amazing to be here.
 
Marissa: Well, thank you guys, both, for being here. I'm really honored that we get to do this panel-type discussion about spousal abuse and abuse, in general. Even though it's not a great topic to chat about, it's still very, very important. So, Deb, would you mind starting by telling us your story?
 
Deborah: Yeah, my telling my story these days feels like it really was a very different lifetime ago. But what happened with me is that I found myself in a cycle of abusive relationships. And I only really woke up to when it got to the fourth relationship. I will speak about three, but then remember that I forgot about the fourth one, because it was just something I blanked out of my mind. But I got married really, really young. I was 17 years old. I grew up in a very conservative home, a very religious home, and very naive. And the first time I had sex, I fell pregnant. And I didn't want to shame the family. So, you know, we decided to get married. My husband wasn't much older than me. He was 21 at the time. Decided to get married. And it was okay for about the first year. You know, it was first love. It was all excitements of things: new things, and new relationship, and baby, and all sorts of things. But for the first year of our marriage, we lived with my parents. And then when we moved out, my son was about a year old when the abuse started, we moved into our own apartment. And he'd been out drinking all day, watching cricket in the sun, and came back. And I was so shocked because it was just... It was so violent. And I think I must have said something to him that provoked the situation or that he didn't like. But he just, honestly it was just crazy. He started throwing things and bashing things. And fortunately, at that stage, he didn't actually hit me. But I got such a fright. And I immediately ran away, took the baby and went and stayed with my mom for a week. But then started thinking, “Oh, well, you know, maybe it was just because he was drunk. Maybe it was just that behaviour because of that.” And I went back to him, because I did love him. But then the abuse just started getting worse and worse and worse. And then it started becoming when he wasn't drinking, or what happened when he wasn't drinking, or it would happen first thing in the morning. You know, it was a case of anything which would spark him off; and I kept trying to find out if there was a trigger. Was it something I was doing wrong? Did I say something wrong? Do I not love him enough? Do I not? So, you know, I kept questioning myself because I kept thinking that it was something I was doing. I was the one that was provoking him or saying something that he didn't like. And this carried on for about five years. But then I had another daughter, another child. I had a little girl, little baby girl. And she must have been about four months old, or something. And we got to a situation, again, where his favourite thing to do was he would bash my head against the wall. Would always grab my head in the front and then bash it.  And I got to the point where I'd had enough, because I'd left before and I came back. And I left before and I came back. And it was this whole cycle of leaving, coming back leaving, coming back. And, when, this particular day, I was in the kitchen, and he only came over two o'clock in the morning. When he’d made the date with me and said, “Well, you know, get ready or get somebody to look after the kids.” And he didn't come home. And eventually came home at two o'clock in the morning. And I was like, “Why? What did I do to deserve this?” Or “Why did he do that? Why would you make plans with me and not come back?” But that was the start of me realizing that I've got to the point of having enough. And we were standing in the kitchen, and I said, “Why on earth would you ask me out and then not come and fetch me?” And I remember saying to him, “You son of a bitch.” And he was so angry that he said “Leave my mother out of this!” And he bashed my head against the wall. But I remember trying to make my way to the bedroom and just seeing stars, and all. I was, you know, about to faint. And it was black. And I layed on the bed and I was like, “Oh my God, my head is pounding. I'm in so much pain, but I don't want to pass out because I've got two children in the house.” But what that did for me was, I was so angry that the next time I had to work, and I went to work, and I said, “That's it. I've had enough. I've had enough of this man beating my head against.” I've had enough of the accusations and the pain, and all of that. And then I started making arrangements to leave. But because of me trying to leave before, he would always threaten me. The time before that, that I wanted to leave, he said to me, “If you ever try and leave again with the children, I will kill you and the children.” So, there was always that threat hanging over my head. So, this time I got a hold of my dad and I said to him, “I have to leave. I can't do this anymore. I can't take this anymore.” So, we packed up the house, and we left while he was at work. And my dad installed burglar bars and gates on the doors and everything. So, we left, you know. And then obviously he found that we left and he came knocking on the door, but I was quite safe in my dad's home. So that was kind of the start. And then I waited, for about seven years, before I got married again, because I didn't want to make another mistake. And within a week or two realized that “Oh my gosh.” I was in an abusive, but a very emotionally, mentally, emotionally abusive relationship. There wasn't physical violence with him. But it was insane. The mind games, the financial abuse, the control. The “You can't wear that. You can't wear makeup. You can't hug your children. You can’t hug your brothers.” It was, it was just horrific. And that one ended, as well. My mom was diagnosed with cancer and she was dying very rapidly. And I said to him, you know, “I want to go and spend the night at the hospice with my mom. My dad was exhausted.” And he said, “Well, if you leave me to go and take care of your mom, then it's over.” And I said, “Well, then it's over.” I said, “This is my mom, and she’s about to die.” So that was the second one and then I got out of that one. Once again, left with nothing. My children and I drove away in our car without bedding, without clothing. Drove away from that situation. And then the third time: so there was one in between that a guy that I was engaged to, we didn't get married, got out of there. But then the third time, was when I really woke up to the pattern: that I was the common denominator. I just got married, again. And the reason that I kept getting married was because of my religious upbringing. You know, we were told, or brought up, that you don't have sex before marriage; you can't really have a good relationship unless you're married to the person; that you, know, God won't bless you unless you do it the proper way. So, there was just all that stuff going on, as well. So, I got married to this guy and he was annoyed because I wasn't giving him attention. My daughter had her friends over, and I was hanging out with the teenagers. And I walked into the bedroom, and he just lost his rag. And he had me up on the throttle of my, you know, my throat against the wall. And as he did that, my daughter walked in, and I saw her face. And I went, “I cannot believe I'm back here again.” And so, the next day he went to work, and my daughter and her friends and I, we all packed the house like crazy. Our clothes and stuff, once again in the car, ran away to safety. And my son, by then, was out of the house and grown up. So we went and stayed with him until we could find a place with just my daughter and I could stay. But it was that moment that made me realize that I was the one that kept getting back into these relationships over and over and over again, and attracting this very type of person into my life. And, by then, I was already an emotional intelligence trainer. So, it's not like I hadn't learned all the stuff. But I just hadn't discovered that my own trigger, my own lack of self worth, self esteem, and this belief I had about men and relationships was the reason that I kept inviting these people back into my life. So, I spent a whole weekend uncovering and debunking everything. Finding out why I believed the way I did. Where it came from. And it was only after I did that, that I broke the cycle. Got out of that relationship very quickly with an annulment, which is amazing. And then once again, you know, carried on with my life. And, I think it was 10 years after that situation, that I got married again. And I'm very, very happily married to the most wonderful, loving, compassionate, incredible human being that you could ever meet. So that's my story in a nutshell.
 
Rob: You make me believe in love again. That's amazing to hear. You've been through so much. And a couple of things here and there that you said that I could definitely relate to. I want to talk about, obviously, like you said that you're in these relationships; you think there's trust; you think they're, you know, like your ride-or-dies, as we say here. You know, best friends, you can trust people. And then you kind of see these red flags: for instance, people not coming home or the constant lies. Can you tell us, I mean, obviously, you've experienced it in so many different ways. Can you tell us about some of the early red flags that people can kind of look out for?
 
Deborah: I've got a whole page of it in my book, Relationship Magnet, about saying to people, you know, if you've got these red flags, because that's exactly it. You know, this thing about what we do when somebody pays us so much attention in a very short space of time. And they think you’re the best thing since sliced bread; they’re just amazing; they want to do everything for you; you’re incredible; they want to see you all the time; they want to do everything for you. They just put you on this massive, big pedestal. Now when you've got a low self esteem, you think this is amazing. “Oh my god, he thinks I'm so attractive. And I'm this and I'm that.” So, we kind of think that they besotted with us. But in my experience, in all these relationships, and all the research I did when I wrote the book, was that that is their way of getting you into their clutches very, very quickly. And making you fall for them fast and hard. So, when somebody makes such a big fuss of you, and then they want to move things too quickly in the relationship, that's always a red flag. Because if somebody believes that you are worth it, and you're worth waiting for, they're not going to pressurize you into something; they're not going to push you into it; they're not going to put a time limit on it. So that is always the biggest red flag that I always say to people: that is the one that you need to pay the most attention to very quickly.
 
Rob: Absolutely. Go ahead, Marissa, I'm sorry. No, I'm just sitting here nodding my head. I was like, I wish I met you 10 years ago, Deb. But go ahead.
 
Marissa: No, I was just going to comment, because I think that is such a profound realization. To be very honest, a lot of people don't see that. And I think that, you know, they integrate into our routines. And that's how they get us. They learn everything they need to know about us. So they can systematically, you know, insert themselves into our lives, and make it as if we can't have that routine or do anything in life without them. So, I think that was a really, really good point. Thank you for bringing that up.
 
Deborah: Yeah it is, you know, for them, it's all about mind games, as well. Because, you know, I remember with some situations they would hide the keys. And then they'd say, you'd say, but I said this. No, you didn't say that. And then they would play all these different games with you because it's a way of eradicating your self esteem. Just backing up on what you just said Marissa, where they make you believe that you can't do without them. And then things like. And then eventually all the things that they loved about you, they now can’t stand about you. And they'll make you look like the bad one. I remember my second husband, when he would… God, I mean, he didn't hit me. But the things he did. We were on our way; we worked together. And we were on our way to work one day in his van. And I was checking my messages on my cell phone, my mobile phone, and it was making like a clicking sound. And he said, “Can you not do that? Can you stop that?” And I said, “Well, I just quickly need to reply to this message.” The next thing, he pulled the car up, the van up, on the sidewalk, in the middle of a busy road; he opened the door; he leaned over me; opened the door, he lifted his legs, and he kicked me right out of the van onto the street. So absolute crazy things when we were in the car. He would start driving, if I didn't adhere to what he wanted me to do, or he didn't like something I said, he would drive like a maniac as if he was going to crash the car into something. And the more I would be “Please, can you slow down? I'm starting to feel scared.” Now, the more he would relish out of that experience, because he wants it to be in control. And then when he behaved like that, he would say to me, “If only you listened to me, Deborah. That would not have happened. If only you had done as I told you, that would not have happened.” And eventually your self esteem is so eroded, you lose so much confidence in yourself that you’re like, “Nobody's going to want me now. Nobody's going to love me. People are going to see how broken I am. Who's going to want somebody who's so broken?” So, it's part of their unconscious plan. I don't know if people do this consciously or not, because they are such broken people, but it's part of the plan to make you into something so worthless that you'll never want to leave them.
 
Rob: Absolutely. And you mentioned this a lot. And this is something I've learned from Marissa, a lot, is it's hard to understand when these things unfold. Like you really don't see them coming, you know. You trust somebody, you know. If something's going to happen, you know, you think it would be communication or conversation or anything like that. But you mentioned the word control a lot. And this is what Marissa has helped me understand. Can you talk to us a little bit about why people are the way they are? Why they try to manipulate these situations and literally control you?
 
Deborah: So, it always comes from a place of them not being in control of their own life. So, if you look at human behavior, and you go back to their childhood, you'll find that, because I did a whole section in my book about how people are made like that; how they’re created. Because it was very important for me to understand why people were like that. I mean, my whole thing is about human behavior. And so, for me, it was important, because also it was part of my journey of forgiving and not being angry and upset, and, you know, getting over the rage and all of that stuff. So, for me, I needed to know why they did it. So, basically, why people do it is that in their childhood, they get into situations where they have no control over their life. So, if you take a male versus a woman situation, like in mine, you'll also find that the person that hurt them the most is the person that they feel the most vulnerable with. So generally, if you look at relationships with men, it's often because they didn't have a good relationship with their mom. Or they might have had a good relationship with their mother, but then mom also had the power to hurt them. So, when they were possibly vulnerable, or when they controlled them, and they had no control of the situation. So, children generally then once you regain that control over their lives, when they've been out of control. So that's been what they grow up. So, when their wounds aren’t healed, they grow up that way. So, they have to exert their control over you, because that's the only way that they feel that they can get some control back over their own lives. And some power back in their own life. So, you'll find that most men who harm women are misogynists, and it's because of the wounds that they have picked up from a strong woman in their life as a child. Now, the opposite happens obviously with any sex: so whether it's male on male abuse, female on male. But it always comes to this stage. Or, should I say, it always comes from this area of lack within themselves. Where they don't have; there's a missing piece and they need to find it and they don't know how to find it. And therefore, you know, when you exert power over somebody else, if that's the only way you know, they feel like they’re somehow putting that missing link, gaping hole back into themselves. But it actually just makes it worse.
 
Rob: Wow. Deb, first of all, we usually save the promo for the end here. But where can we get this book? Because I'm picking it up.
 
Deborah: So, it's called the Relationship Magnet. And it's on sale through school.me. So, all my books and my programs and my courses are all on one platform, so you'd be able to get it there.
 
Rob: Got it.
 
Marissa: I'll post the link in the description for anybody else that wants it. I know I will also be picking up a copy of it. So, Deb, what did you do to help you heal from all of this? Because, I mean, the emotional wounds and the confidence blows, those are all things that stick. You know, I'm a big proponent that the physical abuse is awful. But the scars go away. The emotional abuse is what really sticks with you. So, what did you do to overcome all of that?
 
Deborah: Gosh, so much. It’s really, it's taken me a long, long time, even to the point that when Paul and I got married again, there was still stuff left over then that I had to deal with. But I can honestly say today that I'm completely and utterly whole. But when I started the very first thing I did was I joined the counseling group. And it was for divorced people, divorce care. And that's what actually led me to becoming a counselor. Because I waited seven years after my first marriage before, or after it ended, before I thought I needed to find some help. And I could see the repercussions in my children's lives. And, you know, my son had a lot of problems sleeping and fear and lack of confidence himself. And even though my daughter was really young, when I left. You could see, because there was still fighting going on even after the divorce for maintenance and support. And the control. Just him trying to control me and us in our lives still carried on for a very long time after the divorce. It was almost 18 years. So, there were a lot of things I had to do. I went for counseling. I've had hypnotherapy. I've used Emotional Freedom Technique. I've used the havening. I even, and I know this sounds really, really crazy, but, a couple of years ago in 2016, I still felt that I had a lot of fear. Because when I wrote my book, and I was very bold, I was the first person to talk out about it in South Africa. I was on TV. I was on the radio. I was just blasted everywhere in the press. And at the time, I thought well, this is amazing, because now other people are going to hear about this and don't have to be in their situation. And they can learn from what  I went through to prevent that. And there was a huge response from women who emailed me and said, “You know what? Because of you and speaking out, it's given me permission to leave my situation.” But what happened was, my first husband got married again. And he got married to a very controlling, strong woman. And she realized that she had made a mistake. So, in order for her to look better and not look silly, because she married an abuser. She then took on the role. She carried on the abuse of the way he had left off. So, there was this incredible backlash and bullying. And she would pretend to be somebody else and make comments on my books. And it was just a nightmare. And what happened was, when I moved to England, it was just an ongoing thing. So, my husband, Paul, my husband, he was the one that actually stepped in. And it was the first time that, besides my brothers, that there was another man that said, “You know what? Enough is enough. Somebody needs to help you with the situation.” And he basically reached out to them. And he said to them, “I've got the money. I've got the resources. I've got the full force of the law. If you do not stop bullying my wife, I will bring all of this stuff against you. The force of the law.” But, basically, what I'm saying is, it was the first time that I felt like somebody had my back. And because somebody had my back, I felt like I was enabled to really heal from all of this stuff. But interestingly enough, I still felt very vulnerable. I couldn't put myself out there. I cleaned up everything on Google, every single radio station, TV station, websites. I cleaned it up completely. I changed to my new married surname. I made it as if I did not exist. It took me a year to get Google to remove every single thing that had been mentioned about me. And then for a couple of years, I just licked my wounds. And I was like, “I don't want to put myself out there. I'm too scared. I'm too scared of the backlash.” Because, also what happened when I was on radio in South Africa, a lot of people would phone in. A lot of them would be good. But then a lot of men would phone in and go, “I can see why your husband beat you. Because you've got no social skills.” So, you're always going to get these haters, right, that say these awful things. When I was in England, I licked my wounds for a few years. And then I just said, “You know what? I can't live my life in hiding, because I know what my purpose is. My purpose is, as a speaker, as a person who writes books and a person who teaches others. I have to take back control of my life. I've got to take the power back of my life. I can't just hide.” Because it made me feel depressed. Because I wasn't being myself. So, I kind of started a process of doing all that. As I said, the hypnotherapy. I’ve done Emotional Freedom Technique. I saw various counselors and therapists. I can't even remember all of them. But the biggest one for me was in 2016, I wanted to do something epic, just to get rid of the fear that I still had. And a friend of mine said to me, “Why don't you do fire walking?” And I was like, “What? Why would I want to do fire walking? Are you crazy?” But she kept on at me. And she kept saying, “I really feel you need to do this.” And I was like, “Okay, well, I'll do a little bit of research.” And I found this company that's about four hours drive away from me. And the minute I saw what they wrote, and I saw the video, something resonated with me. I saw the video and I just started crying. And I thought, “This is it. I have to do this.” And I went and spent a weekend, and it was actually a firewalking instructor training course. And Steve, who runs it, was the same guy, well, he studied with the same guy Tyler(?) that Tony Robbins studied with. And we did, I think it was in the second day, we did a trust fall where you stand on a platform that's four meters high. So, of course, you're five foot or six foot on top of it. That seems really, really high. So, you've got to fall backwards into these people's arms that catch you. And that is where my true healing started from. Because that is what helped me to realize that I could trust people again. I could trust men again. I could trust myself. And since then, I've gone back every year. I'm now a fire walking instructor trainer. But it was all about breaking all those things that have been said over my life. Rebuilding my self esteem. Comparing myself to other people and going, “Well, actually, that person is amazing. But I have the same quality. So, I should be pretty amazing, too.” So, it really has been a very long process, a very long journey. It's taken a lot of modalities. But I can honestly and truly say to you that, as I sit here before my laptop, that I'm completely and totally and utterly whole. And it was done through a lot of different ways. There wasn't just one way for me to do it.
 
Rob: Wow, that's, incredible. I'm writing down all this stuff. You're my new favorite person. But I did want to ask you this, like a lot of things that you said resonated with me. You know, obviously, when something terrible does happen, you know, someone that you think you can trust, obviously that trust goes away. You know, people lose that trust, that merit. You tend to lose your faith in people, in general. So, when you use that metaphor about the trust fall, like I've literally said, you know what? I've fallen on hard times, or I got, you know, blindsided by things in life. My friends, my support system, were literally there to catch me and pick me back up, like I'm living it. And for you to use that trust fall example was just, like, it really resonated with me. It's perfect. And when you started the interview, you said, it feels like a lifetime ago. And you know, some of this stuff you've kind of blanked out, can you tell us a little bit more about where you are right now and feeling whole? It gives me a lot of hope.
 
Deborah: Well, the one thing I discovered because, you know, when you start looking at why you've been abused, it's because of something that happened in your childhood. So, when I traced it all back. I've been bullied as a child at the age of nine, it started. But also my older brother, he hated me, but not intentionally. But when he was a little boy, you know, you had all the attention and the love. And then the girl came along and he felt that I stole the attention away from him. And him and I spoke about it the one day. I mean, now he is my absolute best friend. But as a kid growing up, he tried to kill me a couple of times. You know, strangled me, tried to stab me with the scissors. It was just crazy. So, it's almost like when something happens to you, when your essence is damaged at a really young age and you're not healed, or you haven't healed from that trauma, it then carries on and on and on and on. But I even discovered, in my journey, that it was further than that. It was quite a horrific situation because I had suppressed a lot of things. Because you do. You suppress it; you don't know what's going on. And I think your mind only allows you to remember things when you're ready to deal with it. And about four years ago, I think it was just before I did the firewalking thing, I was driving along the road one day, and I've always been very, very scared of pedophiles, and people doing that to my grandchildren. And I was very scared of that being done to my kids. I always used to overreact. And I was driving on the road, and I saw a man and his son. And once again, I got the sick feeling in my stomach. It was about a two, three-year-old. Sick feeling in my stomach. And I say to myself, “Why? Why do you have this reaction?” And then suddenly, I asked myself. I said, “What happened to you?” And as I said that all these memories came flooding up of me being molested as a three-year-old by a very close family member. And so, the whole pattern of my life had been one of abuse from the age of three. And as I said, when you carry that with you, and haven't healed from that trauma, that's why it's taken me such a long time. Because I've had to go back and face that, and face it head on and say. Fortunately, the person who did it is not dead. But that was the hardest thing for me because it was a grandparent. And I had to acknowledge and accept that this person who supposedly loved me had done that to me as a little three-year-old. So, now looking back at that, I can honestly say that, you know you are whole when you get to the point where you can think about them, and there's no emotional trigger. There's no button. There's no reaction. Because I can now look at his face in a photo and feel nothing. Because I realized that, obviously, you've been a very damaged person, and something must have happened to him. I have forgiven him. And I think that's always the hardest to do, when you are healing from abuse, is to forgive your perpetrator. But I think what makes it easier is when you look at them as an outsider, not what they did to you, but what must have happened to them. To perpetrate. What they did to you. And I think that is what helped me. So, yeah, I have completely forgiven. I don't feel any emotion anymore, whatsoever, when I think of anything that happens to me. But what is always good to remember, as well, that when you’re looking back, and you dealing with your trauma, and you're dealing with everything that's happened, is that whenever you think about an event and you still feel something, then there's still work to be done. Because you know you're completely healed when you can talk about your story without emotion. And you can look at your story as if it was somebody else's movie. It's not even you. That this is a movie or somebody else's life. And so that is my advice to you. Is that, you know, when you embark on this journey, it isn't easy. You've got to do the things that are going to make you feel safe, that are going to make you feel whole. The other thing that I did, and this is what I'm going to say to everybody listening, for God's sake, go and do a self-defense course. Because that was one of the first things I did, was I did a rape prevention self-defense course. Because it makes you feel empowered. It's the first step in getting your confidence back. It just makes you feel better, move better, walk better. Because you’re walking like a confident person. You don't look like a victim because you know, people can see us coming from a mile off when you’re broken. And when you've had abuse in your life before, or you have this invisible magnet inside you that attracts people to you, they can see it. So, if you've just come out of that situation, go and do a self-defense course so that you can work on your body language; and you can work on your body confidence; and you can feel stronger and more empowered in yourself. And then start your emotional journey. And I also just want to say this, is that a lot of people are very scared of their emotions. Your emotions are here to help you to have a better life. All those emotions are going to, you know, they're just like little warning signs that say to you, “You need to pay attention to this because I really want you to have an amazing life. And you're not going to have that amazing life until you take care of this pain.” And that's all emotions are: your emotions can't kill you. They're just there to help you to become the person you’re meant to be. And to help you to have the life you so badly want. And dream of.
 
Rob: Wow. Very, very well said. That's it for me. You hit everything on the head. A lot of the stuff you said resonated with me. Marissa, you got anything else before we get out of here?
 
Marissa: To be honest, no. Deb, I think that you are so inspirational. You said things that resonated with me, you know. And I felt like I was so far healed and so good, and then you say things. I'm just like, “Oh my god.” It made me think. So that's why I was so quiet. I was thinking and ruminating on some of the beautiful things you said. So, thank you so much for sharing all of your insight and your story and everything with us. I think that you're an incredible person and you're so, so strong.
 
Deborah: You're welcome. Thank you. And yeah, I always invite people that just reach out. You know, I also think sometimes we just need to reach out more and not be ashamed of what has happened to you. Because what has happened to you is just something that happened to you. That's not who you are. And so, it's important to reach out and ask for help. Because it's not your fault. Somebody else's bad behavior is not your fault. And it's not because of you. So, you can turn this around, you know. We've all got the power within us to turn it around, and have the lives that we want, and the relationships that we want. And to find love again, like I did.
 
Rob: That's awesome. I always do like little soundbites and write down little quotes from this. I have at least 15 from you. So, I love everything that you're saying, Deb. Thank you so much. And before we get out of here, we are about the shameless promo. Tell everyone where they can get your book again. Tell everyone where they can follow you on social media. All that good stuff.
 
Deborah: So social media: If you just put in my name, Deborah McPhilemy, which is spelled ‘McPhilemy.’ And then my Selfie School is, as I said, it's selfieschool, but it's .me. It's the School of self, and it helps people to get back to themselves, to love themselves, to return to self. So just put my name in social media and I'll come up somewhere. And you can connect with me in my free group. You can ask questions, are always welcome. I always welcome people to contact me and ask for help.
 
Rob: Wow. Thank you so much, Deb. You are truly an inspiration. Thank you again for coming on, for a few minutes of your time, for opening up. I know it's resonated with Marissa and myself. I'm sure that a lot of people listening really took a lot for that. So, thank you so much for your time and continued success moving forward.
 
Deborah: You're very welcome and thanks for doing this guys. It's really needed.
 
Rob: Absolutely. This was an honor. We'll have to do it again sometime. And always, guys, as I always say here: Stay safe. Stay positive. Take care of each other. We're out. Peace.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, narcissistic husband, narcissistic partner, surviving intimate partner violence, married to a narcissist, covert narcissist husband, effects of being married to a narcissist, signs of a narcissist husband, living with a narcissist husband, my husband is a narcissist, my husband is a narcissistic, narcissistic husband traits, divorcing a narcissist husband, dealing with a narcissist husband, divorcing a covert narcissist husband, married to a covert narcissist, narcissistic husband symptoms, characteristics of a narcissist husband, being married to a narcissistic man, best way to deal with a narcissistic husband, i think my husband is a narcissistic, narcissist multiple partners

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Military Sexual Trauma Movement:With MST Survivor Panel Of Veteran Women

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today we have a really, really awesome crew of of bad-ass veteran women who started a grassroots organization fighting for the military sexual trauma movement, MST survivor, and suicide prevention, but also awareness. And I'm just really, really thrilled to have them here. So we're gonna go around and introduce ourselves. I'm Marissa, I'm the host of Healing From Emotional Abuse, Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, and author of the best-selling anthology series, Breaking Through the Silence, but enough about me. Hey Pamela, do you want to introduce yourself?
 
Pamela: Yeah, sure. My name is Pamela Heal. And I am an eight year Navy Combat Veteran and MST Survivor. I got out of the military, because I got to a point after being assaulted So many times, I just realized, for me, the military wasn't safe. And when I got out, I kind of, like, ran away from my problems. For a long time, I had a great career working as a cosmetology educator. And, you know, then I got triggered by a student actually stalked me, and it triggered the hell out of me, because nobody believed me. And that triggered me just reminding exactly what I went through in the military. And I realized I can't escape this, and I quit my job, and I spent all my money on drugs, and went through a couple of suicide attempts. And, you know, really, really went to the depths of my own pain. And when I started to pull myself out of it, go to therapy, get help. I, part of my healing process, began to talk about my story and talk about what had happened to me and not just not just the actual trauma, but dealing with it for the rest of my life, what that's like and why we need to make changes. And you know, that advocacy eventually led me to this group of other MST Survivor veteran women who got together because we, you know, just got fed up. We’re tired of these stories. We're tired of hearing about Vanessa Guillen, and, Elder, and all of our other brothers and sisters who have experienced sexual violence, or sexual harassment in the military. It's just like enough is enough tired people dying. So yeah, that's who I am. Thank you for having us.
 
 
Marissa: Of course. Thank you for sharing. Okay, Lucy, do you mind introducing yourself?
 
Lucy: Hi, I'm Lucy Del Gaudio, US Army Veteran, MST Survivor. Got involved in this fight by a mutual women veteran that is in this space as well. And it's been a ride, but a very, at times very, with highs and times very low. Like right now I feel like I'm in a low period. It's been, it's been a crazy ride. I think for me, what's been really triggering is a my Latino community communities being really affected. My black and brown communities being really affected. You know, I, at first try to stay away from the Vanessa Guillen case, because it was very triggering for me. But then a friend called me and told me that he can't stop watching the news and not thinking, like seeing her image and it reminded him of me, and that really just, you know, kind of made me take this deep dive. But I'm very honored to be amongst this group of women that I've been surrounded with because they have truly become sisters. And pillars for me, Because at times, I feel alone. Because a lot of my community here like a lot of my friends, they don't understand what actually I went through and they can't talk the language like we talk the language when we're in a room together. It's a fuel that sometimes we need, but it's also the support that we constantly need. And I think right now we have to be Way more supportive than combative against each other, because you know how it is when you're working in the women's space that sometimes it's like a combat zone within ourselves. But right now we really have to stand strong because of the time. It's like not stopping. It's like you can't hit stop or pause. And, you know, that's it. So that's me.
 
Marissa: Thank you for sharing. And I'm really happy that you found a collective group of people who not only share what, you know, you went through, but also share the mentality of this needs to be a supportive environment and not a combative environment. I think that's so important for people. So thank you. Sherry, do you mind introducing yourself?
 
Sherry: I am the one non veteran in the group on but I am also a MST survivor of assault and harassment, retaliation. I was a SARC for the United States Marine Corps. And I work for the behavioral health branch at headquarters Marine Corps, when I was sexually harassed the first time. I was told by my superiors not to report it. That not only would my career be impacted, but my husband's career who is a Marine Corps officer, his career would be potentially ruined is was the gist of the conversation. I was told not to ring that bell. I received a promotion, and then went to the SAPR world, the Sexual Assault Prevention Response world where I was a SARC and I stood up a new bullet in the Marine Corps where I oversaw a very geographically distant command. I had over 5000 Marines plus families, on let's see over 600 locations. So it was a challenge. So every one of the Marines and Sailors that walked through the door on to any one of the SARCs that worked in my command, or the SAPR victim advocates, and I was responsible for that. For that Marine. My Commanding General, and I worked very well together. A couple of them, and I worked very well together, on but I'm here because of what I went through. I was on the receiving end of sexual harassment by a Marine Corps officer. I was later retaliated against by general officer. And as a federal employee, I had to fight in both worlds. I had to fight in the Marine Corps Justice world, when you get under the UCMJ, to have my offenders held accountable. But I also had to fight on the civilian side. And I say civilian side, I mean, the Federal EEO side, because it's not civilian. There are differences in those requirements and what you can do when you're a federal employee, and so I had to fight on both sides for justice. And it gave me a depth of understanding that most civilians, I would be pretty comfortable saying, do not have an understanding of what our service members go through on a daily basis when they are a MST survivor or victim of this type of abuse, abuse of power. You name it, I've probably been through it. No, I didn't wear the uniform. But that doesn't mean I don't understand or that I didn't experience a lot of what these women did. The Nexus for military sexual trauma is the military. And that's, what I'm here to do is to share awareness and build awareness, because there are a lot of marginalized voices out there still, to this day, that have never spoken up about their MST trauma. And to be honest, we haven't really thought of them up until this point. Or acknowledged that they are a part of this journey for justice that we are all on, I think collectively. This group of ladies has just as taken me in. And I appreciate that. We've talked about being lonely. We are we are MST survivor, we are incredibly strong. But even we have days like today where we are. We're struggling. I think I told you before, but the nightmares that I had last night. PTSD sucks when it's military, sexual trauma (MST) related when it's any type of trauma related And we do feel alone. And I think that coming together, our voices are louder. And whatever we say may not resonate with one person But collectively, I think our voices will continue to be heard more and more as we get louder, and louder. And really just fucking louder.
 
Marissa: I completely agree, you know, when you might not affect everybody, but you if you affect one person and you teach one person that they're not alone, I think that that's the most important. And if everyone is speaking up, then everyone is going to be heard and relatable. Does that make sense? Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here, Sherry. Lindsay, would you mind introducing yourself?
 
Lindsay: Yeah, totally. Um, hi, Lindsey Church here, Executive Director and Co-Founder of Minority Veterans of America. I served in the Navy from 2008 to 2012. I am also the third generation military, my mom served in the Navy, my grandfather served in the Navy and some other folks have been the Air Force. We don't talk about that. But I experienced sexual harassment. When I was in the service, I was not sexually assaulted. I barely put my sexual harassment together as a veteran that the system of Don't Ask Don't Tell them the discriminatory practices that made it impossible for us to share what we are going through, made it really easy for people to harass and assault LGBTQ service members. I have been working in this space for I think, seven years started with student veterans now work with minority veterans see a lot of folks in our work that are MST survivor s. Many of the most atrocious stories you'll ever hear are members of MVA. I'm really grateful and proud to be leading this community and serving survivors of so many things and got involved in this work through a mutual colleague that I think many of us are connected to that, you know, when Vanessa Guillen was, her body was discovered she, you know, called a group of us together and said, I don't know what we're gonna do. And I don't know how we're going to do it. But I know that we can't stop like we have to, we have to do something this epidemic of sexual assault and harassment and violence is too much. It's too much for our community to continue to stand by and continue to let people serve or not let people we don't let anybody serve, but to continue to endorse the military as a place that we belong in a place that can keep us safe, and it's not. And so, you know, what, we're trying to accomplish a systemic change. We can't I mean, even in the speeches that many of us, you know, started with it said, Vanessa Gullen, you know, like we want, we want no more Vanessa Guillen’s. Well, guess what, there's more. There's already been more Vanessa Guillen’s since Vanessa Guillen was murdered, and Vanessa Guillen was only murdered five months ago. And there, you know, like the story of Sgt. Elder Fernandez today's is another example of what the military does to MST survivors. So yeah, thank you for having us. Super grateful to be here and have a conversation. So thanks.
 
Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing all that. And what's the name of the organization Minority Veterans of America?
 
Lindsay: Minority Veterans of America.
 
Marissa: Minority Veterans of America. Okay, awesome. Send me links and stuff to your Instagram and social media so I can post it on the description And fun, weird side note, I wrote a paper in 2010 about Don't Ask Don't Tell and why it needed to be repealed. That got me into a bunch of colleges.
 
Lindsay: I thank you for doing that. Because while we were serving, we didn't have any power to do anything to change it. Much like the situation we're seeing now. Like service members don't have a lot of control over the situation. They just have to endure it. And so thank you for your work and the fact that you were fighting for me when I didn't even know you.
 
Marissa: Well, I appreciate you fighting for me and I didn't know you. Okay, and last but not least, Erin, would you mind introducing yourself?
 
Erin: Of course my pleasure. My name is Erin Kirk Cuomo. I am the Co-Founder and Director for an organization called Not in My Marine Corps. Our primary mission is to advocate for MST Survivors and military harassment survivors. But we also advocate for civilians who are also impacted by MST, military members assaulting and harassing them as well. So our organization is pretty much there for not only Marines, but also Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, as well as any civilians who have been impacted by MST survivor. We primarily came up in the DC area during the Marines United — Nude photo scandal about five years ago — where we were advocating for changes to the UCMJ to hold non-consensual imagery, offenders accountable under a specific clause in the UCMJ. As well as, incorporating that into the Marine Corps as a Page 11. The Marine Corps decided to make all marine sign up page 11 on social media behavior, which to this day still does not have an impact on how Marines treat especially women and minorities on the Internet and on social media platforms. And most of the time when you see that, especially towards women and minorities it incorporates some kind of verbal harassment, sexual assault talk or verbiage in their responses, as well as a lot of racist language. So it's definitely something that we keep an eye on And that's also how we were brought into this Grassroots Organization. We had been vocal. Well, Vanessa Guillen was missing, that the Army needed to look further into the charges her family brought that she had been harassed by her superior NCO. And initially, the Army had indicated that they had no credible information that that could anyway tie into her disappearance. For us in this space, we absolutely know the alarm bells were ringing, very loud and clear when we heard that and that we knew that that is going to be something that is a very large part in her disappearance. And, you know, to translate this now to Sergeant Elder Fernandez, this is exactly how the military and the army specifically fails, MST survivors, sexual assault and harassment survivors, he reported violence, sexual contact, combative sexual contact, and was simply just moved out of his command. That's not acceptable. This is not an acceptable way to handle sexual harassment and assault in this environment that directly leads to retaliation, which I can guarantee you this Sergeant experience. So the Army right now not only has Vanessa Guillen death and murder on their hands, but they also have Sergeant Fernandez. And I think that when you talk to all of us in this group, every single person that comes after it is a direct correlation to their failures, and it is on their shoulders.
 
Marissa: Thank you for sharing. I completely agree with everything that you said. Yes. Applause. I completely agree with everything you said. The problem I see is that the Army or the military in general is never held accountable. So we see it as on their hands. And it's their responsibility to fix but they don't. So I would love if everyone would unmute, can we foster a conversation about that. About the military? Isn't held accountable, like what needs to change what needs to be done? And what does your grassroots organization do to kind of break that silence and make them make them you know, speak for what they are allowing?
 
Erin: Oh, I think we have to talk about the command investigation structure first. We can’t go into this man's are investigating themselves. I just it's it blows my mind that people can't see that this is the issue. Like it's asking the police officer to investigate his partner.
 
Pamela: Also it’s offering an anecdotal example as to why that there's such a problem. My fifth install, and I mentioned before I experienced six. I was E5 in the Navy. I had a decent amount of experience. I knew how the UCMJ worked. I knew what my rights were. I was a cop in the Navy, so I knew that shit. I was assaulted by my chief. And when I reported it, the SHARP advocate I was given, was sleeping with him. Classic. And they were they were, they were both married to other people who were in, you know, obviously not they're on deployment with us. So that that's a standard story as a veteran, you know, that one. Like people go on deployment and all hell breaks loose. But the thing is, there were a lot of levels and things that shouldn't have been happening, but they were both Chiefs. The woman who was my advocate was the Chief, and they, you know, had the whole chiefs mess, which is a, this is a Navy tradition. But anyone who's a seven or above, they kind of are in their own little fraternity of leadership and a friendship and they really protect each other. And so immediately, the entire Chiefs Mess, as we call it, started harassing me. Started making my work harder. I was in charge of the berthing spaces, and they had a surprise inspection of our berthing, and torn apart and told everyone that it was my fault because the place wasn't clean. Which is just doesn't make any sense. But it was just like, the idea was to just trash my name as much as possible. And also, you know, silence the story, which is exactly what happened. I got real, real tired of fighting for myself, and I just got really quiet and decided to get out. But, you know, I didn't get any justice there at all. In fact, I got so much retaliation, that it silenced me and that Chief, he was able to retire. And, you know, now he gets a pension from the military, and he's a sex offender. Nobody cares.
 
Erin: There's no registry for military sex offenders. And for the most part, they when they do get out of the military, they are not reported to civilian sex offender registries. So I want to bring up a case that actually just came out about a week ago. It's from the Air Force. It's a Senior Master Sergeant. That was selected. Now correct me if I'm wrong, because I am terrible with Air Force ranks. I was a Marine, Senior Master Sergeant Jeremy Zier, sexually assaulted a co-worker. And you want to know what his punishment was? He was selected for E9. His punishment was his line number was removed, so he's not going to get the promotion to E9. He's not going to jail. He's not being demoted. And he is going to be given the opportunity to get promoted again and finish out his career and retire. So is his survivor says, “This week my assaulter Senior Master Sergeant Jeremy M. Zier, was found guilty in a military court for abusive sexual contact and dereliction of duty. I would like you all family and friends to read my impact statement,” and I will provide that link to you. This is a sham. This is a prime example of how military handling sexual assault and harassment is a complete and utter sham. And it's infuriating.
 
Lindsay: Well, I mean, like you're also talking about like the sex offender registry. I mean, it's anybody will probably tell you it's an extreme example. Jeffrey Dahmer was released from the military because they didn't believe that he would be a problem in the civilian world after assaulting I think was it six men in the military. Yeah, there's a big article that came out that was like, talking about the six men speaking out there were assaulted. And then he went on to murder people like when he was never transferred to any registry, he was just thought to believe like they believe that he just would be better in the civilian world. Like, no that's not how this works. And commands investigating themselves, like imagine that you are you get in trouble if your command is known to be one that has a lot of sexual harassment and assault problems. Well, if you have control over those numbers coming up, wouldn't you want to control them if it meant that your promotion would be eliminated if you were in Fort Hood and found to be one of the like worst installations in the entire army? Yeah, you would probably try and limit those.  The military has proven time and time again, even when they investigate themselves, they don't do so completely. Like when we went so we there was a hearing on the at the for Military Personnel Committee for the House Armed Services Committee and they were talking about the era of #MeToo, Fort Hood and what happened there, and the Inspector General of the Army admitted that the first time that they went to Fort Hood, they didn't even investigate Vanessa Guillen’s Unit. Well, wait a second. Like if we're talking about Vanessa Guillen and what happened to her, why would you not investigate her unit or even talk to them? It doesn't make any sense. So even when the army like comes back with this report that says that the Fort Hood met standards, were you actually going to look at all of Fort Hood and the place it was known to be the worst? So, how do they expect us to believe that the military actually does know how and will actually release the results without an independent investigation? So one of the things that advocates have been pushing for a long time as a military justice Improvement Act, which would change the way that reporting for sexual assault and harassment would have to be recorded. So you'll be given a third independent investigator, somebody who's not in the chain of command that doesn't have a like a say, or like, they're not going to be impacted by whether or not the command is investigated. You need somebody that's independent of the chain of command to be able to look into these cases. Otherwise, you're never going to know like, what's actually happening.
 
Erin: And also someone who is experienced in investigating sexual harassment and assault. We have people that are doing these investigations for the commands that have absolutely no idea what they're doing, have no idea how to conduct interviews, and are simply just doing this to try and move it along.
 
Sherry: So, let me add to that, having gone through four separate investigations, to finally get to the point where I am now, the first investigation was part of an IG conversation that was held. And the IG inspector asked me, “Well you weren't you know, you are on the fifth deck of the marsh building for the with the Marine Corps and headquarters anymore? What do you have to bring to this discussion?That would be a value?" Okay, so all the people who said hey, you need to speak to this person who has an experience when you're investigating a persistent, toxic environment. This is how you're going to start out that conversation. The second investigation, I was asked to go meet with an a colonel in a building on Marine Corps Base Quantico that I was not familiar with this Colonel who I did not know. I was not allowed to bring anybody with me either. This Colonel whom I did not know took me into the bowels of a building walking me with him to talk about my sexual harassment and retaliation through a building that I was not familiar with into a dark room alone with this man. Again, probably not the best way but he is the one who got tasked to do the investigation. The third investigation, third, that I was a part of was for another set of retaliation that I experienced by yet another supervisor. And this one I got assigned a Captain, who, in the GS and NATH, you're supposed to have equivalent or higher duty investigation. I outranked him by two grades, technically. He came and had a conversation, but he brought an HR person with him, who then later (This is supposed to be a confidential conversation, right?). This individual then, the HR rep took that information back to the HR office and discussed it. Also discussed it with agency counsel, who, what she was not cleared to discuss any of this information with. Then I had to go nuclear and go to the press in order to get an investigation. Ironically, that worked. I was able to eventually get the Commandant of the Marine Corps to open up, agreed to open up an investigation on my sexual harassment on the offender. And I can tell you, the difference in that investigation was night and day. The individual that they brought in, was a trained attorney. This was an individual who worked for the Department of Justice. Was a Marine Corps officer as a Reservists and the quality of that conversation was like Night and Day. It was truly an investigation. And it started out as such. I mean, this, first of all, this individual came to me in my building, because he acknowledged my safety concerns. He asked first, would you be comfortable meeting me elsewhere? And I said, “No. I am only comfortable, you know, right now, I'm in certain spaces." And he said, “Not a problem. I will come to you. Would you like to have somebody with you for support?” You mean, I can have somebody? And the quality… But just the questions that were asked, the reason I bring this up is because you have to have a trained investigator, somebody who has served on both the defense and the prosecution, they know what they're doing. And the way that they asked those questions, you can tell. And it was only then that my offender was then held to probably the least form of accountability that could be. But eventually it was determined that he would be forcibly retired. But he was forcibly retired at the same rank. Granted, he didn't pick up his promotion to Lieutenant Colonel and didn't get to take over a command full of our most vulnerable population of who leaves for every branch of the service. So there is that which I feel pretty darn good about.
 
Lucy: I'm gonna jump in because I'm, you know, how about the ones that we never get justice? My chain of command didn't give didn't give a fucking rat's ass. I went to them. I was 48 hours after my assault, I went to them. I told every single person in my chain command. And all they did was question me, and I was the bad guy. I was the reason that I got assaulted. So I did everything to get assaulted, and I was ruining a man's career.
 
Erin: Yep.
 
Lucy: That's, where I get infuriated. Because again, you know, I hear your story, Sherry, I hear how you went through all these different steps. And then you finally got someone in your chain of command that actually felt compassion for you. But you know what, there's plenty of us that they don't give a fuck what happens to us because all they're all they're in tuned, is that you are trying to ruin someone's goddamn career. And I am to the point that we have to have that structure. We have to have that outside command. We have to have that safe place where you could say, I got assaulted. Well, Lucy, we're going to start investigating everything. Because again, you know, and in the last 45 days, I keep on replaying that day. And when I went in there, when I was forcibly told to leave my room, go get dressed, go to your office, and tell everybody what happened to you. And then hearing, Are you sure? Are you sure? And that pisses me the goddamn off. And I can just imagine what Elder Fernandez, what Vanessa Guillen… and Vanessa didn't tell anybody. But yet, I told someone, Elder told someone, we told people and nobody goddamn protected us. Nobody gave a fucking shit. And that's what I'm tired of that. I'm tired of that. Like, nobody gives a rat's ass and I'm sorry that I'm getting so like, fired up. And so like, you know, belligerent and so like, you know, but I'm just tired of hearing that chain of commands are doing their own investigating, someone needs to investigate that chain of command. At that point, that's what is going on. Like someone go in there and just wipe that slate clean, because they are an issue. That whole base is a whole issue. They have problems. It's toxicity. It's toxic leadership that continues to plague our military time and time again. It's not just the Army. It's every single branch and we have to get rid of it. It's time and time again. I'm tired. I'm frustrated. It needs to stop. This can't go on anymore. And again, it's not, you know, I you know, I know there's people that talk about the Latino community. I know they talk about the black and browns. It's a freaking problem. Get rid of that good old boys club. Let's get rid of them. I'm tired. I'm done. That's it. And I've given my two cents.
 
Lindsay: Lucy's ready to burn the patriarchy today.
 
Pamela: When you are in uniform. You're you are. You're told right away when you join and you're told every day after that you are, you know the property of the federal government. Your rights are, you don't really have them. So when you're trying to advocate for yourself, it's nearly impossible to do that. It's terrifying to say, my Chief assaulted me, or my Sergeant is harassing me. You're telling on your boss to your boss. You’ve got to remember that, you know, commanding officers and people in power. They don't want report saying that anyone in their command has been sexually harassed or assaulted. That's not a good look for them. So they're going to do everything in their power to silence people, but not because and it's unfortunate, but that's just, you know, there's a conflict of interest there. Because you've got, you've got someone who's just been victimized who was, you're just terrified to talk about it anyway, right? You've got someone who's been victimized, and then they, want to get justice, if they have the guts to do it, which is a whole other set. It's terrifying because again, they own you. So you're telling the system that hurt you, that owns you that they hurt you. Just think about that real quick. Like this system is not set up to encourage you to advocate for yourself in any kind of way. You don't have first amendment rights, you can't speak to the media.
 
Lindsay: You can leave either. You can go home, like there's no quitting our plays are no quitting your job and just walking away. Not that, that's an easy thing to do, but it's not like, I gotta go, this is a really toxic work environment. Here I go. It's like, “Oh, shit, well, my option is a felony, or staying here in this bullshit." It's an impossible situation.
 
Pamela: They have the power to ruin your career if they want.
 
Lindsay: It's not just your career, it’s your whole life.
 
Erin: So, I want to make one point here, because, you know, throughout Sherry's story, you have to remember that Sherry was a high level, GS worker, government service worker. And officer level civilian employee, she had to go to the Commandant of the Marine Corps while she was working at headquarters Marine Corps to get any kind of justice. Imagine the people like Sergeant Fernandez and Vanessa Guillen. And Pamela, and Lucy, and Lindsay, and me being E3, E4 or First Lieutenants. How do you think if someone like Sherry, who practically works directly for the Commandant Marine Corps can't get justice? Without close to four investigations? How does a little E3 Lance Corporal in the Marine Corps going to get any kind of justice? This is not something that that we can let go anymore because it is not working.
 
Lindsay: One, Erin, you I know, you know, statistics more than anybody, like, isn't the highest rate of folks that are sexually harassed and assaulted below the grade of E4?
 
Erin: yes.
 
Lindsay: So when we talk about who's being most harmed by the system, and who has the most access to power, you're looking at the people that are most harmed by the system with the least access to power. And when you talk about rape and sexual assault, I think that people the general public, I think, forgets that rape and sexual assault are not about sexual gratification. It's about dominance. It's about power, which is all the military is designed around. And which is a really sad thing when you think about like how our antiquated our military has become. But we now we still in 2020, haven't realized that brute force isn't really the way. And yet this is what our culture continues to perpetuate. And so you look at like, how do we abuse the most weak and vulnerable or you're going to abuse the E4s and E3s. We're going to abuse the people of color. We're going to abuse the people who are not native English speakers, or that their families are not. When you look at the case of Vanessa Guillen, and Elder Fernandez, the families are, I believe that Elder’s family is Portuguese speaking. And so you're looking at like the most vulnerable, both in the military and out of the military. So of course, it's about power and dominance. And of course, we're going to continue to pick these folks off, like because also like the military looks at the E3s and E4s as if we're all in abundance. Like we can just get a new E3, we can get a new E4. We can’t get a new E9. That’s going to take a long time. But so we're expendable or fodder to the  fucking fire. Sorry, soapbox.
 
Marissa: No, that was great.
 
Erin: Absolutely true.
 
Lindsay: Yeah. I'm mad today. I'm really mad today.
 
Erin: Yeah, I think we're all really mad today. You know, through our whole grassroots movement, we've been screaming about this and saying, “Not one more.” And it's like every week, there's one more. Every day we see somebody else missing or somebody else is struggling to get justice for their assaults. And every day we're seeing, you know, the perpetrators of these crimes, continue in their jobs; continue with their rank; and continue to retire with absolutely nothing done to help hold them accountable. So yeah, Damn straight, we're freaking angry. We're really angry.
 
Marissa: And we should be angry. And the problem is that anger is falling on deaf ears.
 
Pamela: I think it's not just anger too, it's a whole other host of emotions. I mean, there are people that you know, that are in our group. But are really, really, really struggling right now. Because it's so hard to speak and speak and speak. I mean, many of us have been doing this. I mean, Erin's been doing it for seven years, you know. This is not a new problem, right. And suddenly, the media is giving it more attention, which is like a bittersweet thing. It's like, thank you for finally listening. But why the fuck are you now, only now you're listening, you know?
 
Lindsay: Well, and also, it's like, in addition, like, that's a great thing. And also like your stories. All you're reading is like your abuse and trauma over and over in the news. And so you're being re traumatized every single time. Sorry.
 
Pamela: Yeah, no, it that it's, it's super triggering for that reason, because I don't love, I don't often go into the details of what happened to me. Like the actual details, because it's so awful. And it's not a space I want to live in forever. And at the same time, it's also true that these things have to be discussed over and over and over again until change happens. And so because of that reason, all of us I think, are really hurting if we're going to be truly honest. Because you know, whether or not you can manage your triggers well, it depends on the day, and the circumstances of that day brings you. But while you're dealing with that, I mean, we really all truly do as a group really embrace each other. And so when you see one of your people really, really hurting. That's really challenging, too, because all you want to do is do better for your community. That's why we're doing this. It's not because it's super fun to talk about being raped, because it's not. So, having to have those conversations over and over and over again, please listen to us. Please listen to us. Please listen to us. When are you going to make the changes that we are, as survivors are telling you HAVE to happen? It's not a negotiable thing. Like if these things have to happen, so that people stop getting sexually assaulted, people stop killing themselves, or killing each other. Has to happen! Like how many more people have to die? How many more?
 
Lindsay: And the thing too is, like what I would argue is, one of the most harmful things about what happens when the media takes hold is that it's all we only ever get to share stories. We don't get to share solutions. We don't get to say this is the story, which is a really important part of this. But the more important part to sharing these stories is the solutions that come with it. Like why the fuck are you like asking me to like cut my wrists open and show you that I bleed red. And you won't even listen to me about what I to do. I can so you see this perpetuation of harm and that like it's sensationalized. And it's all about, you know, what can I what kind of, you know, what's the most traumatic thing that you can pull out of your like weapon of Arsenal tools, and actually, the best thing that I can give you is the solution for it. You know, like, you need to be willing to both hear the stories and get one get in the fight and to implement the solutions. If you're in a position of power, instead of just sitting here and writing. I mean, like writing stories is super important. Now we need to write the stories about what we want and how we're going to change it. What we're going to do about it, and what the American public is willing to do and sacrifice in order to make these changes happen. So the media has done great about like getting the story started. Now it's not about the story. It's about the solution and how we're going to put pressure on the people that can implement these solutions to make these changes so that we can stop working so hard for nothing.
 
Erin: I call it Trauma porn. Yeah, I call it trauma porn because I cannot tell you how many times I get media inquiries, asking me to find active duty survivors that are willing to tell their story. You know how awful and dangerous that is,? I can’t. I am a public affairs person at heart. So I do try to explain the consequences of MST, military sexual trauma, PTSD related to MST. And also what you can do to a survivor if you bring them out and put them on television, without them having, number one gotten through their trauma to a point where they are healthy enough to do this. Second, that they have a support network, because I guarantee you every single person that comes on and does this is immediately going to go and be triggered afterwards.
 
Pamela: Yep. Ordering and terrified. It's going to happen to them. Yeah.
 
Marissa: And retaliated against when they're done.
 
Erin: Correct. No, it's just it's really frustrating that we can't get past this. Lindsey said, “Yes. All of these stories are important to show the pervasive nature of harassment and assault in the military. But we have to push through this. We have to put To what kind of legislation can we push? What kind of legislation do we need? Who's going to support us in this in the house in the Senate, who is going to be there, you know, on those flagstones in front of the Capitol building with us saying This has to stop?” So you know, and I really think that's what's important about this grassroots organization is you can see that we all don't belong to the same advocacy organization. Some of us don't even belong to an organization. But we are all so fed up with this, that we've come together and have said, you know, enough is enough. And I think that when we had our day in DC, you saw that through the press conference, as well. We had reps that formerly, who were in the military who did not support taking investigations out of the chain of command, who did a complete 180 and stood there beside us that that morning. And said, we were wrong, and we are going to do what's right to make this better. So you know, this is a bipartisan issue. This is not a partisan, talking point. Military Sexual Assault, MST and the trauma and PTSD that results in that, including the murders and the suicides, is a problem that every single party, Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Green Party, I don't care who you are, this is something that everybody needs to be invested in.
 
Lucy: But this is also a huge educational factor right now. We have to educate people what actually takes place in the military, what actually takes place culturally and figuratively, when it comes to being in the inside pocket of the military. But also once you get outside and in the veteran organization-scape and what takes place. People need to realize that not every single veteran organization is there for the veteran. So not every, person that says they're helping veterans actually helping veterans. And some people are in there for the wrong reasons. Like right now I'm reading my phone right now someone sent me something that totally infuriated me. So now Lucy's back on her soapbox, because I'm on fire right now. So I'm tired of people that say they're actually doing something structurally, and not doing something structurally, you know what I mean? I don't have time for you to say that you're helping me when all you want is that highlight. I'm tired of that bullshit, you know what I mean, if you're going to do the job, you've got to do it, right. And I want to see a freaking result. Okay. And in the Latino space, we tend to be like, Oh, you put doctor in front of the name, you're gonna respect the person, if it's a doctor. And if you put Esquire in the back of the name, you're gonna respect them, because they have Esquire in the back of that name, you got to stop that philosophy, you got to see who's actually proven their point and have done their due diligence is really helping people. And again, the mindset of  MST, military sexual trauma is completely different. In all of us have different ways of how we're feeling and how we treat what's going on. So again, education is key. So you know, the legislative side how things are taking place, of how it factors into the person, the human being. Because some of these questions like media ask, and some of the questions just in the general public asked. it's like, dude, like, Don't ask me that question. Do you realize what you just asked a survivor. And that is really something that needs to like the public needs to be educated on what actually takes place, how the culture works, and how we could stop it. Because our biggest allies are the public that are reading these New York Times articles. That are reading that are watching NBC and ABC News. They are the ally that we need, and get them up to speed and maybe we can make a difference.
 
Sherry: I think it's important to note that the policies and procedures that they've got in place, they simply don't work. When you have to report your sexual assault, your sexual harassment to someone within your chain of command, that doesn't work.  And the reason that I mentioned every, not every step, because clearly there's a lot more to it. But the steps that I went through the steps that I had to take even to get to what little bit of accountability. I'm not gonna call it justice anymore, because there was accountability that should have happened. But we have to force them to get to that point. We have these. We have the UCMJ we have these laws and these policies and procedures in place, but they simply they don't follow them. And every single time that they can find a loophole to benefit the offender, they're going to do it. They don't ever use any loopholes, to benefit the victim. Ever. I've not heard one victim step forward and say, "Well, you know, they kind of skirted through this for me.” No, it's always for the offender. By removing and by forcing accountability, they asked how we want to fix this. Accountability. Start holding people accountable. Remove the commander's from the investigatory process. We have these laws in place. Let's use them. Let's add the sex offender registry. Let's make sure that our victims are taken care of. That they receive the support services that they need. And discretion is another thing, the use of discretion. It drives me bonkers to think about that an investigation can happen. But then the senior person can say, “Well, I'm gonna use my discretion, and we're just gonna give you a little slap on the wrist, even though you should have been charged under the UCMJ for under any number of articles,” but they still they use that discretion. That discretion is the good old boys club at work right there. Because what they're doing is they're protecting the retirement and the pay for that Airman, sailor, marine.
 
Pamela: Erin was mentioning before, you know, the E8 gentlemen, if we want to call him that. I like to say, gentlemen, ironically, when we're talking about gentlemen like this. He was he was kept in and he just didn't get promoted. And that kind of thing. I think an important point that's been made previously, in spaces that we've shared together is, you know, if you do drugs in the military, and your caught, they have a zero tolerance policy. You are out of there. Doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't matter if you're if you pop or anything, you're out. It's bonkers. Absolutely, just wild, insane to me that we do not have that same policy for sex offenders, because that's what we're talking about here. We are talking about people who are enabled to be sex offenders, continuously, because if you do it once, it's not the only time. Okay, so you're repeatedly doing this as a leader in the military and getting paid with taxpayer money for the rest of your life, and you're retired, and you're a sex offender, and nobody cares. As long as you're not doing drugs. That's the message that we're sending to people in the military, every time that someone gets off for being in any kind of trouble for this, it's like, well, you know, at least aren't doing drugs like, well, you should stop that, but it's fine.
 
Lindsay: It's interesting that you say that because like, you know, like the zero tolerance policy became a big deal when I was in the service like 2008-2012. The Navy's like, Right Spirit program or like, Right Spirit Right Time, you know, whatever it is. And it was a big deal because they didn't want underage drinking, and like drinking and driving and all of those things. And they were so like, adamant about it. I mean, I watched one Public Captain's Mass. One E4 that got a DUI. Okay. Military is big on discipline. The military is big on rule enforcement. Why the fuck is why if a commander is so intent on making sure that all of their service members or their: soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, coasties, are doing what they're supposed to, why are they letting this go? This is a discipline problem and you shouldn't be like, I would be pissed if I was leading troops if I was leaving service members. Why would you think that if you have a pervasive issue of sexual assault, harassment and sexual violence in the military, and it's a discipline problem, and they're not listening to you like, why are you not taking greater anger in that? I don't understand that part.
 
Pamela: It's literally embedded in the culture that victimizing people is to be celebrated. And the only way that you change culture is you change policy. That is a fact. So yeah, this culture hurts, it hurts to think about. It hurts to think about the leadership that just has failed us so many times. They aren't going to be held accountable until a policy holds them accountable. And that is how you change the culture.
 
Erin: Well, keep in mind just in the Marine Corps, the Marine Corps still segregates enlisted women from enlisted men in boot camp.
 
Pamela: That doesn't happen in the Navy. I was in a Co-Ed integrated boot camp in 2006.
 
Lucy: I went through basic with just women.
 
Erin: And that's the way it is the last service that still segregates by gender. Please tell me how that isn't othering a whole group of people. And it also shows your less.
 
Lindsay: The other part of it is, the military is saying in the instance that this isn’t an issue of sexual assault, harassment and violence. What they're saying is that the only way that we can control our Marines, especially male Marines, is that we have to take the women away because they can't control themselves. That’s a bad message.
 
Marissa: Yeah, absolutely. And this is, I mean, related, but unrelated. This goes back to like, in high school when girls aren't allowed to wear certain shirts because it could distract the men's learning. So why are we why is that still like embedded in our culture civilian and military? That's so stupid.
 
Lindsay: Well, why am I so glad? Actually there might be a few fewer women that are going to be sexually harassed and assaulted. There's a part of me that's very protective, especially of women because they're more likely to be assaulted by prevalence, that there's like maybe just a chance that a few fewer are getting harassed and assaulted because they're separated. There's I did it all part of me that's actually kind of happy about that; and also pissed at the same time and confused and conflicted I mean,
 
Pamela: I think about going to boot camp; they all you know, they don't know your name yet. Right? You don't have name tapes on yet. So, it’s all “female” “female”. I remember getting into an argument actually my very first day of boot camp because I was like, you know, I don't really appreciate the way that you're calling me female This is day one of boot camp. I got PCs so hard for that.
 
Lindsay: But for the rest of your career, you're referred to as a female. It gets to a point  where you walk into a room and you know, everyone's looking at you because you're a woman.
 
Lucy: Yeah, I did a I did a two week TDY during Desert Storm in Kuwait. And they told us we had to do PT. It was only two female in the whole TDY platoon. And they basically told me that I had to wear sweats. And I'm like, why the hell am I going to wear sweats? It's like sweltering out there. And they go, because we don't want the men to look at you. And I'm like, Okay, so, I have to sweat off my tits for this, you know, because then you don't want them to look at me a certain way? And that totally pissed me off. So I went out there anyway, and I put on my shorts, my gray shorts, my gray army shirt. And I went out there and I, you know, and I wasn't gonna let them stop telling me to wear a pair of sweats. And I go, look, I'm sorry, if you guys want to look at me this way, because you can't control yourself, That’s your issue. That's not my issue. Because I'm standing here this same heat that yours handy. And I'm not going to be here in a pair of sweats, whether you like this or not. And I had to fight them for two weeks, two weeks of losing. “Private Chinea, make sure you wear your sweats.” No, I'm not going to wear my sweats. You know, "Private Chinea, remember to wear your sweats.” No, I'm not going to wear my sweats. And when I got back to Germany, they're like, “Private Chinea, were you belligerent?” Of course I was belligerent. It's fucking hot out there. They want me to wear fucking sweats. Are you fucking kidding me? Like, no, I don't have time for this bullshit. You know what I mean? So that's the thing. I'm sorry that I'm you know, I'm Latina. And I'm somewhat sexual. Like I can't that's the way I was made. I can't make that change. But I can tell people like, Don't look at me that way. Because I am your sister, I'm your sister in arms, and you're supposed to respect me. It's a brotherhood. It's a sisterhood, you're supposed to respect me, regardless of what I look like. So that was something that really like, I always look back at that, should I have been less of a sexual human being or not? Like, they kind of like desexualize you, but also sexualize you in some composure. And again, I always look back at that, because, again I'm not shaped the way a lot of you know, these PT shorts are made to be looked on, you know, and they ride us and the way our pants look or the way the shirts are, you know, they don't make it for us, you know, they don't make it with the curvy woman in mind. You know, they make it for a straight guy, you know, to you know, just to wear it that way. So it's like I couldn't make that change, you know. so when I talk when they talk about these things, it's like, Okay, so what are you going to do about it?
 
Marissa: Erin, so I saw that you said in the chat that you were denied flame retardant operational gear because it would show too much of your curves. Can you can you talk about that? Because I'm so curious.
 
Erin: So I've obviously I was public affairs, I was a combat photographer, so I was outside the wire pretty much every day with you know, the grunts with military police officers covering pretty much anything and everything. It was 2007 and we have just gotten the new desert, Flame Retardant Operational Gear (FROGS) and you came out from the Commanding General everybody if you're leaving the wire you have to have this on. So I went to pick up my gear and I was denied by the E8. So he said, “No, we're not issuing these to women.” I said, Why I have to go outside the wire tomorrow. I have to have this. And he goes, nope. So not only did I have to go and they had to run it up the chain of command because I was the only photographer so I had to go. The commanding generals aide had to call him and say you will issue this gear to this Lance Corporal, went back, picked it up, begrudgingly went back. But get this. While all the other men as soon as we would get back for missions, after being sweaty, disgusting, hungry, they got to go to the chow hall and take their flacks off and go eat. I had to go to my tent and put regular Cami’s back on so I didn't distract all of the Marines in the chow hall with my tits in my FROG. So this is this is what we talk about when we talk about a culture issue.
 
Pamela: Yeah, right. Many of us, we're all nodding our heads like Yeah, yeah, I have a similar story in the back of my mind. Yep. Of course. Our bodies are weaponized against us.
 
Erin: It's coming down to my safety. Like, you're not going to give me a piece of gear that will potentially save my life if I get blown up, because I have tits? Mm hmm. That's what you're telling you master guns, right? Like, I'm sorry. But like, as an E3, I stood there that's like, Fuck this.
 
Lucy: Miss Lindsay is rolling the eyes.
 
Lindsay: I was actually shaking my head and rolling my eyes.
 
Pamela: It's just too relatable. It's painful. How relatable that story is, you know. Tired of our bodies being weaponized against us and knowing that it's still happening because people are still dying.
 
Lindsay: Do you know how many, like the whole military is like, “You get to be one of four things: A Bitch. A Slut, or a Whore, or a Dyke."
 
Lucy: You're talking about that. And that's very interesting. I went to school first before I went into the military, because my dad passed away. So that's tempted me to go to the military. But before I my dad passed away, I considered the military because both of my brothers were in it. And I remember having this conversation with my dad. I’m like, “Dad, I'm thinking maybe possibly going into the military.” “No, what are you a dyke?” And I'm like, Dad, like, really? And that's the like some Latino culture. It's like, Oh, well, you're either going to school and become the artists that you want to be, or you want to go to the military because you're telling me you’re a dyke. And I'm like, is that the philosophy that you're really…? So …That’s the spectrum? Either artist or dyke?  So I was like, Okay, I guess
I remember actually, when I left and I was with my brother because my brother was my recruiter. And I'm about to get on the bus to go to JFK to leave to Fort Jackson. And he goes to me bye dyke, and I go bye brother. And it was just a way. That was the way we you know, we understood it because again, my dad, in the Latino culture, that's his perception of women in the military. Was that his daughter if she joined the military, because she was telling her she was dyke. And I was like, okay, so there you go. So, even in the in when you're in the military again, you're either a slut, you're a dyke, you're a whore. You know, I was called a tramp. I was called a putah. I was called mattress,. Yeah, my favorite. My favorite one was I was called a Spear Chucker. Now, that was my favorite one. Hey, here comes the spear chucker. And I'm looking at them like a spear trucker? And I'm like, What is that? They're like, aren't you sort of sort of Indian? I'm like, Are you serious? So I was like, so I was the spear chucker. So yeah, I throw spears. So that was that was basically it. So I was called everything.
 
Pamela: I think my favorite one was when I was I was married for most of the time I was in the service and my married name was Von Friesen. And I was such a bitch. And so, you know, people started calling me Von Frozen because I was so cold. And I was so happy that men that I worked with found me to be cold and frozen, because that's what I wanted them to. I mean, I still had to deal with their bullshit but like, Yeah, fuck you. You know I you it does it hard at you. You have to pick a lane. Like are you going to be a hardened frozen — “I will fucking ruin you in your sleep if you cross me,” type of chick. Or are you going to be someone who is an apologist and enabler of that culture? Which a lot of women actually do choose that because it's easier for them. Yeah, it's easier for it, it's easier to support a misogynistic culture that has operated for, you know, a long time. It's easier to do that, because he in some ways, I think it probably feels safer for them, even though they're still, hurting themselves in their own way. That's, yeah, you have to pick a lane, you do. So I was Von Frozen.
 
Marissa: It's like, they think that being part of the boys club protects them from the boys club. But really, it's just kind of planting you in the middle of that culture. And as soon as you speak out against it, that's when it comes and bites you in the ass.
 
Pamela: Right. Absolutely.
 
Sherry: For those that unfortunately, take that route, and then become the victim themselves. Because somebody didn't, you know, didn't take no for no, then they very quickly learn once you're on the outside of that boys club, what the process and what the pain is really, really like for these very strong women who go through this.
 
Marissa: So what kind of I know that we covered a little bit about like, what needs to be changed? But you guys, as the grassroots organization who have all had your actual life altered by these situations, Do you have any recommendations or ideas for solutions?
 
Erin: Yeah, I think what we've been talking about over the last hour. I mean, it’s a good start. Remove commands from the investigations develop a military sexual predator registry, ask Congress to add sexual harassment to the Title 10. You know, all of these things are things that we all at the grassroots organization support. Not to mention, there needs to be a huge review of all these cases of women and men who have turned up dead, that are listed as suicides, because it's not passing my radar here. So you know, when we talk about these things, you know, MJIA? These are things that should have been done years ago that haven’t.
Lucy: You remember the stop? Remember when Spears in 2013, tried to put in the stop law. And I almost talked about that during my testimony, because Stop was like the first initiation of like, some sort of difference in code when it came to MST< sexual trauma, sexual harassment. And I was really for STOP. And, you know, when I was doing the testimony, I kind of almost thought about, like, that stop mentality was something that I think we should revisit, also, because it really had some very valid points when it came to it. But again, like, you know, the whole factor, is what we've been talking about all that all that change has to take place. You know, just the conversation we've been having, we've all experienced layers of different multitude of harassment and sexual assault, and it's just tiring. But again, making those changes, that third party investigating process is something that's so vital, and so needed. And, and again, just making, making awareness of  the change needs to take place, and getting people to jump on board, it's like, again, we're tired, we're seeing that it's really problematic issue, and we just have to really try to change the game.
 
Marissa: I like that. And I definitely think that getting Congress members involved is a huge part of that. Because truly, that's the only thing aside from the President that's above the military, which is really unfortunate.
 
Erin: They’ve shown they’re not going to fix themselves.
 
Marissa: Right? Well, why would they if they don't have to? And they don't want to be held accountable anyways. I mean, going back to what we said before, you know, their pension and their promotion, everything is based on their numbers. So if they have a higher rate of sexual assault at their installation or their base, why would they impact their own lives to help other people it doesn't make sense for them. For me, and for us, it all makes sense because you want to, make the change and make the military safe for everyone. But I guess from where they're sitting, it doesn't look like that. Right?
 
Lucy: So, the lens, the lens, the lens definitely needs to be cleaned. Yeah, in the sense from the from the civilian eye. They have to see like again, we washed the lens during the MeToo movement. There was a different lens. And now you have to wipe off those glasses and look at the lens from the military end of what actually takes place. Because remember, women, we raise our right hand. And we go in there and we protect to serve, and nobody's protecting us. And we again, if we are protecting you, then you know what, as a civilian, you have your due diligence to learn how you could change the culture for the people that are protecting you. And to me, that's a big, I always say, again, I think sometimes our biggest allies are within ourselves, but the outside nature of the civilian party, they really need to know how they can also help us as well.
 
Pamela: I think the biggest thing, the best thing about this summer, the only positive is that people are listening. Even though you know, the cost has been great. But people are listening. And I think the one thing that I probably the last thing I have to say about any of this today is you know, I really encourage and implore civilians to really listen to veterans and service members, because there are a lot of civilians that are suddenly interested in helping us. You'll see a lot of civilians that are saying that they're fighting for survivors, they're fighting for veterans, they're fighting for service members. But how close are they to veterans? Because we've lived this. And we know what we're talking about. We know what this world is like. And Sherry, I don't mean you, you've survived something within the military. That's a separate conversation. I'm talking about folks that call themselves advocates, and maybe they aren't. I just implore you, I implore civilians to listen to veterans who have survived these horrors, because this isn't a new trend for us. This is our life; we've lived it. So it's important to give us the space to really tell you what we need. And tell you this isn't up for debate. Like this is how it is and this is how it needs to change. And if you haven't survived and live that your opinion is just, it's just an opinion.
 
Erin: And I got I gotta jump in on that. Because yes, it drives me crazy When I see all of these people doing 22 Til None, you know, I Got Your Six. All of these kinds of things that are geared specifically towards men with PTSD. That where sexual assault and harassment and MST survivors that have PTSD, potentially on top of combat PTSD are having to deal with. But it drives me crazy, because I don't see any you guys talking about this issue. But you're 22 Til None; I Got Your Six. You know, it really is frustrating. It's really infuriating that we as MST survivors, and women and men who suffer greatly with PTSD and MST are completely left out of that conversation. So wouldn't Warrior Project I'm calling you out where ya at? Yeah.
 
Lucy: Yeah, again, you know, we're like the invisible disability in that sense. So people go, oh, what's your disability? And I'm like, I have PTSD. Oh, really? You call that a disability? Yeah, because I goddamn struggle every goddamn single day. You know what I mean? And a lot of organizations again, like, you know, the Wounded Warriors and different organizations, they don't see that correlation. I had a backout of Team Red, White and Blue. Let's use that. They're a great example of how crappy they are. Because I wasn't the Veteran. I wasn't the mold of the veteran that they wanted the imagery of. So I was a 279 pound Captain. And again, you know, when I was holding the flag, they were looking at the weight they were looking at me Lucy, the veteran holding the flag. But the minute I decided to lose the weight because I became healthy and I took my health very into consideration. And I dropped 112 pounds and decided to go holistic with my PTSD. Then Lucy was the swelt Captain holding a flag and they want to Lucy for that imagery. So you know what, F***you because I'm not going to let that happen anymore. And that can happen but I would I say is like, the way we operate, the way with Pam, the way with Erin. We are here to support each other. There's nothing better than someone that knows what happened to support each other. So if you have questions about what's really going on, come to a survivor. We'll tell you how, and when and, and where and what you could do for us. because trust me, I love it when someone goes to me “Hey, Lucy, could you just talk to me? Walk me through this,” and I'll walk you through it. But don't make these assumptions that because you read something on a veteran service organization, and hey, do 22 push ups because that's gonna make me feel better. No. I’m sorry.
 
Pamela: I agree with you the push-up thing is weird. It's weird. What? How are you helping? I’m happy for your biceps bro, but what the…?
 
Lucy: You know, I look at my Facebook thread. And I see like a civilian women. “I swam three miles, and I did that to help those who are in pain from serving in the military?” No you didn’t. You did it because you're a lunatic. I have no other choice but to run the three miles. You're not helping me? How did that affect me? No, that didn't help me. And that's the thing. Again, I hate that like, whew, look, I you know, she's putting you know, they're posing there with their guns out. I just went three miles. I just went three miles. But again, that didn't help me. That didn't do anything for me. Again, I feel I'm not feeling your pain. Because I didn't swim the three miles for you. You know, I do my runs, I hashtag things. That's my self-gratification. But I'm not going to tell others Hey, run three miles with me because it's gonna make you feel better. No, half the people that are in my pack, like if I took Pam for a three mile run, she'll probably pass out a mile one, you know? What I'm just saying? I'm just saying, but that's right. But that again, that mentality of like, like, let's drop and do 20 to make someone feel good. I don't get it
 
Pamela: I don't understand that. Like, how are you keeping people from killing themselves by doing some push ups? I'm sorry, when I workout. I don't think that I'm saving  anyones life. Like I just I don't understand that and how that is? Okay. Then you check the box today. And you're doing you're making the world by doing some push ups? I don't get it.
 
Erin: Yet, they can't they can't take five minutes to call their representatives.
 
Lucy: The span of time you took for that three mile swim, you could have taken and sat on the phone and called Kirsten Gillibrand, and called Cory Booker and called everybody and said, “Hey, could you help a veteran by doing this, this and that?” instead of saying, like, how about like, have you heard what happening? And hey, let's talk about that. Instead of saying, Oh, I'm going to run and I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do drop. And then and then post it on social media and oh, my God, you did good for a veteran, you know, no. It doesn’t work that way. You know, I mean, it just doesn't work that way. I'm sorry. I mean, like You got me on a good day today, because I'm so like…
 
Pamela: You know, people often say and I'm sure you guys all have heard this, “thank you for your service.” It kind of it's, it's this hollow thing for me when I hear people say that, like, what do you want me to say in return? You're welcome? You're like that. And they say it with this like, Oh, and by the way, thank you for your service. You're my trauma. Yeah, it's like I want to be like, okay, you're welcome. Can you sign this petition? Would you could you follow these accounts, please, and educate yourself a little bit more. I mean, you just kind of shrug and go. Mm hmm.
 
Lucy: I feel like I should have I feel like I should have glitter in my pocket. Like you're welcome. Like Listen, look what I just did. And I'm supposed to be like, Hey, thank you.
 
Sherry: Only if it’s red, white and blue. Lucy.
 
Lucy: Like I sit there and I'm like, I just can't I guess I again, I know that people are gonna listen to this. And I'm gonna see like, unfriend, unfriend. Who cares? Let it go. You know what I mean? I already, you know, between mine and Erin's web posts, I've lost more than this house. I've lost my waffles and pancakes. I've lost tons of friends on that respect, you know, but you know, but again, there has to be this realization that Yeah, I know people want to do good but there's other ways you could do good when it comes to this. What we're fighting for.
 
Pamela: As a Veteran what they need. How about that, instead? Telling you like what you need because we can tell you the answer.
 
Lucy: Yeah, let's talk about veteran homelessness. Let's talk about the lack of medical attention. Let's talk about the needs of MST survivors. that they're not getting back help.
 
Erin: Let’s talk about how the VA is failing MST survivors.
 
Lucy: And how and how we get harassed in the military, and then we get harassed in the VA? Yeah You know, I walked into the VA in East Orange, New Jersey, and I was waiting for a group of people. We were going to have a meeting with the director of the VA. And I'm standing there, you know, I came from work, so I was pretty business attire. And this older veteran, you know, he had his hat on all his, you know, glory to be God, you know, I'm a veteran, and he goes to me, hey, sweetheart, he goes, why don't you come sit on my lap, I'll tell you some stories. I went up really close to him right in his ear, and I said, “Look M-Fer,” I go, “I'll sit on your lap, and I'm going to tell you some stories and you're not gonna freaking like them.” And I said, more colorful than that. But it's like, they automatically assume that I'm there for other reasons. I'm like,  I'm a veteran, too. You know what I mean? Don't talk to me that way. Don't disrespect me that way. So again, we have to deal with that afterwards. And you know, and again, the assault has taken place at the VA. But again, the lack of gender specific healthcare, the lack of I mean, in New Jersey, we don't even have a mammogram machine. We have 27,000 female veterans and one mammogram machine. So those are the issues. Again, we have transition housing, we have a plight of transitioning and homeless veterans, and we only have eight beds, if you transition, and you're a woman, and God forbid you have a child because then you have none. And we have to put you in a homeless shelter. Those are other things that people don't realize it's a gamut of issues when it comes to the women's fight.
 
Erin: We all talk about male suicide numbers. But look at look at the female, the women's suicide numbers per capita are even larger than what the males are there.
 
Pamela: And make no mistake about it. Everyone that we work with, has had to face challenges like that. This isn't like a faceless issue. I've been homeless. I've tried to kill myself twice. I've had to go into treatment. And I've had to go into the VA to get my care. And I've had dick pics, airdrop to my phone at the VA I had a guy, another veteran tell me he would fuck the sadness right off of my face. Okay, I've there was an older male veteran who was in line behind me at Starbucks at the VA one time who pushed me. And then when I yelled at him, I was the problem. Right?
 
Lucy: Wait, there's a Starbucks in the VA. What's that all about?
 
Pamela: Oh, yeah there is. Yeah. Oh, yeah. In San Francisco. There is West Coast baby. It's the West Coast. I don't even know if that's really… But anyway, um, yeah, I mean, the retaliation and victimization is so much a problem for women veterans, as MST survivors, as we just are naturally selected as the benefactors of so much sexual harassment and gendered discrimination, that it's almost like, we're sitting here and I'm like, Oh, yeah, the VA, that's another part of the fight, too. I keep forgetting
 
Erin: We can go for another two hours on that.
 
Pamela: Many things that we that we have to struggle with, as a result of the traumas that we faced in uniform, it goes on for the rest of your life. I mean, these triggers are real. There are people, fellow advocates and fellow survivors and fellow veterans of mine that I'm genuinely concerned about today, right now, who are in this fight with me. And you know, what, in a couple of days, or a couple of months or a couple of years, those hats might change, and they might be worried about me, this is a, this is a fight for the rest of your life. This isn't something this isn't baggage that we get to put down and sit down somewhere. It's something that happened to us that we will live with forever, and the people that we love and care about are experiencing the same thing. So it's wild that we have to keep telling people listen to us because we're dying.
 
Lucy: And some of us have learned how to play with our demons better than others. You know what I mean? I know that at times, I know Sherry must be like, I can't believe this is like these women are… I love looking at Sherry's face because she's been like, so uh. But, you know, I learned I hid my demons for a very long time and they laid very dormant. And then when they started to creep on in and I saw how bad I really was, I really had to learn how to again, finesse them and work with them, opposed to continue to struggle. And that's something that again, it's difficult and it's a learning process and some of us don’t. Well, some of us don't, you know, others are right in the middle. And some of us just, it just fails us. And then we take turns that we don't want to take. And, again, we have to create these safe spaces in the military, we have to create safe spaces outside of the military, So we could function and we could live and we could grow. Because some of us have really grown. And we really, again, had like the women that are here with me and Lindsay, we really have grown. And still, there's once in a while, like when I wake up, and I'm back to that demon filled Lucy, that just doesn't know how to take my first step out of bed. And those are the things that again, it's a constant, it's a constant day, you don't know what the next day is going to bring. So I kind of started this philosophy of what when I wake up, I put my two feet feet on the ground, I thank, you know, whatever the higher being is that's going to that got me up, I take my deep breath, and I see what the day is going to lead me to. And that's the way I have to function Because again, sometimes I've put my two feet on the ground. And I'm like, crap, I have to deal with this nonsense again. And that's something that it's just an everyday constant cycle. And we just have to try to make it an even playing field, then we have to work at it. And we have to work it all together.
 
Marissa: Thank you guys all so, so much for being here today. I mean, I learned so much, and I'm so saddened to hear I mean, it's not news to me that this happens, but like to hear people's stories is still so heart-wrenching. And you guys are doing such an amazing thing by advocating for survivors and, you know, fighting for safety for everyone. I mean, it's ridiculous that in 2020, we're still having this conversation. But it's a conversation that needs to be had. And like I literally could not be more honored to be surrounded by you guys. And I'm really grateful that you came on the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast today and wanted to talk about this and continue to fight for it. And I'm happy to help in any way that I can. I know I have a bunch of the Instagram handles and Facebook links. But if there's anything else that you guys want to share any thing that you have that can help other people get involved in the fight and know what you need and ask for what you need and stop doing these like dumb push ups and ruck marches. And I mean, ruck marches are great, but like swimming three miles for somebody else’s sanity, that doesn't make sense. You're right. But that's right now civilians like that's all we have. We're like grasping at straws to help. We have no direction. So if you guys have insight and links to post and ways for us to get involved, like I know I want to be involved.
 
Lucy: Like I'll challenge let's say this, I'll challenge any civilian, to go onto the road with me next I was supposed to do, I was supposed to do Chicago, New York City this year. So I'll take a civilian. Do the Chicago Marathon with me do York City with me matched the donation. And if you want to help me, then run alongside me and be my buddy. That's how you should help a veteran. So if you wanted to do that, you want to take that challenge next year 2021. I'm doing Chicago and New York City matched a donation that I'm making two TAPS to the tragedy system program for survivors. Match a donation that I'm making run alongside me and then you will help that veteran because you know what you'll be supporting me. So I take up on anybody who's listening to this and wants to do that with me.
 
Marissa: So I'm in because now that's my motivation. I'm in we just have to stay in contact and if anyone else wants to join me and watch me cry after running for more than ten feet.
 
Pamela: I got bad knees from the military man. My knees are shot and I wish I could run and that's why when Lucy said I probably pass out she was hella right? Like, dude, no, I'll dance. That's my exercise. But anyway, run with Lucy so I can sit at home and rest which I also deserve. Okay.
 
Sherry: That’s a Hashtag right there. #RunWithLucyForVeterans
 
Lucy: Again, find, find a survivor that's using that run for a survival tactic. That's what I do. That's part of my mantra. That's part of what my daily life is, and I do my running. So again, if you want to do that, hey, I'll be more for it and run alongside me. Give me that support. Tell me that you're there for me. Not telling me that I'm doing something. And then Who is it? Who are you benefiting? Who's the benefactor of that and that's What I challenge you to do?
 
Marissa: Thank you guys. I mean, I'm, like I said, I'm so grateful that you were all here today and wanted to talk to me and I want to help in any way I can. And I'm sure a lot of other people that are listening do too. So I'll post all the links and everything that you guys send me. And don't forget for everyone listening to call your Congress, people and advocate for MST Survivors, MST Survivor, MST, because that's the most important thing is to change the policies and to make it safe for everyone. They're fighting for our freedom. So why are we not fighting for theirs? It just doesn't make sense. So thank you guys again, and I'm sure that we will all be talking again very soon.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
 
narcissist. narcissism. overcoming narcissism. toxic relationship. toxic people. ways to heal. how to heal from emotional abuse. living with a narcissist. good friends. healthy relationship. intimate partner violence. intimate partner relationship. healthy relationships. self love. confidence. self esteem. low self esteem. self esteem activities. confidence exercises. breaking through the silence. what does emotional abuse do to you. what does it mean to be narcissistic. what being with a narcissist does to you. what emotional abuse does to you. learning how to trust myself again. i trust myself. i only trust myself. in myself i trust. trust myself. Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? MST survivor. MST survivors. military sexual trauma movement. MST movement. military resources healing from abuse. military sexual trauma survivor. military healing from abuse. female veterans. women veterans. military sexual assault. PTSD. Military PTSD. Military women ptsd. veteran ptsd. ptsd military sexual trauma. PTSD MST. military sexual trauma symptoms. ptsd mst symptoms. ptsd due to mst. mst ptsd va rating. ptsd mst rating. ptsd and mst.

Healing From Emotional Abuse: What Happens After Sexual Assault: With Ally Valdez

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of Millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today I have on my very amazing friend Ally Valdez. Ally is a 23-year-old Brooklynite working for child preventative welfare. She's a champion and an advocate for other survivors. We go way back to 2016. When I interviewed her for my first book, Breaking Through the Silence: The Journey to Surviving Sexual Assault, I adore her spunk and her passion for helping other survivors find their voices and overcome their trauma. Welcome, Ally. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited that you're here today.
 
Ally: Thank you so much for having me. This is the best way to spend my Tuesday, honestly.
 
Marissa: I'm so happy to hear that. Well, let's get started. So, if you don't mind, tell us your truth.
 
Ally: Okay, yeah. So, I was a freshman in college. I was only it was like October; freshmen start like end of August. So, I was a baby. And when it happened, I was hanging out with some friends. I met this guy or he slid into my DMs on Facebook, and wanted to hang out. And I was like, okay, and he was like, Oh, you want to smoke? And I was like, Sure. So, my friends and I, we went to my room with this stranger who was like a senior. So, we thought we were so cool. Or at least I did. And he kept turning his back whenever he would pack whatever we were smoking out of. And, you know, he kept mentioning now he had two different types. My friends got really sick. And started tripping like bad. They left, because they lived like a few dorms down. And then he, you know, I lay down, I kept telling him like, I'm not down to hook up. That's not me. And he put on this trippy music and I kept like, getting like, I felt like I was like, you know, when you're getting hypnotized, and you go deeper and deeper and deeper. That's how I felt to the point where I wasn't cognizant of much. He started touching me, I was like, No, no, absolutely not. My instinct, because I'm a creature of routine was like, Okay, I'm going to go turn the lights off and get my PJs on at 3am. And I did and I texted my friend and I told her, I was freaked out. I got back in bed, I would get up to text her get back in bed. I would get up to text her. And she kept asking me if I want help and I was like, No, I got this. Then I don't know how much time passed. I blacked out for a little bit. And he was on top of me, and I was freaking out.
 
So, when you're being assaulted, your lady parts are absolutely like, you know, yes, because it's physiology. But in my head, I was vocalizing like, No, no. I have a childhood trauma of issues with my dad. So, I was like, screaming Dad stop. And he took that as like, let's go! I don't remember how much time passed in between those. I took a Snapchat and was like, I don't want this but like a bunch of negative emojis. I specifically remember I used a hammer. I looked at a hammer the same way again. And then I woke up the next morning 6am and saw putting on his pants and dipping and I passed out didn't go to my math class. That day, I went to a therapy session by texting my friend that like something happened last night. Can we meet up? And we did and she walked me to my therapist appointment told my therapist at school what happened they sent a cab for me to go to the hospital. I went to the hospital. I didn't know what to do. So, I walked into the ER, I was like I was raped. And they were like what? And I was like I was right. And it first was really weird because they had to like beg the SANE nurse to help because I told them that I’d been high and I begged her. I went on the phone with her and I pled for her they called an advocate for me and she played with her. They did the examination and an attorney came over and she handed me her car and she's like, come tomorrow and I was like Kay, got it. That night I went back to school. All my friends are obviously hovering. And I just kind of shut myself out because I was like, what happened? I called my mom actually and asked her to Skype with me. And I told her it was important. And she was like, well, you should have been more careful. And I was like, I've never been so pissed at her before. This is like the breaking point for me. The day after I went to the prosecutor's office in Bergen County and I told them what happened. I told a male cop and a woman prosecutor what happened. They were like, oh, we're going to deliberate. I literally spat out every detail I could remember because I didn't remember anything. So, I was like giving details about my past trauma. I was like literally giving anything I could because I was in a state of shock. They deliberated came back and they told me that I had serious issues. Evidently, I'd clearly been promiscuous in the past. I should go get therapy I left the room. I ran out of the building and I let out, like it gives me chills thinking about like the most blood curdling scream I think I ever did. I go back to the school told them about it. They took this happened in October, like right before hallway and they waited until April to have a hearing, I finally had my hearing and I was like pressing them all those months in between I almost transferred. And they just charged him for pot use. And that's it. He brought an attorney with him which I was like, that had a girl heated! And then after that I kind of had a mental breakdown. And I was in a relationship after it happened. And him and I had gotten this huge fight, and I was having a very severe PTSD reaction one night in May, right before finals. At that point, I had like, cut off all my friends I was depressed. I was getting perfect grades. But otherwise, I was like on the struggle bus. The only thing positive was like my sorority. And I was like, clinging to that. And then that night, I was having that bad reaction. I swiped at my boyfriend because he came too close to me. I didn't touch him. I just swiped to him. He called public safety. And he was like, I'm worried about her. And I wouldn’t let him leave the room because him and I were fighting. And he said, the police came and they're like, Oh, it's kidnapping. You assaulted him? And I was like, no. And then public safety came and got me that morning kicked me off campus. They said I couldn't go back to campus unless I got like a full mental health paperwork, basically, like 50 pages of like evaluations, which made it impossible. So, I ended up transferring and yeah. It's been five years this year. So, the statute of limitations is almost up. I still haven't gotten my sheets back and they were really nice sheets. So, I think about them all the time. And yeah, that's kind of it. After when I was in college, I already had mental health issues but this, like exacerbated them to the point where it was so severe. I was hospitalized my junior year because of it. Because I just kept pushing it and pushing it and pushing it back and being busy because being a workaholic is like my coping thing. And it got to the point where it just became an issue. And then yeah, I finished college on time. Ironically, I didn't get to walk. But I finished in August. So, I was so class to 2019. And yeah, now I'm in Brooklyn,
 
Marissa: Thank you for sharing all of that. I think that your openness and your experience is really, really helpful for a lot of people. I think that it's eye opening to see and to hear how poorly schools handle sexual assault, specifically colleges handle sexual assault. And I don't mean to make this political. But you know, Title IX was put in place to prevent and protect survivors. To prevent sexual assault, and protect students who have been assaulted. And it's clear that that was very overlooked. And it was swept under the rug as his sexual assault all over the place.
 
Ally: Yeah. And what's funny is I had a really good relationship with Title IX Coordinator after it happened. And I think about that regularly I remember when I transferred emailing her and was like, I need like, what just happened basically, and I didn't get much back. And also the school I went to Ramapo College in New Jersey, had a nickname before I came as Rape-o-Po. When I was there, especially as a freshman, we would get these notifications that public safety had like apprehended someone for like, sexual assault, or whatever. And we got so many my first semester there. It was like, every day something happened. And like, it was always in the freshman dorms, for the most part. And it's kind of like hindsight, you know? Like, if I knew them. Well, you know, now I think I would have been a little more obnoxiously loud about it. If I know my rights and felt more empowered. But I didn't have resources. I didn't know anyone who had happened to until a little bit after it happened. And then when I transferred, I actually met a couple people at my new school who had gone through a similar experience. It was like eye opening. I was like, shook. I was like, this isn't just a me thing. It's something I think about a lot. My little sister is going to be a junior in college. And when she went to college, I bugged out. I was like, absolutely not like you can stay home. And she was like, absolutely not and that was like then you could tell everyone what I went through. You're smart. So, she definitely took it to heart and she told all her friends and now she's in a sorority. So, I told her whoever she needs to tell. Just do it. I'm not completely healed from it, I realized recently that the statute limitations were going to be up I think it was a few like a month or two ago. I thought about like hard and I freaked out for a second.
 
Marissa: Did you ever make a report? Or is there like an investigation going on about it?
 
Ally: No. So when I went to the police, they said that they wouldn’t and investigate it. The school didn't investigate it. And I didn't want to hire a lawyer because when people hear mental illness, there's a stigma. Just like when people find that we make assumptions. And for me, it's genetic, and that will sometimes overlook isolated incidences that have happened. They're going to think of that first before they think of who did the thing. And with mental illness. I mean, you can see it. I've like gotten brain scans done, because I'm annoying like that. But you can't, it's not tangible. I can't like hold it. So, they say here, like, Oh, she has a DSM diagnosis, they're going to see that first and then be like, what if she made the whole thing up, which makes me so angry, because if I wanted to make this up, I think I would have thought of a way better, way more Lifetime Movie story. Like, if I want to make this up, I would have gotten like, done some research. You know, like how to been like a way more attractive guy, to be honest. But you can't make this kind of stuff up.
Marissa: Right, I think you're completely spot on, especially in the mental illness area. I mean, people immediately downplay the validity of anything that someone with mental illness says, even if it's unconscious, it's just like, ingrained in us. And that needs to change. Because people with mental illness are actually way more susceptible to being abused for that exact reason. People target mentally ill or vulnerable people, because they know they are more likely to get away with it. And I mean, 98% of people who are convicted of a sexual assault crime, don't spend a single day in jail anyways. All it is, is finding and targeting the vulnerable people knowing in their hearts, that they'll be fine, like the perpetrators will be fine.
 
Ally: Absolutely. And I think that we also have to talk about the fact that it's not just people with mental illness, it's women, or the LGBTQ+ community, of women of color, trans women of color are statistically so much more likely to experience any type of abuse or sexual violence because of their gender, and because of their status. And that for me, we cannot talk about stigmatization without talking about uncontrollable factors. But just talking about race and color, minority women, I forget the exact number but are much more likely to be victims of assault. And for me, mental illness and skin color, It's not the same. But when people again, they do target more vulnerable populations, because if I had told my story, and a woman of color, I told the same story, I bet my bottom dollar with a woman of color probably wouldn't have gotten a chance to even talk to the cop. And that has to be acknowledged because my privilege is in this situation. I have had the opportunity to go report it and be taken seriously. But I can't say that some people would have that for me just makes me even more mad.
 
Marissa: Oh, yeah, completely. They did a studying across a couple colleges. I don't remember exactly which colleges. They had two women, a person of color and a white woman tell a very similar story about sexual assault. And the majority of people believed the white woman's story. And the majority, I don't remember the percentage, I think it was like 80% of the participants believe that the person of color was lying. It was just disgusting.
 
Ally: Rape doesn't discriminate. It doesn't. It can happen to literally anyone. It's happened to I know older adults. I know guys. It doesn't discriminate, but people and service providers and authorities do. Part of the reason I ran away to Brooklyn, and because New Jersey just had a history with me that wasn't fully resolved. And now when I go home, I still think about those traumas. I take the train I think about you know, like, well, everything and moving to Brooklyn. I don't recommend anyone run away from their problems. Um, but it definitely helped. It definitely put me away from the situation to get more perspective on it because I'm not so like, this is at my mom's house where I had a fight with her after it happened. This is the train that I cried on when I went home that day. Everything here is fresh, and…
 
Marissa: Untainted, right, yeah. Which I actually tend to think can be a really therapeutic and good thing. After my abuse. I literally packed up two duffel bags and moved to Israel for a year. So, I don't particularly think escapism is such a terrible move if it works for you. You have to give yourself space and time to re-evaluate and to reconnect and learn to love yourself again, after abuse. And I needed to leave the continent. I was in a different time zone. Like I was very far away, but it gave me a full year to find myself again to learn who I was to rewire my brain and learn what love really meant. And for you, it was an opportunity for you to rebuild yourself. To reconnect the dots, and find out something that you really wanted to do and something that gave you life again and gave you passion.
 
Ally: Yeah, so I'm 23. I don't have kids. I don't have a cat, right now. So, I'm kind of, I'm not responsible to anyone but myself. I always say like myself, my mom and God, but not even really my mom anymore. And my career is my biggest focus right now because these kids and these parents that I work with are, they don't realize how much they helped me. When I was working for the foster care agency, I was going through it. Like I was new to the city, I didn't know anyone, I had these kids, and they were my friends. Like, let's be real They were my pals. And they made it for me, you know, like that. And the parents having conversations with them. I  had one client, she, I'll never forget her. We had the same initials. So, I was like, this is meant to be we're meant to be like BFFs. Her and I were talking and she said to me, like, Oh, you can't make me go to therapy. But I was like, Listen, I go. Literally Three weeks later, she went. And then I had another little girl who was involved in a sexual violence case and she I disclosed to her that something similar had happened to me what but when I was a lot older. I had been working with this girl for about six months, a little over six months. And her energy shifted and it took about one thing for me to say for her to like, let that… I felt it like we were on zoom, obviously… But I felt it lower And I realized that I'm not going to disclose everything to every client. But you know, parents, I'm 23 years old, I'm not a parent. So, your parents are like, what's your basis? And I'm like, less, and no one goes into social work, because they've had an easy life. That's like, I'm getting that tattooed across my forehead.
 
Marissa: I wouldn't recommend that. No, but it's true. People ask me all the time. You know, I tell them what I do and about my coaching and stuff. And they said, you know, oh, well, how'd you get into that? And I just give them a look. I mean, you know how I got into this. Everybody who does social work. Who does this work. It's because we experienced it, and we've overcome it. And we know how much it hurts. So we want to help.
 
Ally: Absolutely. And I think that this is the best way for me to heal. Because I have a severe history of trauma. But with that comes a severe history of avoiding my issues and watching Netflix to cope. But I realized that's not effective at all. So my time with my clients, I really make sure that if I'm having a bad day, or I'm like really stuck on what happened or anything that's happened, I throw myself into my work. I'm like, let's get this done. And I do and I immediately come out of that day feeling accomplished. Put a lot of money in the karma bank. And I feel like I did a service to others when a service wasn't done to me. I wasn't given a fair shot when it happened. I still don't think it was fair. But if I can do the work that I would have wished was done for me. I think that for me makes it a little bit worth it.
 
Marissa: I agree. And I think that now that people are speaking out about their abuse and feeling more supported and empowered, and knowing what we didn't have, it makes us want to change the world more. I mean, why else would we be working so hard to create programs and a world of speaking out, you know. Of, I Am Vanessa Guillen, of all of these things, these programs, these hashtags are all coming out now. It's because we went through it and the people who went through it and felt silenced, hated it, and they hated themselves. And we learned to hate people and, hold and bottle up these emotions that are so toxic. That's enough. I know for myself; I never want another person to go through what I went through and not have a place to turn.
 
Ally: Right. I 100% agree with you. And I think that also a lot of it has to do with, I reconnected with that ex boyfriend that I was with recently. And I talked to him about it and it was a lot of forgiveness too. And I think that having the ability to give people a safe space, but also forgive. I could harbor a lot but the path of forgiveness has been a lot too because he actually showed up on my Tinder when I was home once and I was like Oh no. And I screen shotted it and sent it to everyone I know. And you know, I look for him in crowds, but I've had to learn to forgive that because I'm like if I see him on the Myrtle-Wycoff subway, what am I really going to do? Forgiveness and giving people a safe space the other day I told you, you Went on Facebook, I was out at Trader Joe's, um, and I came back I was going to take the bus home and this guy in a wheelchair was being so creepy to this young woman. She couldn't have been any older than me. He was a cute old man at first and it was he opened his mouth and I was like, Oh, no. So, I waited. He was being really creepy. Not everyone has that hyper-vigilance with them. So, I went over to her and I was like, Listen, I'm just going to hang out with you until your bus comes. And the guy pepper sprays me on the side of the face. And he likes wheels off and was like cursing at me. And I was like, Oh, okay. But I felt good. Like it hurt. Like, often felt like I stuck my face to a pan, but it felt good. And that girl was like, so grateful And no one around, said anything did anything. The woman that was like watching. She was homeless. She was like, you better not come to these parts again. I was like, this is my favorite Trader Joe's. And I was like, I'm not just going to let this happen. So, there I was like, my makeup was melting off, and I sat on the bus and I went home. I called like my mom; I called all my friends. And I was talking to them. I was like, do you do the same thing? One. And are you do you experience that hyper vigilance, too? Because New York is a different vibe than jersey? I think any big city is New York, I literally am in my Sunday sweats. No makeup, hair in a bun looking like a Sewer Ogre and I get catcalled, and followed home. People will drive Follow me on their cars. I asked my friend; I was like this has happened to you. And do you do anything about it? And do you always freak out? Because I realized it's not exclusively the catcallers anymore. It's men who sit next to me on the subway. It's like if someone is it, like someone was in the elevator with me at Target, and I clenched up. It was a reaction. And I realized that that was reaction to trauma. What my point is, I'm not completely over it. Because now at night before I go to bed, I get up to pee. I get up out of bed at least five times, just like I did that night and I haven't stopped the last five years. I've literally had to take like sedatives and like OCD medication to like, make it stop. So, I could just like, go to bed, like a normal person. Some other things I still, you know, it's a hyper vigilance. It's constantly thinking I'm going to see this guy in crowds. People get too close to me It's not fun. If I'm like walking down the street, I automatically have my headphones lowered because I know one that there's going to be cat collars and chew that there's a high chance that I'll be falling home. It's been five years and I thought that it would be completely over it by now. Oh, you're going to be cool in five years, like, you're going to be fine. You're going to be hot, skinny and living it and I was like, Okay, well, I'm still not over it. So, it's not a linear process.
 
Marissa: What do you do that helps you in comments of feeling triggered or feeling like a PTSD flare up? Do you use music and write like, what do you do?
Ally: So, I do several things. I have a lot of dance parties and a lot of like rap battles with myself. I'm not joking earlier today; I found this song Girls From the Hood by Megan Thee Stallion. And I was like, this is my song. So I like sat down and memorized it because I was so anxious about just like life. I learned to cook I'm not good at it. Last night, I was cooking some potatoes And I was like thinking about it And I was like really touching those potatoes, who is boss And I also talk about it. You know, if someone asked me why I'm anxious, I'm like, do you mind if I tell you a story? And I tell them about it. And I make it known. If I have a client that is a sex abuse case, I try to let my supervisor know that hey, there are times I might get triggered. All Child Welfare cases are relatively triggering for me but sex abuse cases now hit. They're like, specifically in my niche. I always let my supervisor know, there might there might come a time where I’m bugging out. One day I was working I was testifying after court. And I came back to the agency and I just sat at my desk and stress ate like three things of McDonald’s fries, and cried. And my supervisor was like, are you okay? I'm like, you know, the thing I just did and she was like, Okay, well, stress eat your fries. And that's kind of my coping. But for others, as a professional, I really recommend talking to someone about it. Trauma comes out in different ways; trauma can come out in physical symptoms. So, you could be shaking. You could talk a lot, you could have a high heart rate, you could be constantly dehydrated. Trauma comes out somatically. Trauma comes out emotionally and mentally. So, I recommend talking about it. If you feel like for me sleeping is the worst. So, I take medication for it, if that's necessary. I also recommend finding support and others because the minute I found that peer that I discussed earlier, she helped me through it. And then her rapist ended up passing away. So, he passed away like right before something where like a legal battle was about to happen. So, I helped her, she helped me. And people I know who went through it, it's kind of like a, an ally-ship, if you will, as long as you're not a danger to yourself or others, please do what you got to do. And if you are, please contact 911 or Crisis Text Line or so many resources.
 
Marissa: You can’t even express verbally, what truly happens to you, but it changes you.  And you're living in your crime scene forever. And the way that a crime scene for a murder, that room is tainted and, it's the same thing with your body. Like it's a complete violation of your sense of self; of your privacy; of your personal space; of your mind. I mean, you are totally changed.
 
Ally: If you want to go into like nerdy stuff, your brain chemistry changes too. Your brain literally rewires itself, your brain chemistry gets off put because you're trying to re trying to overcome for like the whole trauma of it and the shock. So, you go through that your cortisone levels change, and your brain literally rewires itself to adapt to this new version of you. And that happens with any trauma. And that's why trauma-care is so important because a lot of people don't realize that. You go through a complete rewiring. And then if you have injuries from it, you're going to have scars. So, your body chemistry and your physiology changes when that happens. So that's why I think it's so important that you see a provider afterwards. I highly recommend it because you have to get used to the new you, and you might as well have someone by your side to help you.
 
Marissa: Thank you for sharing all of that. Thank you so much for being here and for using your voice and your experience to help other people overcome their trauma. You are the best and I adore you.
 
Ally: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse?, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like,

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Men Have Emotions Too: with Matt Erickson

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse, the podcast. Today, I'm so excited for my friend and this like awesome local musician Matt Erickson to join me. I really wanted to talk about how the word sensitive is a very effeminate word in society. And I personally think that that's bullshit. I think that it does not allow people that are masculine to express themselves, it really stops them from being able to do that. And I wanted to address that with none other than my awesome friend who is perfect to talk about this with. He is a local musician. He plays guitar for Oppressed Affliction. And you can find him on Instagram and Spotify. I'll put the links in the description. Welcome on Matt. I'm so excited. This is so far overdue.
 
Matt: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. I'm so excited to do this for like, how many months have we've been talking about this? I think it's been at least four.
 
Marissa: I've been doing it. I've been doing this podcast since January. And I think you were like the second person I talked to so probably…
 
Matt: There we go.
 
Marissa: Thank you so much. I'm excited to talk to you about this. So I grew up female, and I am a heterosexual cisgender female woman. So I've never been told that I'm not allowed to feel what I'm feeling. Have you as a male growing up male, had that experience?
 
Matt: Oh, 100%. And so really quick, kind of the whole thing. I'll just get what I am out there right on the table. And this is something that 10 years ago, I almost wouldn't have even thought to say publicly, but I am a bisexual cis-gendered male. I grew up very much around my mom and my sister, and my sister's friends. And I was always friends with girls, seemed to get along a lot better with them growing up. Really the only male figure I had a lot in my life was my father. So luckily, I think at some point, in that small group, everyone was like, "Oh, you can feel what you feel you can be sensitive, it's good to be sensitive.” But somewhere along the line, I started seeing it a little bit more, like very subtle imagery, especially in you know, the media, and in movies and everything that like men aren't supposed to have feelings. You were all supposed to bottle it up. And then one day I'll die. Stealing that a little bit from John Mulaney. But I was told that a few times, like especially when I started crying, sometimes people be like, Oh, come on, man. Suck it up. Suck it up. Don't cry. Don't do that don't show emotion. Like, in order to be a man in order to be respected, you shouldn't cry like that. You shouldn't cry in public. There were actually a lot of times where I remember growing up where I would cry in the middle of class. Literally, while someone's trying to teach but I was getting bullied and I was, you know, sob story, sob story, sob story. I would be getting bullied in the middle of class, I would start crying about it. And sometimes even my friends in the class would be like, “Dude, you're not supposed to cry, you're a boy. Don't cry in the middle of class. Don't do this. Don't show your emotions.” I used to be able to cry easier than I do now. But I think it has affected me a lot. Looking back at it.
 
 
Marissa: That makes total sense. It affects your ability to allow yourself to feel and process emotions. When you're told over and over again, real men don't cry. Real men don't cry, be a big boy. You know. Boys don't cry. Boys don't get sad, they get angry. And I think that that process is different. It disallows you from really understanding your emotional capacity. And it manifests into just rage. So I think that's why and thank you for disclosing, you know, your sexual identity, I really appreciate that.
 
Matt: If I may, like the whole sensitivity thing. That was a whole other reason, though, that I would even keep… it was even just, you know, the social disregard for being even bisexual, or for being gay or LGBTQ. Like, God bless that, well, whatever, bless whatever bless that for. We can get into that conversation a whole other time. But, but bless the fact that I can come out and say that without you know, you know… a lot of people are a lot more confident than I am and their sexuality and being able to say that. Again, as I said, 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to say that and I think a big part of that was kind of like an effeminate trade that it was a sensitive trait that it was this, that or the other thing. And I was almost embarrassed about it to the point where only a few people knew about my sexuality at the time. And I was keeping something that was so important to my identity so far under wraps that I would literally only tell my closest friends. Luckily, in the past five or six years or so I've grown more comfortable in that fact. I've been able to express it to those that I love. And as recently as I think, it was last year was the first time I made a public post about it to Facebook. And honestly, the reaction to that was overwhelming. And I mean, it that was actually a moment where I started, I was at a show, and I was about to get up and play. And my cousin had called me and I'll never forget this. He saw that I had come out and he can he said, what you did, takes a lot of courage. So thank you for that. I know this is kind of a little off topic. But I feel like it is an important story to still talk about sensitivity and being able to be comfortable in your own skin. Because he calls me and I started I actually started crying like in the middle of this bar right before I was supposed to play a metal show, because it meant the world to me that someone of my family was just like, “Dude, that's so cool. Thank you for that. I had no idea.”
 
Marissa: So it's really beautiful.
 
Matt: Thinking about it tears me up a little bit. And the other thing was, I didn't know how my parents would react and they've come around, and they've and they still love and accept me. And my dad especially, I didn't know how he would take it. But like when I did come out. He called me a few days later, because actually, I hadn't seen him when he found out. He called me a few days later and said, I'd love you no matter what. And it was it was one of those rare moments that like I, feel like you know, my dad sometimes falls into that sensitivity trap that he like I've seen it, he tries to be very strong, he tries to be very stoic about a lot of things. So it's kind of rare to see him show emotion. Luckily, as his kid, he shows it a little more towards me. So he said, I love you no matter what, and I accept you. And that was another time where I had like I was in the middle school. In college, I almost broke down. I’m someone that wears my emotions on my sleeve. So even if I'm not crying, you can see what I'm feeling. And that does a lot of times when the sadness is there does kind of convert physically to rage because I can't express it at that moment. I've been taught still by the society at large that, you know, man up, sack up, take life as it is. And I feel that might actually be a big reason that I kind of suffer from a lot of anxiety, because there's like these two parts of me fighting of express every emotion, but also don't.
 
Marissa: I think that's a big reason why male survivors have a very difficult time coming forward. And I know that you've disclosed to me outside of this, that you have not experienced significant sexual harassment or assault or abuse or anything, which is phenomenal. And I'm obviously very happy that that has not happened to you. But for the people that it has, those same emotions, anxiety and holding it in, and manifesting into rage. Those are all after-effects of abuse and not being equipped with the tools or resources to process that. And then on top of that being told to sack up or be a man or men don't cry or you calling them a pansy. It really plays a huge role in the victimization and low-reported numbers of male survivors.
 
Matt: Oh, absolutely. And, and it's funny that you brought up like the processing and everything. Like I kind of want to dissect a few things, because I'm gonna say some things that might also be a little hypocritical. I just, I'd rather be fully honest. So first and foremost, I do want to touch on the processes. I do remember growing up, I think my generation has made it so much more acceptable to be a sensitive, but being an artist. I think even being a musician, you're supposed to bare your soul, you're supposed to bury your emotions. So the fact that everyone wants to be an artist is such an important thing. And it's so important to make sure that you can express yourself. Now that being said, I can actually speak very directly to this sometimes when you're a metal head. It's supposed to come out as rage. You're not supposed to necessarily show crying or feelings like that because you're supposed to be this big badass Rockstar. No. Fuck that man. Fuck that. I remember one of the times that I respected my favorite guitarists the most, Sinister Gates from Avenged Sevenfold. The time I respected him the most was when I saw after the drummer passed, they played a song that the drummer wrote. Rest in peace, Jimmy, but I saw a video of him onstage in front of 14,000 people. He had to kind of look away, start crying. And you could just see it in him that like, I mean, he was breaking down in front of 14,000 people and I thought it was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. So the whole thing as well like. All these older metal heads are like suck up Don't be a pussy, it is prevalent. And I will admit, sometimes it takes a toll on me. And sometimes it makes me almost feel like an imposter, it also starts to bring on that imposter syndrome of, Oh, I'm not tough enough to be this metal guy. I'm not tough enough to be this musician, badass. But then I'm like, wait a minute. The whole reason I got into it was to express myself fuck that I'm gonna feel the way I feel and hopefully be able to write about it.
 
Marissa: But as a musician and an artist, especially in the scene that you're in the metal scene, how do you find that balance between being the tough screaming rage monster that, you know Avenged Sevenfold, and Atreyu, and all those big metal bands, like they manifest their rage into their music, versus the sensitivity that it also takes to be an artist and be able to wear your heart on your sleeve? How do you find that balance?
 
Matt: So a lot of times the macho-man persona, it's almost like a face to wear. And part of that, I'll straight up admit is kind of for marketing reasons, like I can portray myself as whoever I want to be on Instagram and Facebook, I can show you at my best all the time, and I want to show my best. I really do. And the thing that I think I have more respect for when I see, you know, guys like Jared Dines admit to things like this, is when they're able to be vulnerable and say, I am sensitive. I am nervous. I am a wreck. Like when these big names can say that I think the balance is still being able to show yourself and showing it through your music. But also still being able to be real with your followers and with your friends and family. And that's all I ever try to be. And it's bullshit to ever try and market yourself as someone else. And on the same course, this is something though that I do struggle with. Because of that pressure to be that person sometimes will be joking around. And I'll say something that I'll catch myself as being toxic masculinity. I think it's all about context. And sometimes I use that toxic masculinity to get a few cheap laughs. And it sounds horrible to say, but sometimes it happens. But I never want people to ever think that they can't go to their closest friend. They can't come to me. That they can't go to their family. They should have someone to go to. And if any of my friends or family are listening, I hope they know that they can do that for me.
 
Marissa: There are a couple things that you said that I want to kind of touch back on. And I'm trying to scribble notes as you're talking because you say so many great things. So one thing that you said I want to address is that there's beauty and vulnerability. As a person who has a fan base and who has a presence in a platform, being able to express yourself. It humanizes you. When you express yourself as a person, as a human being that has emotions and baggage and bad days. I think it makes you relatable to people. And I think that's why we like who we like.
 
Matt: Oh 100% and that's again, why I'm so drawn to those people that make like, you know, the My Chemical Romances of the world. Panic At The Disco’s. So raw and so emotional that you can feel their pain, you know, when you can bare your soul like that in your art that is still just as humanizing is just making a social media post. Boys from a young age are taught that ballet, that music, that poetry. All these things are girly. You're supposed to play sports, and you're supposed to play basketball and you're supposed to want to blow shit up. And don't get me wrong I did all that stuff, too, because it's fun. I was very lucky that I had parents that supported my music from a young age. They knew that playing music was going to be important for me. That being said, I do remember kind of trying to be steered away from the violin, because it was less masculine. And it was more that it was boring. But I look back at that and thinking like, wait a minute, no, but the other thing was I had wanted to play trumpet since I was four. So like, they were just trying to steer me back to that. But I do remember though a lot of boys that started on clarinet, on flute, on violin, on all these things. They were kind of poked and prodded on a little bit. And luckily, as the years went by, I noticed that go away. But that is something that is so systemically wrong with our society. That we want to push people to do more of the arts, but at the same time, we have kids, we have adults, we have certain people in our lives that say no, the arts are not for boys.
 
Marissa: Boys should be collecting bugs and playing with GI Joe. And anything outside of that is not, it's not a boy activity. And that's so inherently, first of all, it's inherently incorrect. Also just it's such a horrible baseline to create for somebody because those are resources and tools to help get over emotional trauma.
 
Matt: Exactly, I mean, I used music all through my years from when I found it. I kind of had a rebirth in middle school where I didn't like music for a while, it was boring. But then like seventh grade, something switched. And I started feeling more, I started listening more, I started understanding more about myself. And I was tormented all the time from elementary school through the later I'm sorry, the early parts of high school, people did not like me. They thought I was a nerd. They thought I was weird. I was picked on relentlessly. And sometimes, you know, it got the better of me. But I would go home and I would practice trumpet; I would practice guitar. So in my experience, the arts have done nothing but help. The other thing is, is that I'm also trying to make my art a career. So now, the whole, your own worst critic comes into play, but then I can't express myself in any other way. So then it's kind of this, this sort of cycle of, I feel like I can't express myself, but what I need to express myself with feels like it's not good enough. And all this stupid stuff that like turns into just depression, and depression, naps.
 
Marissa: It's a vicious cycle. You want to express yourself to make your music as good as it possibly can. But you've been wired to not express yourself. And that's frustrating, you know. And that's why so many people have such severe anger problems. Because men specifically have been trained not to feel. If you're feeling like crying, you're not masculine enough. I want to know, from your opinion, where do we start to change it? Because there's a clear generational problem. Us in our age group. And I want to say maybe the age group above us and below us are kind of caught in this pickle between our parents were raised in a very, “Boys will be boys, and men are strong. And women are meek,” kind of mindset. And they're stuck there. You know, I don't know if we're going to be able to change that. And the people younger than us are doing such a phenomenal job about being inclusive and accepting. And so where do we start?
 
Matt: I don't want to say where we start. But I want to say where we can continue, where we can continue that is almost making sure that we take those lessons, and we enhance them. And we make sure that people understand that no matter what your race, creed, whatever your sexuality, whatever you are as a person, is accepted. That is first and foremost. And a big part of that, I believe it's also just through education. I think the more you actually educate people, and we improve our educational system, the more we'll actually be able to have an emotional intelligence. People will be able to have different thoughts, and they'll be able to read stories that have more complex emotions, and earlier age. So to sum it up, where we are isn't necessarily in that bad position, it can always be better. And I think that where we can continue is by making sure everyone's included, making sure that everyone is educated, making sure everyone is more cultured than I am. Making sure people understand that it's okay to feel to look for the deeper meaning in the stories. And to also make sure they understand that it's okay to have something that may feel effeminate, but isn't it's just expressing who you are.
 
Marissa: Things are only feminine and masculine. When we assign a label to it, you know, so instead of saying, “Oh, that's like a girly toy,” why don't we say, “That's a cool toy.” I don't care. They shouldn't be assigned a gender label, because they're things, is a huge important first step. You mentioned something about characters in movies, I want to say that the vast majority still in 2020, the vast majority of the heroes of movies are male, it's usually from a male perspective, not always, but the majority. And nine times out of ten, that male will show anger and not sadness. And will show anger and not fear. And will show frustration and not anguish. So we are characterizing people in the media, and in movies, and in video games, and in music, as macho and angry and aggressive. And the second they show sensitivity, It's usually a character that's if they show weakness or sensitivity it's usually a character that is either a female or homosexual in some way. Has some sort of caveat as to why they're sensitive, because we need it to make them more effeminate in order to show that that's a normal emotion for that character. No men can also be sensitive, that plays a role in males. survivors.
 
Matt: So really quick one thing I do want to point out the movies thing I 100% agree with. I think that's totally true, the productive, they're predominantly male, they're predominantly cisgendered straight men, that usually express their emotions as anger, and those are going to be the popular movies. Now, one thing I do want to say is, is when you step away from just the movies, and you go to TV shows. I used to write off a couple of these shows, because I thought they were just childish and dumb. But then I actually sat down and watched them, you know, I was so into, like, Family Guy and American dad that I didn't really want to watch any other cartoons anymore. First and foremost, I'm just going to start with a classic SpongeBob. Listen to me, I'm serious. He is this. He is successful at what he does. He loves what he's doing. He has a lot of friends. He's well respected in his community, you might not be like the most masculine person in the world. But at the same time, he still shows emotion. But they don't say whether or not he's masculine or not. They're just portraying him as SpongeBob. And, and he's a guy that has male characteristics and doesn't care. And I think you know, the fact that we grew up with that is incredible. The other thing I want to say though, is I used to sleep on Adventure Time, and Steven Universe. Two shows that the current generation is growing up watching in their very formative years. I watched Adventure Time, from the time I was about 16, till I was about 19. I remember so specifically watching Adventure Time and seeing Finn cry in almost every other episode. But he was the main hero, he was fighting everything. And he was doing so well. They showed his emotion. And I thought that was groundbreaking to make sure that a character that kids could look up to, wasn't just angry all the time. But he was anguished, he showed his tears. And then when I saw Steven Universe, I was even more like holy shit, like, damn. The reason I'm listing to these examples is because I just also want to make sure that if people haven't seen them, that they go and watch them. And they understand that there are characters that are there. I don't disagree that a majority are going to be these people that just show anger and rage. And I think it's an important thing to portray. So to continue, we have to make sure that movies and TV shows aren't just showing the females and the effeminate males as having emotions. But also the more stoic men, pull back the curtain a little bit, make sure they feel something. I think we're on the right track for the next generation. There's always going to be progress to be made. And I think that the groundwork has been laid, I think sometimes we take away a lot of credit, from the boomer generation, I think there were some very deep held beliefs about boys being boys and all that crap. But I do want to still throw them some credit, because we still got a lot of our morals from them. And a lot of them like my parents, especially, I've actually been very open to ideas that I have. And I think they've learned just as much from me, as I have from them. Just learn from each other.
 
Marissa: And I know that I had a very similar conversation, just this part in a past podcast episode with Rob Crowther, and Risa Pappas. that we are resilient people, like people, humans were resilient. The problem is, we're uncomfortable with change. And I think that's where a lot of the disconnect between the generations comes from, is because you grow up in a society that does things a certain way, and when the next generation comes, and they change that, it makes you uncomfortable. And what we need to do is recognize that change is good, change is progressive, and to roll with the changes. So we can all be on the right side of history. I would really like to see our generation and the generation that are having kids now, create that more open culture of empowering people to feel and process those feelings in a healthy and productive way. And maybe the amount of depression and anxiety and self mutilation and suicide, all of that will subside, because people have healthy coping mechanisms. Like you with music, and me with art and writing. And I would love to see a world where that's encouraged
 
Matt: When we talk about sports or anything like that being a masculine trait. It is still though a valid process of showing emotion and processing through your emotions. You know, when I was younger, and I would get upset before I knew about music, I would actually go outside and I would shoot basketball.
 
Marissa: Athleticism and doing activities that are at this exact juncture labeled masculine isn't a bad thing, right? You know, I just I don't want them to be labeled masculine or feminine.
 
Matt: It's just to make sure that no matter what your coping mechanism for your emotions are, that you don't belittle another's about it. I think that's the big thing. It's calling for equality and making sure that the oppressed don't become the oppressors. If that makes sense. You know, don't shame others for their coping mechanism. But make sure they understand that what you're doing is healthy for what you are, it's being able to identify yourself. It's being able to express yourself, it's being able to find a way to process your sensitivity, and for being able to make sure that you can still feel.
 
Marissa: And to tie it all full circle. I mean, that's a really good point. Bullies are usually people who have been hurt and don't know how to process what they're feeling; that sadness, so it just becomes anger. But now I want to come back full circle, and talk about how that contributes to men disclosing abuse. Not being able to portray your emotions for fear of backlash. For fear of bullying. For fear of victim blaming. How can we change that?
 
Matt: I think first and foremost, it's taking away a lot of the stigmas of mental health especially, I think that's first and foremost. I think it's making sure that people need to understand that their mental health needs to come first. The important thing is to never label someone that does that “crazy,” or anything like that, or weak. Probably one of the strongest things you can do is to go to someone mental health, you need to invest in that. That is number one. Number two, is making sure that we never tell survivors that you're a guy, you can't be assaulted in that way. It's so important to understand that sexual harassment and sexual abuse goes both ways. A man can be raped. A man can be abused. A man can have these encounters, part of hyper-masculinity and toxic masculinity is that you should enjoy being touched by a woman. That is such a toxic way of looking at the world. Because then it can lead to so many women that have taken advantage of men get away with it. and then the guy is just stuck there. Anxious and depressed. It's just so unfortunate.
 
Marissa: Thank you for saying all that I think you're spot on. I can't speak for males. I've never been a male. But from the men I've spoken to and from the people I interviewed for my book Breaking Through the Silence: #MenToo , a lot of those people, maybe they weren't all abused by women, maybe some by other men. But either way, they don't have resources. They're blamed because they should have been stronger and able to overpower the woman. Or their sexuality comes into question or they asked why didn't they like it? Or I mean, it's just it's so silly that we're changing the world after the #MeToo movement. Everything is changing for women. Abusers are starting to be held accountable for hurting women, for sexually assaulting women, for raping and beating women. But men are kind of still out there fending for themselves. And I just don't think that's fair. And that's the inspiration for my book, Breaking Through the Silence: #MenToo , because their voices weren't being heard. I think that we are one survivor community, and everybody should be supported and resources should be available for everyone, not just women.
 
Matt: I just expect every human being to be held accountable for their actions. I don't think that's too much to ask.
 
Marissa: I completely agree with that. I don't understand why some people can be tried and hold more value in society than other people. Why some people who are convicted on rape charges will get a day or six months, and other people will get 6 years, 10 years. Isn't it all the same thing? I mean, the FBI qualifies rape as the second most violent crime behind homicide. So why isn't it tried and taken the same seriousness and severity.
 
Matt: And the thing is, is like making sure that male survivors are able to get their voices out without feeling shame. And the thing that anyone should realize listening to this is that at the end of the day, I think the biggest thing in the world right now, that leads to a lot of our societal issues is a lack of empathy. I think that is the biggest thing. But it's so important to look at the stories of abuse victims. Just because they're not your stereotypical situation that they can't feel. You know, you have to make sure that you understand. You can feel something deep inside your soul that is wrong about the situation. And you can learn to listen to them. But I think some people have become so cynical that they tune out feelings. I think they don't want to feel anymore. So they just, they only care about what they're feeling and they don't care about anyone else.
 
Marissa: There's definitely more work to do. Is there anything else that you want to talk about that we have not covered?
 
Matt: It's so important to have a community of humans that care for each other, and to make sure we maintain that social empathy. I think that's the best way to put it. It's like no matter what's wrong with the world at the end of the day, remember that we're all on this pale blue dot together.
 
Marissa: Thank you so much for everything for talking with me about this and being open and honest, I really appreciate your time and your feedback and your perspective. I think that you're such a smart and grounded individual and I just have so much respect for you. So thank you.
 
Matt: I really Appreciate that.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, empathy, social empathy, empath, empathy meaning, empathetic, empathy definition, have empathy, define empathy, being empathetic, cultural empathy, sensitive, what does sensitivity mean, emotional males, what does hypersensitive mean, male emotions psychology, emotionally stunted men, men are more emotional than women, women are more emotional than men, women more emotional than men, what does the word sensitive mean, men’s psychology in love, men have emotions too, men are more emotional, emotionally intelligent men,
Follow Matt on Social Media: 
Instagram: @oamatterickson
 

Healing From Emotional Abuse: MST Military Sexual Trauma Movement: with Melissa King

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. I have received so much support and positive feedback from people about IAmVanessaGuillen and having military sexual trauma movement, and MST survivor and champions speaking out about their assaults. But what really makes me proud is the amount of love support and encouragement my co-hosts have received from this community and their friends and loved ones. The military, as we've so subtly stated, has a tendency to sweep these assaults under the rug. But enough is enough. And clearly it's time to speak out and change some policies. Today, I'm so honored to bring on Melissa King. She is a marine veteran that served eight years, four active and four in the inactive reserves. She's a badass champion who's speaking out about her abuse, and how the Marines mishandled, didn’t acknowledge and completely ignored it. She's here today to share her story and empower other military sexual assault champions to speak out too. Hey, Melissa, how are you today?
 
Melissa: I'm pretty good. How are you?
 
Marissa: Oh, I'm so good. Thank you for being here.
 
Melissa: You thanks for inviting me. Thanks for asking.
 
Marissa: So if you wouldn't mind, tell us your story.
 
Melissa: So I guess my story starts with my recruiter back in 2010. Looking back now, he was a predator. I was 21 when I joined the Marine Corps. And when I was in the cadet program, being poolee before I entered to go into boot camp, and he was a sergeant. And I don't know how our, quote unquote relationship started. But it eventually led to like us being intimate at one point. And I don't know, like, looking back now, I highly, like regret everything that happened. And it was definitely an abuse of power that he pulled. And I know, I wasn't the first. And I know after I left, I definitely was not the last. He like pursued me through things like telling me he would wait for me. And that I was the one for him like little things that women would like to hear from a man but I know had no value and no weight to them. I remember telling my best friend Blake at the time about what was happening and he was upset. And he was mad. But he didn't say anything to anyone. He didn't report it. And I didn't report it. And I think that's sometimes we regret it now, but I think was for the best. I think it would have like destroyed our career before we even started. And then I got to MOS school in 2011. And I was living in the barracks and there was this corporal who was a barracks manager. I later found out that he was from infantry MOS. So I'm from Dispersium, like, I do finance and everything. He was an infantry Marine, but he was I think, such a complete shitbag that they removed him from the unit, just put them in the barracks. And he was in charge of, you know, taking care of rooms management. And I forget how that whole thing started. But I remember he would like text me late at night. He was a corporal and I'm pretty sure he was like, married with a kid. And he would like text me late at night and be like, what are you doing? What are you wearing? There was one day, in February right before the Superbowl, he called me to his office. And I remember I was in my Cami’s. And he's like, leaning back in his chair, and he's just kind of like, I have a proposition for you. Or like I have this bet to make with you. I was like, what's the bet he's like, if my football team wins, you have to give me a lap dance. I was like, a very insecure individual. And I didn't have the confidence or the assertiveness that I have now. So I did like the shy little Haha, like that's cute. If your team wins, you have to come up with something, you know to do for me and I was like, I'll get back to you. But like in that in the office, like he got up and he walked from his chair and he like just came over to me and he was like, touching me like groping me through my cami's. And I was just like, how do I get out of here? Like I have never been good at like the fight. I've always frozen in situations like that. I wish I could fight back or just run but my body doesn't do it. And I remember telling my fellow marine about it. I was like, “Yeah, Hodges just like completely groped me in his office and, you know, made a bet with me that I have to give them a lap dance.” And my friend like laughed in my face about it. Just kind of walked away from me. And it brought me back to a time when I was 16 when I was raped by a friend. And I had told our mutual friend about it. And my mutual friend looked at me and was just like, you can't tell anyone what happened because he doesn't deserve to go to jail. And having my friend laugh at me, after telling him about what the corporal did just built on this foundation that I'm not allowed to voice, what happened to me, I'm not allowed to talk about my struggles. Or, I don't know. And then fast forward to Okinawa in 2011. Later that year, I think I finally made it to PFC. So it was a very slow promotion. There was a sergeant out there that pulled the kind of like the same predatory style that my recruiter had done, I would come into the office and he would like leave little monster energy drinks on my desk. Or he would write cute little notes in my green monster, which is our notebook in the military. Or he would like send me emails, or we worked on the system 32-70 system in the dispersing office, which is where you can pull up all the profiles to pay people. And you can send anonymous messages that aren't traced aren't reported. So he would send me messages on there. And I remember there's two incidences that really freaked me out. There's one where I was standing in the barracks hallway, I was standing with my back, I guess, towards my door, he was standing in the middle of between me and then like my group of friends, and he said something weird. He was like, I can control people's minds. And I was just like, this is a very uncomfortable conversation. He was like I can control the men that are standing on the other side, and they won't cross past me to get to you. And I was like, okay, this is very weird. And in the following days, he would corner me in my barracks room, like, Come into my barracks room ends, it's like for me up against the wall, and like, kiss me and grope me and stuff like that. And I finally had enough of it. So I told my roommate, who then, we told our sergeant, I guess, and brought it up to the chain of command. And I, our Gunny, came up to me one day, and was like, so what do you want to do about this? And I was like, “Well, I don’t know. What are my options?”  He's like, “Well, I don't really know. I can move you out of your barracks room that you're now and I can put you on the first floor.” And I asked if my roommate could come with me? And he said, No, I was like, Well, I don't want to be on first floor in a barracks room by myself. Like, that doesn't seem secure. And then I asked him the question, I was, like, "Am I going to get in trouble for what happened?” And he was just like, “I don't know.” So it made me not want to pursue anything anymore. Like, just leave it at that. And after that conversation with him, I just completely spiraled as a person. My foundation, myself was completely diminished. And I just became this person that I just didn't really like. And with my history of like, past sexual abuse, and stuff like that, and then being taken advantage of all the way up until this point. I dissociated a lot From what I was like feeling.  I wanted to feel happiness and something positive, but I was just feeling like a lot of pain. And I just became this person I didn't like, and my mindset became, I didn't own my body. That like my body was whoever wanted it. And it just led me down this path of just like being with people I didn't want to be with, but it was better to offer myself or feel like I was offering myself rather than them taking it from me. And my chain of command just didn't understand why I was just so out of control that I wasn't even at my office a year. They just removed me, they kicked me out, they put me on a completely different base in a completely different office. And they're just like, you can stay there like we don't want to deal with you anymore. And I stayed in that other office of the Security Management Office for like a year and I absolutely loved it. I felt at ease. I felt comfortable there because it was just a corporal and another Lance Corporal and myself and a Gunny. And they took care of me there. And then my office fought to have me back and it was just a nightmare. And then I got to Camp Lejeune June in 2013. And I was just a very disgruntled individual. I was belligerent. I didn't care to follow orders, I didn't care to listen my chain of command. I did whatever I wanted, and they still didn't know how to control me or like, why was the way it was. Because no one ever sat down and asked me or like, had the conversation. And then I think like two months before I was getting out, I finally went to mental health. And just like talked about everything,
 
Marissa: Thank you very much for your honesty, and you're so strong to be able to talk about this. And, I'm looking at you and you have such a straight confident face. And I'm like, in awe of you honestly. You have dealt with so much. And from every step of the way. And I was I was taking notes as fast as I could. It was like so interested in what happened next? I mean, God, could it get worse? And then it did. And so I have a lot of follow up questions, feel free to tell me to shut up, I want to go back to the recruiter. Because I mean, that's horrendous. And actually, I've heard that way, too many times. And the guy who harassed me, after he was in a HHC, in the Army, and then they moved him. After two more reports after me, I was his seventh report. They had two more reports after me. They moved him to recruiting. And I'm like, that is hands down the dumbest move they could possibly do. I mean of all things, why would you put this person who is obviously a predator… I mean, he's got the pattern. He's got the actions, why would you put him in charge of people? So I would love if you would feel comfortable expanding on why you thought that? Why would have ruined your career before it started to have made a report about the sergeant?
 
Melissa: Like I knew what we were doing and how we were interacting was wrong. And I knew it was wrong because either before or after we had happened, he no longer was my recruiter. There were three of them in the office. There was File Martin, and Arnold and I was under File, when I first got recruited. And I was talking to him. And then it was either immediately before immediately after, he didn't want me as his recruit anymore, or his poolee. So he switched me off to someone else. And looking back now, like that was kind of sketchy. Blake was very mad when I talked to him about it. That's how I also knew something was wrong. And that, like, that things that were happening, were not right. And I didn't have anyone within that office to talk to about it. I don't know if it was a first sergeant or Master Sergeant that like ran that office. But like, there was no one to turn to. Yeah, just that feeling deep down knowing that, like things were wrong, I think is how I knew that it was going to be career ending.
 
Marissa: I think also, because they have so much control over your career. And the help you get and the contract you get. Like there's just like you said, it's an abuse of power, they have everything to hold over you. Right? And it's, it's a disadvantage to survivors, to not have access to resources, if something were to happen.
 
Melissa: I always make the twisted comment or the twisted humor comment because I have to laugh at that experience now that like, I didn't get anything out of that experience. Like I could have at least gotten a PFC, you know, meritorious PFC out of that when I went to boot camp. Like I got literally nothing out of it, but like a traumatizing experience.
 
Marissa: Was there ever any harassment training?
 
Melissa: Yeah, In Okinawa, and Lejeune, when you're when your stationed in your office, or wherever your unit. You do, you go through like sexual harassment training, you go through suicide training you you have all these annual trainings that you literally show up, don't pay attention too, sign a roster, and then you go back to whatever you're doing. Like no one pays attention to it. No one knows that they're mandatory reporters really. My fellow marine that I told about the sexual harassment laughed in my face, and then went on about his life. He should have done something. I feel like I should have done something more in that situation. And I felt like I was failed in that moment. The Gunny that came up to me and asked me what I wanted to do in Okinawa. That shouldn't have been put on me. He should have known the correct steps to take because he was the one teaching sexual harassment and all these trainings. It boggles me.
 
Marissa: Yeah, that's disgusting. The person who's supposed to be there to train you. I don't know if he didn't have any idea. Or if he just didn't want to deal with it. I feel like the consensus is generally they just don't want to do the paperwork. Because to them, it's just another set of paperwork that they have to do.
 
Melissa: Yeah. And I was not well-liked within that Office to begin with. It comes down to I'm not a very good runner. And in the military, at least the Marine Corps, you have to run, like, everywhere, anywhere. So my PT skills automatically made me a shitty marine in their eyes. And I think from there, they just didn't want to help me anymore.
 
Marissa: Were there any other women in your unit or on the bases with you?
 
Melissa: Yeah, there was  a bunch of women in my office. I don't know if any of them experienced anything. In Okinawa, I don't know if anyone did, but I know in Camp Lejeune, I was sitting with one of my fellow Lance Corporals, and she gets a text message. And it says something like scandalous, like, “Hey sexy, how are you doing,” or whatever. And we didn't know the number. So we went on to Google and Googled the number. And I found out it was literally the Staff Sergeant that was sitting behind her that was like texting her anonymously. And when I found out who it was, I went over to my other Staff Sergeant. I was like, “Hey, we have an issue.”  And the Sergeant that was texting her got up and ran away. You know you're doing something wrong and creepy, like you've got caught, now face it.
 
Marissa: The problem is there's no accountability. So after the Gunny came to you and basically said the balls in your court, what do you want to do? I don't know your options, you're kind of gonna have to do the research yourself. Was there ever an investigation? Or did anyone ever, like touch back and at least check in to see if you were okay?
 
Melissa: No. I remember sitting in the office and they, all sergeants were like, huddled together doing something and they were all laughing with each other. And I felt disregarded and disrespected in that moment. And I remember talking to my roommate being like, how can they look at him and laugh with him when they know what he's doing? And I guess that comment, got back to my Sergeant that I had initially reported to and she was like, well, he's my fellow NCO. Like, I'm not going to shun him. And it's like, you don't have to shun him. But don't act like you guys are best friends. I don't know. Have to have some more respect for the person that just was completely violated in her own barracks.
 
Marissa: Right. I was talking to somebody, I've been working with a friend to talk to wrestlers that have been speaking out on the speak out movement. And one of the things that one of our co hosts said was, Why are people still booking these people? Why are people still like pretending like this didn't happen. And they keep getting responses from Booker's and managers and people saying, “Well, what do you want me to do not book them?” Yeah, that is exactly what we want you to do. Why are we rewarding people for bad behavior? You are abusing and violating people and abusing power to control and manipulate people. You don't deserve to be surrounded by your peers laughing. Like you deserve to be behind bars.
 
Melissa: I completely agree. Yeah, it just makes you feel so invisible.
 
Marissa: So then what did you do? You said that you went and spoke to the mental health area of the Marines. What helped you heal from all of this?
 
Melissa: Oh, it took a very long time. I was so angry and disgruntled when I got out that like, whoever slighted me in like the simplest ways, I lashed out, left and right. I just actually started going to therapy about three months ago. It also helps that I'm becoming a, like, I'm in graduate school to become a mental health counselor. So I'm understanding people's behaviors now. And I'm understanding like my healing process.
 
Marissa: That's incredible. Thank you for doing that. And for taking something that was so horrible for you, and turning it into a positive. You have the power and capacity to understand and help so many people, and empathize with them, which is a very new concept for survivors.
 
Melissa: Yeah, I can, it's gonna be hard to empathize with the, you know, the people that commit the crime. But it's going to be, you know, also hard to empathize with people that are victims, because it's going to put me back and mentally into a place that I'm still trying to heal from. But I think I'm ready to like, go there again.
 
Marissa: Do you have a plan in case something triggers you? Or do you have any ideas of how to work through those triggers?
 
Melissa: Not yet, but I absolutely love my therapist, and he's, I don't know how to explain it. He's giving me the freedom to like, you know, call him anytime or text him and be like, Hey, I'm having like a day, and he'll be there. I think that's right now my only resource in my only tool in my in my bag.
 
Marissa: Well, that's incredible to have somebody like that. What advice would you give to other survivors of  MST, military sexual trauma that are going through it now?
 
Melissa: Man, that's a hard one. Because you want to say, push through and take the chance of like, you want your voice out there. I'm not going to say never, I'm not saying stay silent and by any means. But you just have to find that person that like you can completely trust to help you through this journey. And don't doubt yourself. Because doubting yourself makes you isolated and lonely and then makes everyone else the enemy.
 
Marissa: There's a great quote from Star Wars and I swear I'm not a nerd. And I don’t remember it exactly. But it's like the bad people when we feel the most alone. When you doubt yourself, and you're unconsciously isolating yourself from people, you're doing yourself a disservice, and your community. And so you're not alone. You're never alone.
 
Melissa: Yeah, yeah. It's hard to want to trust anyone in the military when they're the ones you know, hurting you. It's literally a domestic violence relationship you have with the military when you're in those situations. You love it, you hate it, you get abused by it, you forget you were abused. And then just starts all over again.
 
Marissa: Wow, that's really painful. Thank you so much for for everything that you shared. I mean, your your insights incredible. Your story is heart wrenching. And I'm so sorry that you dealt with that. But know that you have me as a resource. You have this community as a resource. You're most certainly not alone. We have your back and you are so supportive and thank you for everything that you're now doing for survivors to help them I think that's amazing.
 
Melissa: Thank you.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, domestic violence military, army domestic violence, military spouse abuse, domestic abuse in the military, military and domestic abuse, military and domestic violence, veterans and domestic violence, domestic violence in military families, veteran domestic violence, MST military, MST movement, military sexual trauma movement, MST survivor, abuse of power, military abuse of power, UCMJ abuse of power, marines, marine corps, abuse in the marines, abuse and marines, abuse and marine corps, military sexual trauma marines,

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Healing From Pain: with Dr. Heidi Cooke

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today I have this amazing friend of mine, Heidi Cooke to come on and talk about chronic pain, and overall wellness and how to help survivors of abuse manage their chronic pain. So, Heidi attended Boise State University and received a Bachelors of Science in athletic training, while working for Boise State athletics — two seasons with their football, and one season with men's basketball and various other sports. Including track and field women's gymnastics, and women's swimming dive. So, she's like pretty knowledgeable about bodies. She graduated with the intention of going to physical therapy school and working in collegiate athletics. While in physical therapy school, she had her own powerful experience with wellness that shifted her focus to where she is today. She's a Doctor of Physical Therapy and a business owner working with individuals to improve their overall wellness with evidence-based tools and skills. No fad diets, no herbs and supplements to reduce pain. Real, science-backed tools to reduce chronic illness risk. Welcome on Heidi. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to talk to you.
 
Heidi: I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me,
 
Marissa: Of course. So, I've never had anyone like this on my podcast before. So, this is all brand-new information to me. So, I would love to hear what you do for people who have chronic pain.
 
Heidi: Yeah. So generally, I work with a very wide array of clients. From young, old, and everybody's kind of dealing with their own experiences. So, I don't really work with one specific patient or client population. Throughout my time in the PT world, I just kind of got more and more into this realm of overall wellness, just because I saw a huge need there. Like, only 25 to 26% of people that need physical therapy services, are getting in the doors of physical therapy clinics. And so, there's this huge population of people that were missing. And while I was doing all my clinical rotations in school, I was just like, how do we find these people? How do we grasp onto these people? And how do we get this information out there to all these people that aren't walking into our doors? And so that's what I do Now. I capture and find these people that need this information and need these tools and need these skills, but may not be walking into the doors of a physical therapy clinic. In its physical sense. And so now I work with people on like lifestyle modifications, — through exercise, diet, mindfulness, rest. All of those kinds of different components, to address the entire puzzle of wellness. And for a lot of my clients, chronic pain is just one piece of their overall puzzle.
 
Marissa: That's so interesting. So, I'm a big believer that emotional ailments manifest in physical symptoms, is that something that you find?
 
Heidi: Totally, totally. And that transitions well into kind of this idea that there was an old way of thinking about pain — you know, it was what we were told, growing up. It's like that narrative that we have running through our head of, I roll my ankle, and my ankle hurts, and I have pain. Or I step on a nail and, Ouch, my foot hurts. There's an input-output. That some sort of input causes pain. And that's the old way of thinking. And luckily, we're kind of getting out of that when it comes to mainstream thinking of pain. When we kind of go through the process, right, there's the old way of thinking or the best that we had with the knowledge that we had, right, which is that old way of thinking. And then it gets, you know, kind of debunked, or we learn more like through research and with science, and then that community of people understands it. And then it becomes more further adopted within that community. So other physical therapists, other doctors, other health care providers start adopting that way of thinking. And then finally, it gets into the mainstream narrative. And so, we're just kind of hitting like the tip of the iceberg there with the mainstream narrative of what pain is, and kind of the old way of thinking and this new way of thinking. And you kind of hit it right there, this new way of thinking. — And it has been scientifically proven, that pain isn't just from one specific input, and it can manifest in a physical sense from any sort of emotional trauma, physical trauma, mental trauma, anything like that, and it can manifest into physical symptoms. But it also can stick around, right. It's not one of those things where we have some sort of trauma and then we have some sort of output, right? Our bodies are complex, we have all of these different shared pathways. And we can't look at it as this happened and we're going to expect this sort of output, right. That's why one person could experience the same emotional trauma that their neighbor experienced. But they could have totally different experiences after the fact.
 
Marissa: That's so interesting that you say that. So, one thing that I've learned just in this work is that a lot of people who have been diagnosed with fibromyalgia have had sexual abuse in their past. So, I'd love if you just talk about maybe how that happens a little bit.
 
Heidi: With fibromyalgia specifically, right, that's a diagnosis that has been given. And for a lot of people like that helps with their experience, it helps them feel validated, it helps them to feel heard in what they're feeling, how they're feeling, and what they're experiencing, which is really powerful. But at the same time, slapping a diagnosis on something doesn't always we're not addressing anything by putting a label on it. And so, for me, looking at fibromyalgia, and that diagnosis, specifically, for me is just another way of looking at chronic pain. So chronic pain can take many forms and this Fibromyalgia diagnosis has kind of been labelled under this little micro-category, under chronic pain. When really should be looked at and addressed as just another form of chronic pain. And when you say you know that an individual had some sort of sexual abuse or sexual trauma in their past, and that manifests into a physical symptom that goes for any sort of chronic pain, right? Not Fibromyalgia specifically, I think that's where we get too far down a specific rabbit hole, when really the science around chronic pain and what is manifesting physically is the same in any of these cases. We have some sort of trauma, whether it be physical, whether it be emotional, sexual abuse, anything like that. And that affects our nervous system. For somebody who isn't experiencing chronic pain or didn't have a specific trauma in their past or whatever, we have this resting threshold that sits down here. And then there's a pain threshold that sits is somewhere above it. So for you to reach that pain threshold, there has to be X amount of input to reach that pain threshold. So, for me, I'm not experiencing chronic pain right now. So, for me to experience some sort of physical pain in my body, the input has to be above a certain level for me to have some sort of pain response in my body. For somebody that has had physical abuse, narcissism, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, any of those sorts of things, right, it manifests in our body as a neurological response. So now for those people, our resting threshold is sitting much closer to that pain threshold. So little things like movement, and this rings true for, you know, individuals who have fibromyalgia, any sort of small movements, fine movements, going for a walk, any sort of thing that can manifest in physical pain, now that input is so much smaller to reach that pain threshold. So now, for them going for a walk or doing small tasks, you know, that is as little of an input as you need to have that pain response. And so that kind of manifests into this stress cycle of, I don't want to move my body. I don't want to do these things. We get into this fear avoidance cycle of not wanting to move, not wanting to participate in all of these things. And all that does is keep our resting threshold right next to our pain threshold, to where it's a perpetuating cycle, if that makes sense.
 
Marissa: It does. Wow, that actually makes a lot of sense. And I have another question. I'm not entirely sure if this is in your ballpark, do you think somebody's mindset and mentality has an influence on where they're resting threshold and where their pain threshold are?
 
Heidi: Yes, and no, I mean, it's easy. So that's like one of those things that has kind of been, I know, it's easy for coaches or health professionals or whatever, to look at somebody and say, you just need to fix your mindset. It's easy to get really preachy with mindset. And while, part of that is true, if we're stuck in this downward spiral of this is my life and these are my circumstances, and I'm not going to be able to move and I can't move without pain. And I can't do this. And I can't do that. Absolutely. But it's not as easy as telling somebody, hey, you need to fix your mindset so that we can get your chronic pain under control, right? It's not that easy. It's so much more complex than that. And it really goes into more of a realm of reducing those fear-avoidance behaviors and really just understanding pain. Understanding why you're feeling the way you're feeling is so empowering. And that can kind of lead you down the path of fixing that, “Mindset.” Because, you know, one of my favorite quotes is, “You don't know, what you don't know.” And so, if you've been going on throughout your entire life thinking that “I'm experiencing this pain, because there's tissue damage happening,” that's not true, right? Pain doesn't equal tissue damage. Like I said, it can be something as small as going for a walk that's making you reach that pain threshold and making you experience pain. And if you didn't know that before, and if they didn't know that before, then how are they expected to know that, right? You don't know what you don't know. And so, empowering yourself with knowledge, empowering yourself with the tools and skills is the first step. And then once you have those tools and skills, you can start to kind of approach those movements or those things that are causing pain, and desensitizing them, and it goes through like a graded exposure. If I experienced a ton of pain from going for a walk or moving in general, and I'm stuck in bed or stuck on the couch all day, I'm not going to sit here and say fix your mindset, you need to go run a 5K. That's not going to help anybody And so we really need to look at it in a sense of — okay, we understand why we're experiencing this type of pain. Your body is safe. You're not experiencing tissue damage from getting up and going for a walk your body strong, your body isn't fragile. But that doesn't mean that the pain you're experiencing isn't real. The pain you're experiencing is real, the feeling you're having a super real. But we just need to retrain and desensitize your body into understanding that this activity is safe to perform. And we don't want to have this fight or flight response from going for a walk, which is something that we should all be able to do pain free, right? And so maybe, you know, approaching it of, Okay, we're going to walk from the bed to the couch, and you're going to, you know, keep telling yourself, I'm safe, I'm strong, and my tissues aren't being harmed in this activity. And then maybe tomorrow, we go downstairs. And maybe the next week, we go out and get the mail. And then maybe the next week after that we go for a short walk. And it's a process of desensitizing our nervous system and bringing down that resting threshold.
 
Marissa: That's awesome. So outside of what you just said, do you have any tips and tricks that you use for your clients that you could maybe impart on us?
 
Heidi: Yeah, absolutely. So, one would be really understanding your personal experience. So, you didn't get to where you are today, You didn't experience any physical or emotional trauma by yourself, right? That was due to the circumstances and the people that were around you at that time. So, we put all this pressure on ourselves to fix it ourselves, or to address it ourselves. But you didn't get there by yourself. So why are you expected to go through the healing process by yourself. So, seeking out professional help to address that emotional trauma that you experienced, is key. You aren't expected to know everything and be able to navigate this world on your own. So seeking help, and really putting in the work to address those feelings that we may be kind of burying deep inside that might be manifesting as physical pain. So, doing that work and seeking the professional help to help you put that work in. The second one is moving your body. Oh my gosh. It's one of those things that seems counterintuitive, right? When I move, I have pain. But like I said before movement really breaks that stress pain cycle that I was talking about previously. And movement and desensitizing the body slowly, like I said, not all at once. There's such things as people will talk about, “Flares,” right that they're having and, I go for a walk and I get this flare. Well, then maybe we back down the walk. Your nervous system isn't going to learn something right off the bat. It takes time and it takes, like I said, graded exposure, and you can seek professional help. Physical Therapists can help with chronic pain. There are physical therapists that specialize in working with people with chronic pain, and will help you develop a plan. A graded exposure plan to help you get moving again. And break that stress pain cycle and lower your resting threshold. And then the last thing, remember that you're not alone. Seek a community of people, and really dive into that community. Dive into it in a way that is positive for you, and helpful for you. It's not helpful when you're diving into a community, and everybody is kind of perpetuating everybody's symptoms instead of being encouraging and helpful. And so, seeking out an encouraging and helpful community of people that are experiencing what you're experiencing, just really helps you kind of go through this process, and realize that you're not alone in this at all.
 
Marissa: Thank you so much for that. I can't stress enough how grateful I am that you encourage people to find a community for them, because I think everybody, especially right now, during COVID, feel so isolated from other people. And we all just feel so alone in our lives, right? Like, I'm going to stress or this anxiety because I'm stuck in my house and can't go to the grocery store, because I'm terrified for my life. And they get stuck, like you said, in a cycle. And not having a community that's safe and empowering, it really is debilitating. And I think that goes twice for people that are experiencing chronic pain or abuse, because we already feel so isolated from people physically or emotionally. So, thank you for that. How can people get in touch with you if they would like to work with you?
 
Heidi: Yeah, so easiest way, if you want to just find me is on Instagram: @Pro.Motion.Wellness and if you want to work with me, personally, shoot me an email: ProMotionWellness@gmail.com. And then I also have a website where you can find all of the plans and packages and pricing and all that stuff to work one on one. I also do group and buddy coaching, which helps a lot of people again, find that community find that accountability partner. And it really just helps some people feel a little bit more comfortable to have a familiar face there. And a lot of times, you know, our friends or our family members are all going through the same things we are, and asking those questions and stuff can kind of help break the ice in a group setting. And you can find that on my website at Pro-Motion-Wellness.com  And I'll have all of those links in the description if you're interested.
 
Marissa: Thank you so much for being here. Heidi. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited about all this information you gave us. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
 
Heidi: Of course. And one last little titbit This was a like super Reader's Digest version of pain. And we really just skimmed the surface of it. Like I'd mentioned in the beginning. It's super complex. And we're learning more and more about chronic pain every single day. And so, if you want to dive a little bit deeper and get into more of the nitty gritty and learn more, I have two episodes on my podcast that dives specifically into pain. I have a colleague of mine, Dr. Bill Walters, who comes on and we discuss chronic pain and kind of bust some myths around chronic pain. And it's a two-episode series. So, two hours total. So, if you go to the ProMotion U Podcast on iTunes or Spotify, it's Episode 18 and 19.
 
Marissa: Thank you so much for being here Heidi. Oh my gosh, we are so grateful for all of your information. And I hope that my listeners are encouraged if you are experiencing chronic pain to reach out to Heidi because not only is she knowledgeable but she is fun and awesome too.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent,
Get in touch with Heidi:
Insta: @Pro.motion.wellnessEmail: ProMotionWellness@gmail.comWebsite: pro-motion-wellness.comPro Motion U Podcast, Episode 18: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/18-top-10-pain-myths-with-dr-bill-walters-pt-1/id1482656464?i=1000465163584
 
 

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Toxic Leadership Part 2: The Brandon Act: with Patrick and Teri Caserta

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
 
Trigger Warning... Suicide
.
.
.
Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: On Monday, we heard the horrific story from Teri and Patrick Caserta about the awful treatment their son Brandon Caserta went through while in the Navy. He was harassed, hazed, abused, and forced to work in a toxic environment with a known abuser. He was surrounded by toxic leadership and felt trapped, like his only way out was suicide. I can't begin to imagine what his parents are going through. Let's tune back into the conversation and see what the next steps are in Teri and Patrick's plan to bring justice for Brandon.
I want to hear about The Brandon Act. Tell me what it is, what it's doing, and how you're going about getting it into law.
 
Patrick Caserta: Well, The Brandon Act, it was developed to be a safe word for military, so they can utilize it, and have some privacy to their issues. So, an example would be. Somebody on a Tuesday morning went to work, and they were feeling depressed, they could just tell the lowest supervisor, they could tell them, “I have a Brandon Act issue. I invoke the Brandon Act,” and that person has to say okay. And the person that invokes The Brandon Act gets to go, I'm just going to say for simplicity, to medical. They go to medical, triage, or in this case, obviously, the mental health. They go to mental health, they'll see a counselor or a psychologist. And a plan will be put into motion, whatever their problem is. It could be marriage problem, relationship problem, could be bullying, hazing. Could be sexual harassment, MST, Military Sexual Trauma, it could be anything. And they'll get triaged to where they need to go, and get the help. It's to ensure that no one feels left alone, left out, and that they have nobody to talk to. Because I know the public believes that the military is like the fire department. It is not like the fire department. The camaraderie and looking out for each other and all that does not exist. Everybody's out for themselves, sort of, or don't have time. With The Brandon Act, they can't say, “We’ll go later.” “Could you go tomorrow?” “Could you go next week?” “We're busy.” “We have too much work." No. They get to go right then and there. They're gone. Just like that. Command cannot retaliate. They can't do anything. They go get the help they need. They might need three or four sessions with counselor or psychologist, and they might actually get healed, and they'll be fine. And while they're having somebody to talk to, they are introduced to the world of counseling and mental health. And understand that it's not what everybody tries to paint it to be. Like a big bad dragon, that’s going to ruin your career. Or if you end up on medication or something,  your career is over. It teaches them that there’s actually a useful tool to be able to talk to someone. And it's teaching them that they can go do this, and get the help that they need when they need it. And it also prevents even the command. If somebody sat down from the command and talked to them for two hours, they're really not qualified to talk to them for a couple hours about their problem, if you really think about it. Just because they’re a supervisor doesn't mean they know what they're talking about. And then the question is, do they really care? Are they really going to put effort? Where if they go to outside source on the base, they're going to get proper help, and those people are going to care and want to help them, and listen to their problems no matter what it is. And it can remain confidential. When you're a veteran through the VA, the Vet Center gives you this… the VA will pay for any help you need, counseling, whatever you need. It's there for the rest of your life. So, it teaches them to go get help when you need it. Whether you're in or out. Veteran or not, it doesn't matter. You can get that help. And not to be afraid because 25 veterans a day are dying by suicide, also. Getting them to the door — Proactive system like the Brandon Act. That's what we need. Because he said the success rate is like 99.9% if you get them in the door. We need to get them to the door. If you're sexually assaulted, you need to go to the police. You don't have to go to your command. You do not have to go to your command. But if you believe that, then The Brandon Act is going to be a great tool for you because that enables you, if you're sexually assaulted or harassed, you go to medical and again you triage where you need to go. The police will get involved. It'll be documented and now taken out of the commands hands. Which means they can't cover it up. They can't retaliate against you, and chances are, that you will get justice.
 
Marissa: I think that's an awesome idea and I hope that included in it is some form of confidentiality. Built in. Just like when you report a sexual assault in the military, if you don't go to a SARC or victim advocate, it automatically gets escalated. And I would hate for that to be a pitfall of The Brandon Act. But that's a great idea and that sounds like a phenomenal tool for people to use. So, thank you guys for creating that. How can we support you to make sure that, that is a utilized tool?
 
Caserta: Getting it passed. Senator McSally is leading the way right now. She introduced it as a stand-alone bill, and she's trying to get it attached to the Senate's version of the NDAA. It is attached to the house version, and it has already passed. But now they go to committee and they figure out the best of both of their NDAA’s and figure out the best one, and that's the one that they use for the military. It's hoped that the Brandon Act will stay with it. She's trying to get added to the Senate version that way and betters its chances. But she is introducing it as a stand-alone also, which means awareness of it. We're calling Senators right now and making them aware of it. That way when it comes up and they're voting on it, they know what they're voting on. And can make a good decision on if they support it or not. Now the uniqueness of the Brandon Act… there are other Acts out there for sexual harassment. There's several, actually. The Brandon Act does not conflict with any of them. So, the Brandon Act can pass along with them. Well, obviously, you know about the Guillen one, IAmVanessaGuillen, with the independent investigation and things like that. That's great. We support it. We think it's fantastic. But the Brandon Act complements it. Well, it's just another tool. These are tools that they can use. All of them need to pass. But The Brandon Act in particular. Make the senators aware. That's what's going to get it passed. Awareness.
 
Teri Caserta: And your listeners, you and your listeners if they want to, they can call their congressmen and women and senators to let them know that they are interested, and want the Brandon Act passed. I believe the more people that contact their congressional representatives, the better chances of them knowing about it. And they want this passed.
 
Patrick Caserta: We've been contacted recently several times already asking if it's in effect. There's people in need, and we've helped people. We help them, you know, it's not passed. We do help them, and give them information on how to get help. But The Brandon Act definitely would make things easier for them. And I think they’d feel more comfortable with doing it. And that's why they're asking us if it's passed yet. Now we have two quests going on. We have the save lives quest. Brandon's legacy is to save lives. We've committed ourselves the rest of our lives to doing that for service members, or anyone, but in particular service members and veterans. The other path is justice for Brandon. We need all the help we can get because it is not looking the way it should. Although there are some things that are changing, and some attention that we're getting that is going to cause some things to happen, we believe. But again, it's hopeful thinking, and we have the evidence and the facts, we just need the military to want to see the evidence and facts and use it against the people. But until then, we're stuck on that justice path. But the other path is doing very well. And what's important is it's going to save lives. And the sooner it gets passed, the sooner we start saving lives. We're going to monitor the numbers, the suicide numbers, the sexual harassment, MST. We're going to monitor and see if it does get passed. And if the numbers go down. If they go up, obviously, there's more work that needs to be done. We need to amend it or many other things to get some other stuff put in place to bring these numbers down.
 
Marissa: Here's what I want. First and foremost, absolute call to action to all of my listeners to call your senators and representatives and tell them that you want The Brandon Act passed, because there's literally no reason for it not to. One suicide one veteran suicide per year is one too many. And the fact that the numbers are inflating now, so they have to reduce the qualifications. And I can get into that in a different episode, but it's disgusting. So, the second thing I want to say is that Teri and Patrick, I'm going to put you guys in touch with my friend Dennis Addesso, who is the president of a non-profit out of New Jersey, called Ma Deuce Deuce. And they work to help survivors of attempted military suicide or families of veteran suicide. And I think that this is something that they'd be really interested in and they have a ton of connections. Thank you, guys, so much for being here today. You are inspirational social justice fighters. I'm just so inspired by you guys. And I hate your son's story. I'm so sorry about it. But you guys truly are creating a legacy and you will get justice. The last question I have is, what advice would you guys give to parents of military to help them make a safe situation for their children who are serving,
 
Patrick Caserta: One thing you need to do is listen to your children, like you always do. But the point is, you need to keep your guard up when they're in the military. I mean, like 100 times more than you ever did before. You think they're in good hands. Like I said, we trusted Brandon’s command. The public trusts the military was in good hands. You can't think that way. We've had a lot of parents; we've saved a lot of lives already. They called us concerned about their children. And some of them were suicidal. Some of them were on the verge of it. Some parents were just worried they were suicidal. In the over worry about that. And to get them help, and talk to them, and make them open up to you. And find out, we had a phenomenal relationship with our son. We were the three musketeers. He was an only child, and we did everything together. He put up with 1000 times worse than I could ever tell you. That's what we didn't know. Had we known that things would have turned out differently. So, you need to keep your guard up. Keep in touch, even if you text every day with your children. Obviously, if they're in the war zone or something, you might not be able to do that. But as much as you can talk to them. Don't ever think that they're old enough to be on their own. Brandon don’t get me wrong. He was a young man, and he was more than capable of being on his own, and he was on his own. But he lost his true infrastructure of friends. But more importantly, he was putting an environment of people that he felt didn’t like him. And that's not a good feeling. And we all know that. But it reminds me of high school. And the poor kid was put in that environment. And ultimately, even the people that did like him turned on him. So, he had people to talk to. He had some good friends here. He had us. He had his uncles, aunts, his grandmother. There were a lot of people Brandon could have talked to if he needed to. Why he chose not to, I don't know. I think he thought he had it over-control. And I think they just broke him at the last possible second. Be open-minded where your children. Listen to them. Talk to them. Reassure them. And if you're overdoing it, they tell you over doing it, just let it go in one ear and out the other. Be like the teenagers. In one ear out the other. Keep doing it. Don't stop until they get through the main crowd in the military. You still do it to the end. I just caution you, if you're on a quest for justice, or something like that, there's not much out there for you. We'll guide you and help you in any way we can. We have resources and we belong to groups that can help you the best that they can. There's not a lot out there and that needs to change too. But unfortunately, that's going to take time and it's not going to bring back our kids. So, preventing it like The Brandon Act can, and other things can, and you can. Be proactive. That's the best thing you could do, because your doorbell could be next. I'm sorry, I hate to break the news to you. But right now, somebody's doorbell rang several times. Several doorbells rang while we were doing this, being told their son or daughter or loved one is dead.
 
Marissa: Thank you so much for all that I think that there was a lot of very helpful insight. Is there anything else that you want to share?
 
Teri Caserta: The only reason AE1 Jared Brose left the command is because he was overheard making derogatory statements about Brandon and his death two days after Brandon died. And the command opted not to take him to captain's mast, because that would keep him in the command longer. So, they just gave him, I'll say a bad evaluation, and sent him to the wing with the admiral, which would have been Commodore, Alan M. Worthy – Commander Atlantic Helicopter Combat Wing. But that is the only reason he was taken off of HSC 28. Otherwise, he'd still be there. And we also found out that he's doing the exact same thing, because now he's in another command and bragging about how he drove one of his sailors to suicide.
Patrick Caserta: AE1 Jared Brose got fired from that deployment, and that guy was having a hard time when AE1 Jared Brose was there. AE1 Jared Brose left, and this guy rise to the top. He's still in the Navy. He has a career. He's making a career out of it. He turned the corner back to the way he was before AE1 Jared Brose was over him. And had Brandon been away from AE1 Jared Brose, I mean, they knew bros was abusing Brandon and they did nothing about it.
Teri Caserta: Yeah, the only thing AE1 Jared Brose got after he was removed from that deployment was, we were told, one anger management class. That's it. And we are not the only family who's trying to fight for justice. I'm in so many groups and there are 1000s upon 1000s of families trying to get justice for their loved ones, because of either the negligence, the bullying, the hazing, the sexual harassment MST, that their loved one had endured. We are not the only family out there. We just don't want anybody else to go through what Brandon did, and we don't want any other family to go through what we have. Those people that killed our son, we would not wish this on them. That is the worst pain ever.
 
Marissa: Thank you guys so much for sharing everything you shared. And I'm so grateful that you guys are empowered to be making this change. It's huge. And you're right, I mean, nothing's going to change until the people who did this to Brandon and to probably 1000s of other service members are held accountable. I'm on board. I'm all in to do whatever I can to help. Thank you, guys, so much for dedicating your life and Brandon's legacy to keeping other service members safe. Thank you, guys, so much for being here today.
 
Casertas: Thank you, we appreciate it.
 
“The people shown below are an embarrassment and a disgrace to the Navy, our great country and to society as a whole. As parents of a truly wonderful young man, we demand those responsible be held accountable for Brandon’s death. Since there is not a statute of limitations on murder, it’s not too late to file charges.”
Commodore, Alan M. Worthy – Commander Atlantic Helicopter Combat WingCommander, Duane Whitmer – Commanding Officer (HSC-28)Commander, Trevor Prouty – Executive Officer (HSC-28)Command Master Chief, David TokarskiMaster Chief Pete LeretteChief Doug DelasanroChief Shelah HennardNC1 Remmy SpenceAE1 Jared Brose
 
 
Marissa: Everybody's story is a little bit different. Nobody has gone through exactly what you have. And although that can make us feel alone, know that by speaking out, you're inspiring others do the same. writing a book is what gave me my start on this journey. I decided that even though I didn't feel that my story was as awful as what others experienced. If I could help one other person process and heal from what they experienced. It was worth telling. And it did. I received a ton of support and private messages from people who felt inspired and empowered by me speaking my truth. If you have a story that you want to share, I would love to help you start this journey. The people who have endured sexual assault and domestic violence all have the same notion. They just don't want anyone else to feel the way they did. We want to support everyone. Do yourself and our community service and consider writing your story or contributing it to my breaking through the silence series your words and your voice are powerful and your story can help others heal from their abuse. If you're interested, please send me an email to me at MarissaFayecohen.com and I would be thrilled to work with you on breaking your silence. Thank you so much.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, domestic violence military, army domestic violence, military spouse abuse, domestic abuse in the military, military and domestic abuse, military and domestic violence, veterans and domestic violence, domestic violence in military families, veteran domestic violence, MST military, MST movement, military sexual trauma movement, MST survivor, abuse of power, military abuse of power, UCMJ abuse of power, the brandon act, brandon act, brandon caserta, patrick caserta, teri caserta, hsc 28, navy, navy seals, treatment of soldiers by military, toxic leadership, toxic boss, toxic work environment, toxic workplace, abusive workplace, abusive boss, abusive work environment, toxic workplace, military toxic leadership, toxic leadership in the military, abusive leadership, navy toxic leadership, abusive toxic leadership, abusive leadership in the military,

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Toxic Leadership: The Brandon Act: with Patrick and Teri Caserta

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
 
Trigger Warning... Suicide
Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. In the nature of Military MeToo and IAmVanessaGuillen, I've been talking to a lot of MST survivor, MST survivors, service members who are survivors of MST, domestic violence or military sexual trauma. And Sexual Assault Response coordinators who have worked with the military and been retaliated against for doing their job and defending MST survivors. What we haven't talked about here is how that impacts the family of service members who are affected by MST military sexual trauma. So today, I'm super honored to bring on two of my coalition members and friends. I'm so excited. Teri and Patrick Caserta. Patrick is a 22-year retired Navy counsellor, Senior Chief, and Terry, his wife claims to just be an administrative assistant. But I think she's a thought leader and a powerhouse advocate for survivors. And they together are the authors of The Brand Act. And they're dedicated to carry out their son Brandon's legacy of saving the lives of our service members. Hey, guys, Welcome on Breaking through Our Silence. I'm so happy to have you today.
 
Teri Caserta: Well, thank you for having us today. We're excited as well.
 
Marissa: I'm sorry for the nature of the conversation. I wish it was something happier. But I'm so inspired by you guys and your bravery. And you're speaking out for what happened to your family. So, would you guys mind be telling us your story?
 
Patrick Caserta: Well, first of all, our son Brandon, he was since he was four years old, he was in swimming and he maintained swimming till the day he left for active duty. And he was in karate also since he was four. And a played many sports over the years. In modern times, We didn't know this, but sports are year-round. He was a sport year-round not just in high school, but before High School. And we coached a lot of his teams over the years. And it was mainly football, flag football, football, he played some baseball but mainly football. And we were able to save up enough money for him to go to college. His college was paid for. Meaning it was already we can afford this. And we already have money set aside for it. And we did not want him joining the military at all. The thought was I had already served, and he we wanted him to, because he had the opportunity a lot of people do not, go to college. So, one day out of nowhere, he hit us with a surprise, that he wanted to join the military and become a Navy Seal. And we were shocked. And I was against it. But I knew that this was something he really wanted to do. He had a plan, and supporting him on it was the right thing to do. And ultimately, he could join anyway on his own later. So, the point was, it was better to support his decision and be proud of what he wants to do, than to go against it. So, we supported him. We got him everything he needed. He worked, boy did that kid work out. And he was already in shape. But he we took them the swimming all the time, which was about five miles away. He'd wake up early in the morning and ride his bike and he wrote up and back and 120 degrees sometimes. And he’d come home and he'd be completely soaked in sweat. And but the bike ride was you know, good for physical fitness and as he called it, SEAL training. Ultimately went in and he was in Seal training. He made it to week three, unfortunately, he broke his leg and he actually collapsed on the beach. They throw him in the back of a pickup truck. They should have taken him to medical. They did not. Since we're in Arizona, he called us and we went out there immediately. And I could have gotten him back into seals based upon the fact that he had a broken leg. He told me word for word, "Dad, you can do that. And I know you'd get me back in. But they'll never let me make it through. They'll never let me make it through.” So, he would know more than I would because he was in the training so I backed away and honored his request. Unfortunately, when you don't make it through the seals, you're at the mercy of the Navy. And the Navy gave him three or four jobs to pick from. And he picked the best one of the bunch that was there. And they shipped them away with a broken leg to Pensacola. He went to school. He got orders to Norfolk, Virginia, HSC 28. He checked in. He went to advanced school there for a couple months. And then ultimately checked into the command permanently. And I kid you not they had him selling candy. And I'm not lying or exaggerating. Yes, candy. And yes, this is waste, fraud and abuse, it is best. So, I just want the taxpayers to know, and I am pursuing this and have been. But he decided, because of the toxic and abusive leadership in the command, and he was being abused and wanted out of there. So, he applied for an air-crewman program. He was accepted to it. He had orders leaving February 2018. But in October-November time-frame, he fell off his bike, he fell to the ground, broke his collarbone. So, he was going to rehab, and weren't sure when he was going to be found, as the military calls it, “Fit for duty.” So, the command on their own, took it upon themselves to cancel his orders, even though, like I pointed out, he went to Pensacola, Florida with a broken leg. You could ship him somewhere with a broken collarbone, especially when it would be basically healed by the middle of February anyway, when his orders were to be executed. But the command cancelled orders without his permission. And the deal was, the counsellor of the command said that once you are found fit for duty, he'll have you out here within two weeks. So, Brandon moved along. On March 28 He was found fit for duty. He went to the NC and said, “Hey, I'm found fit for duty. Here's the paperwork.” The NC said, "Okay, I got it, I'll take care of it.” And Brandon kept bugging the guy and nothing, nothing. Nothing. Brandon said, “Well, I'm supposed to be out here in two weeks.” He goes, “Oh, I never said that.” And mysteriously, he had to do all the paperwork over again. And apply again for air-crewman. Supposedly. He was in the process of doing that, this is a time consuming thing takes couple months. So, he was doing it. And all along, I want to point out that he was being abused by an LPO by the name of Jared Brose. And this Brose guy was heading on deployment for six months. And he was so abusive that they turned him in. And he got fired and kicked off deployment. And he went back to the command. And they gave him a job being in charge of ultimately, he was in charge of Brandon. He was in charge of others, but Brandon was under him. Again. And he continued to abuse Brandon in front of everybody and nobody cared. An example is, we sent a package for Christmas to him. And this guy gets the mail. And at the morning quarters, he has a package for him, walks up in the middle of the room and drops it on the floor, and says here's your package. That's the kind of person he was. He did this in front of everybody. This guy didn't care. He did whatever he wanted to, and the commander knew it. But he fit in with the command. He fit right into their toxic abuse of leadership and abuse of power. So, they favored the guy. That's why they put him back in charge. Anyway, this guy continued to abuse him, and ultimately, they made him write down on a piece of paper his name, social security number, date of birth, address, and they took it from him and didn't tell him what it was for. Half hour later they called him into a room. There were seven people in this room. And there was this Chief on a computer by the name of Chief Doug Delasanro and AE1 Jared Brose was in the room too. And so was his Chief Shelah Hennard. It was seven total. And they are on a computer looking up his driver's license, on the Arizona DMV website, looking up his driver's license, they couldn't find one. They asked if he'd moved. He said yes, because Brandon is totally honest. Added in the new address, and poof, up pops information. It's not necessarily a driver's license, either. It could have been an ID. They didn't know. Brandon took out his wallet and they grabbed it out of his hand. Took his wallet, grabbed his credit card, paid for duplicate license and in Arizona, change of address is free. You don't have to buy a duplicate license and changed his address, and had the license sent to him personally. When I say to him, I'm talking about Chief Doug Delasanro. And then basically looked at and started laughing so it looks like you do have a driver's license. And basically told him to leave. So, he did. He texted us, and called us, and we knew about it. And this AE1 Jared Brose guy was trying to press charges against Brandon because they wanted him to drive, and he didn’t have a drivers license.  Somehow, some way, I do not know how they felt they were entitled to his driver's license. I couldn't tell you how people would ever think that way but again, toxic abuse of leadership and abuse of power. They do whatever they want to do. They always have, always will. That'll never change. This Brose guy was picking on him like crazy. So, this set the stage for Brandon, being in a corner. Now I spoke to him. He was very upset. We had no idea, obviously that he wouldn't be suicidal at all. I thought for a minute we were coming out there anyway, because his command would not listen to reason. So, I was coming out there, but the plan was I was calling Monday morning. Monday morning, I called the command and I was on the phone with the senior enlisted advisor by the name of Command Master Chief, David Tokarski. And this guy is going round and round on me about this driver's license thing. And I'm like, we could argue all day, you're not entitled to the license. He just did not understand that. I mean, this guy literally without exaggerating the IQ of a hockey puck. And he wouldn't listen to me. And I argued, argued, argued, and all he kept saying is he's claustrophobic and if he goes to medical and claims to be claustrophobic, all this goes away. I'm like, No, he's not doing that. Because then he can't go air crewmen. He can't even be in the Navy. He's claustrophobic. And I said, He's not claustrophobic. He doesn't drive. What part of that don't you understand? Well, he argues with me. He said he had to go. So, he left. When he got off the phone. He said, I'll call you back right away 30 minutes later, he does call back. In that 30 minutes for a called me, apparently, he went and found Brandon, it was just screaming at him in front of everybody. And degrading him and calling him all this sand. Your daddy can call as much as he wants, he can't help you. We're going to burn you. We're going to, send you to mast, kick you out of the Navy ,and all that. Next thing I know, he calls us back. Like I said, I'm on the phone with him. He's going round and round his driver's license again, even though there's nothing else to talk about. So, I got off the phone with him. Teri was looking for plane tickets. We were coming out there. I was furious. I was going to go out there. And I told Brandon to let the command know we're going to legal. Run and see the EEOC, and that we're going to get an attorney  if necessary. And then I'm going to talk to the commanding officer and we'll take it from there. And next thing I know, we're texting with Brandon. Teri gets a text. “Just know I love you." And that was it.
We lost touch. Were trying to get a hold of them kept trying to get a hold of him. And next thing we know two uniformed people are at our door. And obviously, we knew why they were there. And we still hoped for the best, and that he was alive. And unfortunately, he wasn't. And they told us he was dead. Obviously, he died when I was on the phone with the command the second time. But of course, command will never tell us that. I mean, they follow protocol. Just ask them they're so honest. And what had happened is, he went out, I guess during Flight Ops, they let him through the flight line when the Helo was going, they should have never let him through. They're going to say their excuse is, “he was one of us.” That's fine. He's one of you. When two rotors are going nobody is allowed in and out of there. Period.  Unless it's the flight crew. And Brandon was not the flight crew. And nobody is allowed in the area. Somehow, they breached. He said something to what they call the Plane Captain — who's in charge of the ground crew, and he said I'm sorry for you about the Helo. He ran at a tail rotor to Helo. He jumped up. Missed. So, he jumped again. He succeeded. They watched. They did nothing. They didn't tackle him. They didn't try to do anything to stop him. And then, here's the great part. Afterwards. So, this happens, you know what they all do, there's about 9 to 10 of them, they all run. They don't have them. They don't do no first aid, nothing, they all run away. Now one will say human beings are human, they may do something like that. This is various ranks of people who've done this stuff 1000s of times that know better. And they've seen things. I've seen things; you respond to it. Not everybody responds the same. But how do nine people run away? And Brandon for almost the whole time he was there kept telling us everybody hates him. And we did not believe that to be a blanket statement. But in the end, we have found people that lied to him and appears they did. But we think that there's a lot of truth to that. That explains their actions. But anyway, no first aid is applied. Nothing. That poor kid sat on that tarmac in the hot sun for six hours. They left him there. He went from there to the morgue. He never went to the hospital. They never took him to hospital and this is all on film. We don't have the film. We've never seen it. And of course, the military said there was a film and then they conveniently have said there isn’t. Even though there is. And ironically, the lovely excuse to be here on every time you ask for clip that some of the cameras were broken. And it's just a standard answer by the military. I mean, they buy cameras that costs 100 times more money than ours, and they're very reliable. And yet they're always broken when something happens. It's kind of a standard answer for them. Anyway, that in a nutshell, is the story of Brandon. To that point, now, turns out he was abused a lot worse than we ever thought. This kid never did anything, anybody. He helped people. Before he went to military used to bring home homeless people, he’d help special needs people. He helped everybody. And whether you liked him or not, he helped you. If you hated him, and he knew you hated him, he still helped you. So that's part one of it. This is all factual information. There is no exaggerating anything. The commanding officer Commander, Duane Whitmer – Commanding Officer (HSC-28), and the executive officer Commander, Trevor Prouty – Executive Officer (HSC-28). Those two individuals did nothing to help the kid at all. And they knew and condoned toxic leadership. They were part of the problem.
 
Now phase two starts on the reason I point this out is, there are those out there, they're going to say, he took his own life, he had a choice. He didn't have to do what he did and all that. I know what people say. Well, Brandon felt trapped his letter he left behind, it tells you this. And it also points out that we're not at fault. Not to, we take responsibility, believe me, we do. And we will take responsibility till the day we die. However, he points out, this is the Navy's fault and the commands fault. He points that out in the letter. It also gets better. They were keeping him for personal greed and keeping him from a program that the Navy needed people for, and he was supposed to leave.
Teri Caserta: Well, because it was 180 days is when they're supposed to be able to complete it. They wanted him to complete it in two weeks.
 
Patrick Caserta: And that explains why that flight line let him in when the Helo's were going. Those people got qualified quickly too. Some of them. And obviously the commanding officer didn't properly train his crew. Anyway, moving forward, Here's Part Two. He felt trapped. He felt he had no choice. He took his own life. He sent a message to command like, look what you made me do. And he left some letters for some others. And he felt those people would help us get justice for him. Unfortunately, they all turned their back on us too. He left them 10-page letters. He left us a five-page letter. So, you tell me they put in their statements that they don't know him that well. And they don't know why he left them letter. Well, when we got Brandon's phone, we went to the text. Oh, yeah, they were really good friends. Those people lied. And they're covering up this. And that's the part two I'm going to point to. If you believe Brandon took his own life on his own, and you believe it's a choice, and you have no empathy for the story, and the abuse of power, and how they treated him on that, well follow me on this.
 
So, the Chief’s come in fresh uniform tell us our son's dead. They're here for a little bit and we're talking to them and tell them the story and they're listening. And then after a while, they broke down and started talking to us. And it was strange that they were even bringing the subject matter up. But turns out that on their way over when they were coming to tell us that Brandon was dead, they had done an internet search. And they found an article that said someone died at Norfolk, Virginia, and it was the safety mishap and that…
Teri Caserta: They were supposed to come tell us that he was alive and in the hospital. That is why they were coming to our house.
 
Patrick Caserta: Well, they pulled over and they called the command and he said, “Look, you know, this article says he's dead. You told us he's alive and in the hospital. I got to tell the parents. What's going on?" So, the command proceeded to tell them well tell the parents he's alive in the hospital. And he's like, Is he alive in hospital? They're like, No, he's dead. He's on the flight line laying there. And he's like, well, I can't tell them that he's alive in the hospital if he's dead. I can't do that. And these guys didn't work for the commanding officer. So, they said they're not going to do it. So, it all starts right there. There's where phase two begins with this lovely Helicopter Squadron 28 commanding officer. So they lied there. Then they proceed to treat us horribly. They hold a memorial service. They don't invite us. They didn't get our permission to hold one although ultimately, I realized they wouldn't need our permission. But you understand my point. The Navy is required, and I did not know this. I wish I didn't because I found out because Brandon's dead, is they  fly your immediate family out there to the memorial service. They pay for everything. And the two people dressed in uniform that came to our door, are the ones that are supposed to set that up for us, and pay for it. Of course, that was never done. And the reason that was never done is, we weren't invited. And we didn't even know there was going to be memorial service held. On that subject, there's an article out there where the command responds and says, we were invited. They lied in the article, we were not invited. That's factual. The two people come into the door, make the travel arrangements. They arranged for us to be there. If they didn't make the arrangements, then how in the world could we've been invited? And then we found emails that we got through a FOYA of them going back and forth, saying we were concerned about getting his body back and waiting for it. Well, turns out, there's truth to that. However, we could have gone out there. No family even arrived til the weekend. He died on a Monday. No one even came into picture until the weekend. We could have easily gone to the memorial service. And as far as the body goes, somehow, some way his body was delayed for two weeks. The command got involved, and somehow they got the body delayed. People die in the war and get home faster than our son did. The command interfered with the body coming home. Now why did they do this? And why not invite us to memorial service, You're wondering? Sounds kind of stupid. Well, they did not want us there because they knew I was retired Navy. They knew that we would talk and ask questions to the people in the command. And they did not want us talking to them. They delayed the body because they didn't want us coming out there. Because had we come out their Rest assured, we planed on going to the media. And they knew this and they did not want that to happen. They did not want word to get out over what they had done. Ultimately, NCIS is investigating. And they're investigating whether the medical examiner's report in the cause of death match. When they were investigating, I gave them all kinds of information. Instead of investigating it, they just asked the command nonchalantly some questions. Like we were looking for his driver's license — the one that was sent to Chief Doug Delasanro that stole his credit card, and other things. Well, NCIS knew the command was corrupt. But the command was being nice to them and coaching them on. You know, saying, “Hey, we're innocent." Saying, “You know, this guy did this on his own. We're nice people.” And so NCIS bought it. They should have turned it into a criminal investigation once they found out the command lying. There are several people they didn't even get statements from the witnessed the event. In particular, the one that was closest to Brandon at the time. When I say closest, I'm talking proximity. They never interviewed him, ever. So, NCIS does an incomplete investigation. The statements are falsified. They’re not accurate. They’re not the way they're supposed to be. So, then the command does what's called a command line of duty investigation. They completely covered up everything. I mean, everything. The statements are falsified, they lie about everything. There is no truth in this thing. Commanding officer, you know what he put out after Brandon died? He mustered the whole command and told them that if they talked to us, or the press, or anyone, or tell the truth about what happened to Brandon, it'll be considered mutiny, and will be sent to Fort Leavenworth prison. Almost one year later, when the executive officer took over by the name of Commander, Trevor Prouty – Executive Officer (HSC-28), he put out that same exact remark. Because two articles were coming out. It took us a year to get articles out and they knew about the articles. And they put that out before they came out and threatened the entire command again. Why would you threaten the entire command if you had nothing to hide, and you're innocent? So, this Commander, Trevor Prouty – Executive Officer (HSC-28) and Commander, Duane Whitmer – Commanding Officer (HSC-28) are disgraces to the military, the Navy and society. If both commanders and come forward and told the truth, and they said, “Look, this is a tragic death. However, we learned from this, we've done training, we put new safety procedures in place. We’ve raised the bars on our training program. We have made the command more aware of people's feelings, and if they witness events to report it.” They would have gotten away with this. There's nothing we could have done to them. And then of course, they would have to go after the people that are guilty: AE1 Jared Brose Chief Doug Delasanro Chief Shelah Hennard Command Master Chief, David Tokarski Master Chief Pete Lerette NC1 Remmy Spence, All those people you would have, they would have to go after them of course and discipline them. But if they did, that both of their careers would be intact. And they'd be fine. And there's nothing we could do. The Navy they would say that yes, the chain of command let him down, and people let him down, and the commanding officers recovered from it and did this this and this. And that would be the end of it. But no, they chose to cover all this up All they cared about I guess was their career.
 
Marissa: I am so sorry for everything you guys went through and everything Brandon went through. I mean, I know that I had little to no part in any of it but I am like a mix of devastated for you and heartbroken and angry. Like I'm fuming. One of the things I wanted to kind of ask as a follow up is, I know that you said you called as a concerned parent, and you never called as retired military. But wouldn't they already know that? They would already know that, Patrick that you've had military experience.
 
Patrick Caserta: I was insulted and upset and they did know. They knew long time ago, I was retired military. And I had high position. I was the Serve Pack Fleet Counselor, when I was a Counselor. And I was in recruiting for 15 years. So, I knew what I was talking about, and they wouldn't listen to me. Like I said, they killed and murdered him. However, I will point this out. They will continue to kill. They will kill again, and again, and again, unless somebody does something about it. And the only way they can put an end to that, is to stand up to them. This case these people need to go. But there's always a new batch. We need to stop it from rising. And the way to do that is to clean house and the Navy needs to put out. Because if you were to call the Navy right now and talk to somebody that's in charge high up, nobody tells you about hazing, bullying, harassing sexual harassment. They're going to tell you there's zero tolerance. If that is the case, why is our son dead? How can he be dead if there's zero tolerance for bullying, hazing, harassing, torture, intimidating? If there's zero tolerance why is Brandon Caserta dead? They can't answer that question. All we want is justice for Brandon. Brandon asked us in writing, we can show you the letter, specifically says to get justice for him. Matter of fact, it says, “Make them pay for what they put me through.” And the only way to get that is we have to demand it. And we have to get the attention of the appropriate people to do something. And unfortunately, the military never does anything until they don't have a choice. And don't have a choice means that they are so embarrassed that they're going to do something. And that's news articles, podcasts, things of that nature. I mean, Congress knows about it. And they're outraged I mean; they really are. And they want to do something. HSC 28, Both commanders are very corrupt, and hardly anybody has come forward with this. They witnessed Brandon get abused, and they did nothing. Their fellow service member is dead and they don't share. That bothers us more than anything.
 
Marissa: Brandon story gets even more complicated, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Teri and Patrick are working tirelessly to give Brandon the Justice he deserves. You can hear the passion in Patrick's voice when he speaks. They are a very inspiring duo. And they're going to make major changes to the treatment of service members. Tune in here to hear the rest of this heart wrenching interview, I promise the content gets lighter. Everybody's story is a little bit different. Nobody has gone through exactly what you have. And although that can make us feel alone, know that by speaking out, you're inspiring others do the same writing a book is what gave me my start on this journey. I decided that even though I didn't feel that my story was as awful as what others experienced. If I could help one other person process and heal from what they experienced. It was worth telling. And it did. I received a ton of support and private messages from people who felt inspired and empowered by me speaking my truth. If you have a story that you want to share, I would love to help you start this journey. The people who have endured sexual assault and domestic violence all have the same notion. They just don't want anyone else to feel the way they did. We want to support everyone. Do yourself and our community service and consider writing your story or contributing it to my breaking through the silence series. your words and your voice are powerful, and your story can help others heal from their abuse. If you're interested, please send me an email to me at MarissaFayecohen.com and I would be thrilled to work with you on breaking your silence. Thank you so much.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, domestic violence military, army domestic violence, military spouse abuse, domestic abuse in the military, military and domestic abuse, military and domestic violence, veterans and domestic violence, domestic violence in military families, veteran domestic violence, MST military, MST movement, military sexual trauma movement, MST survivor, abuse of power, military abuse of power, UCMJ abuse of power, the brandon act, brandon act, brandon caserta, patrick caserta, teri caserta, hsc 28, navy, navy seals, treatment of soldiers by military, toxic leadership, toxic boss, toxic work environment, toxic workplace, abusive workplace, abusive boss, abusive work environment, toxic workplace, military toxic leadership, toxic leadership in the military, abusive leadership, navy toxic leadership, abusive toxic leadership, abusive leadership in the military,

Healing From Emotional Abuse: MST Military Sexual Trauma Movement: with Traci Sharpe

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Recently, we've been talking to a lot of people that work with military or were military, in response to IAmVanessaGuillen and MST the problems that were happening at Fort Hood and throughout the military. So today, I wanted to bring on a coalition member of mine and a friend Traci Sharpe, she's a mom of four, a grandma of one, a champion and an advocate. She works primarily with domestic violence and sexual assault victims. She's worked for the Marine Corps since 2011, as a Content Developer, and Training Specialist. She's here today because she thinks it's important to talk about sexual misconduct in the workplace. She wants people to know that they are not alone. And she would like to be a voice for the voiceless. Welcome, Traci, thank you so much for coming on today.
 
Traci: Hi, Marissa. Thanks for having me.
 
Marissa: Of course, I'm so happy that you're here! So let's get started. Would you mind telling us your story?
 
Traci: Yes. So as you mentioned, I worked for the Marine Corps since 2011. In 2013, I became the victim of MST sexual harassment. Through that very difficult time, and you know, my case is still moving, so it hasn't been resolved. But what I learned through that process was to manage my expectations, because there is, you know, a series of cover ups. There's a system in place that protects the creditor, and not the actual victim, which was really difficult for me because as someone who worked in behavioral health, who worked with sexual assault, who worked with victims of domestic violence, it was unbelievable, what happens.
 
Marissa: Are you comfortable or able to tell us what happened or no?
 
Traci: Absolutely, I can. So I was actually the head of a training team. And around 2013, the organization decided there needed to be a reset. So they needed more Greenside representation — meaning that Marines needed to be more present in the training field. So when we would go out to not only train but to collect information, there needed to be more than just civilians. There needed to be Marines, so that the Marines felt comfortable. And so around that time, they brought in a Marine who had previously been a colleague. We had a decent working rapport. So it wasn't a friendship, it was just someone that I knew. And things got a little sticky there. So in hindsight, I can see where the grooming began. And I can see where the enablers inserted themselves. But I can tell you what's going on. It was in the newspaper, it was all over the news. The harassment turned to threats. And those threats caused some issues for me professionally and personally. So that marine after a series of investigations and cover ups, finally, he was seen before Board of Inquiry, and the board found him guilty in October of 2018. And it took the Marine Corps until February of 2020, to actually separate him, according to the board's recommendations.
 
Marissa: That's disgusting. So after he was found guilty of harassment and sexual misconduct, he was still in his position for…
 
Traci: For 14 months.
 
Marissa: That's disgusting. So he was totally protected. And meanwhile, what were you going through?
 
Traci: In the beginning, I just asked for a safety plan. And the Marine Corps refused to draft, one give, one or enforce one. So I even had my attorney sends documentation and also a request and it was ignored. Eventually, it became too much for me to be on the base and I went on workman's comp. With that being said, the Marine Corps after 11 months decided they wanted to pull the workman's comp and have me go back to work with him. And that was just not an option for me. So as you know, I have not worked since or had a paycheck or any income coming in since March of 2019. So while he was able to get a master's degree, and stay in his uniform, and stay at one active duty until he was able to retire, I on the other hand, I've had my entire life dismantled and basically been sold to put it back together.
 
Marissa: That's not okay. That's very perpetrator-centered.
 
Traci: Exactly. And that was one of the reasons I wanted to speak out because I don't want other victims to feel like whatever they're experiencing, they're alone. There are a lot of tactics that are used, and a lot of narratives that are employed. So, you know, there's a lot of gaslighting. There's a lot that goes on with it. And I remember at one time, and not to be too graphic, but to let you know, with him showing me his penis, I was asked whether or not it was a mistake. Whether I actually saw what I saw. And for me, that is just that's the disgusting part is being questioned all the time.
 
Marissa: Right. You're the one that's being really investigated when they were the one that was accused.
 
Traci: Absolutely.
 
Marissa: Wow, that's like equivalent to asking a victim what they were wearing.
 
Traci: Oh, I was asked that.
 
Marissa: Were you?
 
Traci: Yes. So I was asked… The series of questions that I was asked are just beyond disgusting.
 
Marissa: And you think that with social media and people blowing that up, and they've even had parts of museums, like exhibits of museums centered around these stupid questions, you'd think that they would get the hint to stop asking them. Because they're not relevant. What else could you  have possibly seen?
 
Traci: Right. One would think that would be the case, but it isn't. So the one thing I want to point out is, you know, my experience with the military — uniforms can be really intoxicating. And I can remember even being on hiring panels where I felt like if we hired an individual, they were just ripe for abuse. You know? Because of the fact that uniforms are intoxicating. And there are a lot of people who can't separate one from the other. So the loyalty is to the uniform, not to morals, not to values, not to individuals. And you find a lot of leaders that really just want to get in and get out. They don't see that there's anything wrong with what's going on. And as a matter of fact, there was a general in my case, who even caught the conversation around the sexual harassment. The crude and nasty comments he made were referred to as frat boy humor. And it isn't funny.
 
Marissa: I think that rank also plays a huge part in it. I've been talking to people now for a couple weeks about what they've experienced in the military, or working with the military, and leaders, and generals, and commanders taking advantage of their rank.  Knowing that the people that they harass or abuse that are under them, or below them in rank, it's going to end up coming back up to them anyways. They're kind of stuck.
 
Traci: Yes.
 
Marissa: And that's a total abuse of power.
 
Traci: It really is. And I think it's so subtle at times, it isn't recognized. And that's why I'm a proponent of even prosecuting the enablers. Because this isn't a crime that is committed solo. There are people that help these perpetrators. They cover for them, they encourage the behavior in a lot of ways.
 
Marissa: Silence is encouragement, you know? If you see a battle buddy, or you see somebody —a brother or sister in uniform, doing something bad, or doing something inappropriate or sexual, then say something. And it's unfortunate because there are policies in place that you protect each other. And that kind of protects the perpetrators, doesn't it?
 
Traci: It's supposed to. And I will tell you this. You know, there are a lot of policies in place, and we can read them all day long. If no one enforced system, they are nonexistent. And that's what happens a lot of times is that it becomes more so about protecting your buddy than it is about enforcing the policy and protecting everyone else.
 
Marissa: Do you still work for the Marines?
 
Traci: I am in the process of phasing out at this point. I have an active EEO case, pending. And once that is done, I will phase out and work on my nonprofit, which is Which Narrative. So that was the other thing. In 2019, I began Which Narrative, and that was to help victims identify where they fall in the process. One of the things I can tell you is that I knew who I was prior to this happening. All the ambitions, goals and everything else that I had, the dreams I had for myself, I can tell you exactly what they were. I can tell you that my voice was lost in this ordeal. And afterwards, I'm a completely different person. And so rather than being told who I am, rather than being judged, and rather than buying into the things that were said, “What was she wearing? What type of perfume did she have on? Was she seductive towards you in any way?”  Changing that narrative to say that I am an adult woman. I'm a professional first and foremost. And I know how to conduct myself in a workplace. So unfortunately, victims are taught to believe that they're the ones that are in error. So if you wear a button down shirt, maybe you should have had on a turtleneck, you know? Or if you wear a skirt that comes to your knees, you should have had one down to your ankles. And it's just one of those things where we have to change the dialogue, we have to change the narrative.
 
Marissa: I love that. So when you were going through the whole mess with being investigated, and even after he was found guilty, and he was still there, what did you do to keep yourself sane; to heal; to process?
 
Traci: So I'm a big proponent for mental health. And I knew I needed to speak to someone because it was beyond the bandwidth of family, friends, and even people who were supportive. I needed professional help. I've been diagnosed with PTSD, anxiety, social anxiety, and also depression. So I knew that it wasn't a lifestyle I wanted to live. I had to find someone that could help me with those coping mechanisms, or helped me, give me the tools I needed so that I could cope, and still be the person that I was called to be. 
 
Marissa: That's amazing. So you went to therapy?
 
Traci: Yes, I did. Yes.
 
Marissa: That's phenomenal. I'm really proud of you being first of all, open and honest with me and listeners to your mental health. I think that more people talking about it will have less of a stigma and less of like a taboo conversation. Does that make sense?
 
Traci: It does, it absolutely does. And I will say this. I heard a long time ago that victims become the best actors and actresses you'll meet. And it didn't make sense to me then. And it made sense to me, after it impacted my life so heavily. Because you get to a place where you get up and you smile long enough to accomplish whatever you need to accomplish. Like I said, I'm raising — I have four children, and I have two minors at this point. And you can't parent from being in bed, you know. I couldn't parent on the couch. I couldn't hide from the sun. You know, they're active, and they're involved. And so you get to a place where you smile long enough to go do what you need to do. And then you get back and you're like, “Ah, now I can pull the curtains and hide from the sun.” And so I want other people to know, it's okay to not be okay. And the only way to get through that is to get the help that’s needed. Don't ever think that something is wrong with you when you need help. You need it and seek it out. And I'm all for it.
 
Marissa: Absolutely. As part of my healing program, my coaching program, the fourth step is finding resources that work for you. So therapy is amazing. And it helps a lot of people, but it might not help everyone. And so finding those things, and those techniques and those activities that do help you cope beyond the smile, and try and go on with your day until you can hide, finding the things that help you work through that is really, really important. So what advice would you give to survivors who experienced something similar to what you did?
 
Traci: So I would say manage your expectations. That's one of the biggest things that I've pushed, because I think we expect people to understand what's going on with us. And we expect the support. And there are a lot of people that don't know how. So I would say manage your expectations. Find a solid support system for yourself. And it's okay to interchange those people. Like I have one person that I'll call when I'm having a great day. Someone else I'll call when I'm slipping. And then there's someone that I talked to when I've made a fall. That will be the second thing. And just make sure you're listening to yourself, your gut tells you what you need. And let's not ignore what our guts tell us, and make sure that we're being true to ourselves.
 
Marissa: I really like that you touched on that you have certain people that you turn to in certain situations. That's really important. You know, knowing who you have around you as a resource. Who can be there for you in a moment of need. I would love for anyone listening to sit down right now and think about three people in your life that you can call when you're feeling depressed; when you're feeling anxious; when you're feeling triggered, that you trust, that you know will be there to support you.
 
Traci: Yes, it's really important in to have those people on hand. So forward thinking is the other thing. I think that a lot of times we get to a place where we think we're okay. And we say okay, we're beyond this. It won't happen. But what we forget, or what we aren't aware of is that there are a lot of times when we're triggered, and just out of nowhere, you know. There are times when I can see someone in uniform and I'm triggered, and not that they've done anything to me, but it brings it back, you know?
 
Marissa: Yeah, absolutely. It might not be like a full on panic attack. But if your heart starts racing, there's so many different signs of being triggered or being traumatized. You know, it manifests in so many different ways that being self-aware enough to recognize those and then make a phone call to somebody.
 
Traci: Yes, absolutely. One of the things I wanted to touch on was to make sure that people aren't allowing themselves to be minimized. One of the challenges I faced was, because it was a non-penetrative event, I was told there was no trauma associated with it. And so I want to make sure the other thing is that, you know, we're not minimizing these experiences and the impact they have on us.
 
Marissa: Yeah, absolutely. I'm so happy. You said that. All the time, people will call me or write to me and say, oh, well, you know, my experience wasn't as bad as somebody else's. You know, I wasn't like actually raped or assaulted. It doesn't matter. I love that you said that Traci, because it really it doesn't need to be penetrative. In order for it to be traumatizing.
 
Traci: Absolutely. Excellent. We're on the same page. Absolutely. And, you know, these instances, there are lifelong consequences. So I know that I have to, for the rest of my life, have a plan in place, because I never know when I'm going to need that support system. Or when I'll need to be back in therapy, or when I need to modify the way I eat, or whatever it is I'm doing in my life. I know that for the rest of my life, I will have to take inventory of where I am, what's going on around me and who I can reach out to.
 
Marissa: And I'm glad to hear that you have people around you that you feel supported by and that empower you and help you overcome all those things that you've endured.
 
Traci: Thank you. And I thank you because you're one of them. Thank you.
 
Marissa: I appreciate that. Thank you. Is there anything else that you want to talk about that I didn't ask about?
 
Traci: No, I think we've covered it. I'll just reiterate. Reach out, manage your expectations and reach out. We believe you. We have a solid support system. Never let anyone minimize you or your experience and just know that there are other people out there ready to support.
 
Marissa: I love it. And I cannot wait to see the amazing things that you do with Which Narrative. As soon as that's up and running. Please let me know we can collaborate on something with my nonprofit. I think you do like a big initiative or something.
 
Tracy: Yes.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, domestic violence military, army domestic violence, military spouse abuse, domestic abuse in the military, military and domestic abuse, military and domestic violence, veterans and domestic violence, domestic violence in military families, veteran domestic violence, MST military, MST movement, military sexual trauma movement, MST survivor, abuse of power, military abuse of power, UCMJ abuse of power, sexual harassment, harassed