Healing From Emotional Abuse

Healing From Emotional Abuse: The Music Industry is Toxic: with Brian Morelli

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today, I wanted to get into how music and the music industry is impacted by sexual assault. I know that over the course of the last couple years, actors came out and spoke out about their abuse, and singers and musicians, and also fans of bands who were being abused and assaulted by the bands. So today, I brought on an expert in the music industry, who is also my best friend, also a radio DJ for a major station, and also the producer of this podcast. The accolades just keep building. So, welcome to Healing From Emotional Abuse Brian Morelli. He's a multi-instrumentalist, musician in the Jersey Shore music area. He's probably been in about 300 bands since I've known him. He's currently the music director for a major radio station, and has 15 years of music industry experience. Welcome Brian Morelli. I'm so happy you're here today.
 
Brian: Thank you very much, It's actually 248 bands.
 
Marissa: I just round up to the nearest 100.
 
Brian: Thanks for having me on. This is really cool.
 
Marissa: Of course, thank you for being here. And for everything that you do for me and for the podcast. You're awesome. So, let's chat music industry. So, over the course of the last couple years, a lot of bands have been called out for inappropriate sexual behavior. And that's kind of where I want to start. And as a music industry expert, I would love your take on that.
 
Brian: Oh, sure. Yes, of course. I mean, it's really nothing new in the music industry. Since the era of popular music had started, you had this perfect storm mix of abuse of influence, potentially substances, wealth, fame, and that is nothing new. That can arguably start with Jerry Lee Lewis and go up until now, in the past few years. And this is not to negate anything in the film industry. But the first outing of Harvey Weinstein from a lot of the survivors who have had experiences with him, that kind of started this snowball effect of the entertainment industry and people in the entertainment industry, who have abused their influence. So, it's really nothing new specifically in music. And recently, specifically, very, very recently, maybe the most notable case would be Dr. Luke, the producer who infamously worked with Kesha. And the whole lawsuit that had followed that. And Marissa, I know you know all about that.
 
Marissa: Oh, yeah. No, I definitely followed that case. And Praying, Kesha’s single that she released about her abuse is by far one of my favorited songs. It's just liked a power anthem for survivors.
 
Brian: Right? Yes. And so, to put it very broadly, the theme of power comes up in sexual assault, as you've defined many times before on here, and I’ll ask you to do that, again. But also that power in individuals in the music industry, not just in performers, but like producers like Dr. Luke and label executives, people who say, Hey, I could promise you all these things. Basically, ‘Harvey Weinstein’s' of the music industry. Many of them have not dealt with the repercussions yet. And that's still to come. But it's happening, you know, the dominoes are falling.
 
Marissa: Thank goodness! Because that, like you mentioned, they just they have such a hold on these performers, and on the people, who are aspiring performers, that it's so easy for them to take advantage and hold their career over their head. Because the producers and the agents and the managers, they have all the power. Dr. Luke literally had Kesha and tons of other pop artists, lives and livelihoods and careers in his hand. And would threaten to crush their careers and would threaten to end everything that they were building and working towards, if they didn't do certain things for him. And I know with Kesha, she said that he drugged her and raped her. So, she really didn't even have a memory of it. But that is abuse of power in its most infant form.
 
Brian: Yeah, I totally agree.
 
Marissa: So, thank you for bringing that up. I know that you and I have had conversations in the past, because you're a big metal fan, and I think you know where I'm going with this.
 
Brian: Okay, yes.
 
Marissa: Do you remember the band, I think it was Decapitated?
 
Brian: Yeah, that is. That's a very bizarre case. Because there are a lot of behind closed doors, legalities that I think went down with the band Decapitated, specifically. But the story was they're doing a North American tour, they were on the West coast, they were in Washington State, I believe it was. They played a show, now they're from overseas — they're a Polish band. And when they were playing a show, the story was that they had invited one or two female fans onto their tour bus after the show. And the story goes, that the entire band took part in the rape of one of those fans. The entire band denied it. They were held in an American jail. And then just one day, they were let go, and they were brought back to Poland, they were freed, and all the charges were dropped. So, there's a big chunk of the of the middle of that story that is missing. And that hasn't been brought back. Something else from the rock and metal world, I do want to actually bring up. There is a kind of an umbrella sub genre in rock and metal right now. It's somewhere between metal core and pop punk. It's a little bit emo. And those are bands that their target demographic is basically teens and early 20s. And that is a very weird chemistry that I did want to bring up. Those are bands with young fans, and they know that they are being marketed to young fans. That's also a style of music that isn't terribly mainstream. So, when these bands are signed, and they get into the music industry, they're in a really small, rather independent section of the music industry. Small record labels and stuff like that. So, with these bands that are smaller, but have some underground notoriety, they might have really active social media, but their record labels might not have the resources to hire a social media coordinator. So, the bands, the band members themselves, are policing their own social media accounts. So, when you have music that's really emotive, and it connects with young people in a really visceral way, where it kind of brings out this emotional response through its lyrics, and you have a thinly veiled social media presence where any fan can say, Hey, I love your music and tend to one, a member is going to respond saying, Hey, thank you very much, a conversation can ensue from that. So, there have been bands that have been brought down, specifically over the past month, oddly enough, by fans who some were underaged, some weren't. But they say that, hey, this member solicited pictures. This member sent pictures. This member engaged in lewd acts. And a lot of those members are dealing with the consequences now.
 
Marissa: I mean, I wish I could say I'm surprised. I'm just more disgusted. As an artist, right, The whole purpose of making music is all self expression. So, I guess I wonder if the being signed gives them like a power feeling? Or if they're just gross individuals to begin with? If you know that your target market is young, why would you even engage in that way? And the answer is power and control. People don't send lewd pictures, because they want people to see their genitalia. It's a shock value thing. I mean, I've received my fair share of unsolicited pictures of guys. And it was never because that person was genuinely interested in me. It was because they wanted me to feel a certain way. And they knew that sending that picture would make me feel that way. So, I guess I just don't understand why that behavior isn't met with consequences. Like what happens to these bands that are caught doing that stuff.
 
Brian: Right now, we are in such an interesting era of accountability. Certainly a new era of accountability and people, people call it cancel culture, which certainly has its pitfalls. And I'm not denying that for a second. But when you've got fans who are coming forward with their stories, and you then have a legion of fans who are supporting that person and believe in that person's story. It's a very powerful thing. There was a band who is very underground, but in that scene, that metal core scene. I don't think they're very good personally, but they're called Homewrecker. And a lot of allegations, and very serious allegations came against their lead singer. Came against, actually, a couple of members of that band. But most seriously toward their lead singer. Well, the entire band imploded. Not only did the band implode from all the heat that they got, just from their fans saying, how could you engage and stuff like this. But their record label is getting heat from the fans, the fans are turning to the record label saying, how could you have signed this band? Now, you could say the record label probably didn't know. The record label might have known but still, that's the representation of that label that, that band is acting like that. Not only that, that lead singer of that band, worked as a roadie for a much bigger metal band called Black Veil Brides. That band is getting heat from the fans, because they're saying how could you still have had this guy employed as a roadie. Dude doesn't even play a single note, he carries the cases. How could you employ and pay a roadie who does stuff like that? Cancel culture is a very powerful thing. At times that power can be misguided. That's a conversation for another time. I think that we're seeing a dawning of people believing the survivors, as opposed to taking the side of the “heroes.”
 
Marissa: And I think that that's so important. I’m really happy about that. And I'm happy that you've said it. I am thrilled, every time I go on Twitter, and look up #speakingout for the wrestling industry. And #metoo. Every time I look up those hashtags. Now, it's not met with anger and victim blaming. I mean, it still is sometimes, but the vast majority of people are supporting and empowering and advocating for survivors. I can't speak on this particular topic, because I'm not in the music industry. But I've been doing a lot of research in the wrestling industry. It's really quite beautiful that people are posting for other people that are afraid to come forward. You know, I have a friend who was impacted by speak out for the wrestling world. And that person is afraid to speak out for fear of retaliation. So a ton of their friends posted for them. And I think that, that camaraderie and that advocacy is so powerful. And back to the topic at hand, I'm so happy with this cancelled culture, Because I tend to side with survivors and champions if they speak their truth, I know that that's not easy to do. And so, I'm more apt to believe them, than side with an abuser. Does that make sense?
 
Brian: Yes. Oh, yeah, of course, there are still some gray areas and many stories that may have come up and may have disappeared mysteriously like that band Decapitated from before. One that comes to mind, and this happened a few years ago. This was one of the stories that kind of directly followed the Harvey Weinstein, the Kevin Spacey. this was during that timeline of events. The hard rock vocalist Maynard James Keenan, who's from the band Tool, and A Perfect Circle, and a few others. A very big front man, widely known in that world and in that universe, and there was one very, very detailed story of backstage abuse and sexual assault that he had committed against her. And I think one other story came out, it was so detailed, I never forgot it. And he was quick to come out and deny that and say, almost kind of laugh and shrug it off. Saying this is a pathetic money grab attempt. And then it all disappeared. And that's not the only occurrence that happens, an uncounted amount of times in the music industry, and I never forgot that person's story. And it might be completely unsubstantiated. But I never forgot it. So now when I listen to Tool, and I'm going to get to this in a second, because I do still listen to them. I do still listen to him. That is always in the back of my mind And I don't know how legitimate it is.
 
Marissa: So, yes, to everything. Yes. It's really that I think the fact that you heard the story, right, and then it disappeared in thin air is very telling, because that happens so much when people that are famous and with money are accused, right? Money Talks. And it's easier to pay someone off in silence them than it is to face reality go to trial. So, a lot of people will settle, either settle outside of court or try and pay them off. The accusers-off to stop telling their story or some of them are threatened with legal action or threatened that their lives or their families will be in danger. I mean, it's really disgusting, what happens when people speak out. And like we said before, generally people were always more apt to believe the “hero” or the “lead singer” or “the drummer” or, and that's why the stories just go away. And everyone just automatically assumes they were lying It's easy to write it off as a false report, which is why rape culture and victim blaming are so rampant.
 
Brian: Yes, of course. And it's rampant in the, in the music industry, certainly, you know, you have this sphere of influence, you have amazing technology. I mean, mind blowing technology that beats fan mail from 40 years ago. You can message somebody on Twitter or Instagram, some platform even TikTok now. And if you get that split second of that hero recognized what you said, that’s almost an addictive feeling for fans. And people who can want to interact, seek out more interactions with people with this influence. I think it kind of comes down to and I hate to arrive at this finish line. But I think it kind of comes down to people in show business and performers have to hold themselves accountable. Sounds easy. And it should be that easy. That's not without its pitfalls.
 
Marissa: I think we live in a very deny, deny culture, right? We're innocent until proven guilty. And all that jazz. I mean, I was taught growing up, if I'm in a car accident, never take responsibility for it. And I think that that is kind of ingrained in us, right? We never want to be at fault for anything. We never want to be held accountable for anything, because it'll just get us into trouble. But we do need to check ourselves. And we need to hold ourselves accountable for our actions. And we need to be held accountable by friends and family. And so how do we change that culture? Like how, what can we do to make it so that people hold each other accountable? I think that's like, the key to fixing rape culture.
 
Brian: Yeah, it should be as straightforward as lead by example. There are other musicians, there are other performers in show business who do just as much calling out as some of these people on the receiving end. I mean, it's not all bad. It's not all evil, there are good people. And there are responsible people in show business. And we would probably just have to see more public action, more statements. Listen, people aren't afraid of record labels anymore, because record labels don't hold the key to success anymore. They used to. And we're so brainwashed from that mindset that is decades old. But we don’t, nobody needs record labels anymore. So, a record label might have some sort of financial leverage on, “Hey, if you speak out, there are consequences.” But it's all survivable, the implications, the consequences, they are not as great as the moral consequences that could come from not reporting something. Not observing something and being vocal about it.
 
Marissa: I think more people need to be made an example of. I think that once we start actually holding people accountable, and giving like reasonable consequences and jail sentences for people who do sexually assault. the FBI qualifies rape as the second most violent crime behind homicide. So why isn't it given the same clout? Right? When you say homicide, or you hear the word homicide, you get chills? When you say or hear the word rape. It's almost met with like, a shrug of disbelief, right? Like, that doesn't really happen. And we know it does. You know, it's now more common to talk about than ever before, but it's still not worth coming forward or seeking some sort of legal action about because it's still not taken seriously in that domain. So, I want to shift topics. I know that in the last couple years, a lot of artists have released songs about women empowerment or sexual assault and how not to do it. Like Keith Urban's song, Female, is probably one of the best in my opinion, not only because I'm a big Keith Urban fan, but he also is a big advocate for domestic violence. It's like one of his main causes. Him and his wife, Nicole Kidman are big advocates for domestic violence survivors. But there are other artists that are putting out beautiful songs to help empower people to speak out and break their silence. So, do you think thing that will shift any mindsets, or do you think that'll make a difference?
 
Brian: Artistry is so subjective. So, it's a matter of what somebody is inspired by, in the moment to write a song like that. In artists like Keith Urban, he's brave enough to do that. And he would do well. And he would sell it well. Not sell being like crude financially mean that he would sell that subject matter. Well, he's believable.
 
Marissa: And he's genuine.
 
Brian: Yeah, totally. That is a big challenge for artists to be genuine about a field that maybe they don't have personal experience in. It takes trying and it takes wanting to do that. Action in artistry is always welcome. It's always, I think, greeted with some sort of praise. Risk taking is there. Might go against some commercial goals. But I kind of don't care about that.
 
Marissa: Right? You I think you're the one that told me that Praying was submitted for a single on the Billboard, whatever chart, and it didn't even break the top 30. But Praying is such a power song. And I mean, look at Till It Happens To You by Lady Gaga, I don't even think it broke top 100. But that song, God, it's so raw and honest and beautiful.
 
Brian: What's a bit problematic from there would be radio airplay. A lot of the charts are dictated by radio plays, and that is left up to radio programmers and a lot of them think about music very differently than the artists world. It's very objective. It's an objective way of looking at music, which can be infuriating. There's a way to finesse that though. But somebody who programs let's just say a pop station, they want the most up tempo, upbeat songs to keep their listeners engaged. So, when a pop artist like Kesha comes out with this inchworm — slow ballad, as powerful as Praying is as a song, you've got a legion of radio program is going oh my god. And from the radio side, I get why they're saying that. I'm in the country world. And when we got Female by Keith Urban, I have to say we said the same thing We're like, Oh, geez. But do you want your station to stand for that? Some programmers do some don't. And there introduces a new topic that could be problematic of silence
 
Marissa: 100% And by not getting the songs out to the people that need to hear them, you're doing a disservice to survivors, to the community to the artists. And I understand on one hand, a programmer’s perspective. Yes, the whole purpose of a radio station and making it profitable is to provide what the constituents and what the listeners want. So, you know, when you're driving a car, you don't want to hear a power ballad that's going to make you cry, you want to hear party rocking in the house, you're like, I understand that. But the part that you said where it, it's like silencing people. It's exactly the opposite of what all of these current movements, and all of these artists are trying to do.
 
Brian: Yeah, you're right. The music industry, and specifically, the radio industry is very mechanical in that sort of way with the music that comes out. And for a music radio station, whether it be Top 40, or Rock, or whatever the format is. On music radio station, the only product that they have is the music. That is the product. So, a lot of programmers look at that and say why take a chance on that. You'll see the potential of somebody, maybe not liking a song and tuning out. It's a very crude way of doing business. And the victims in that case, are the survivors who are being under represented.
 
Marissa: You're totally right. You know, the people who are really kind of getting the short end of the stick are the survivors that need to hear those songs.
 
Brian: It's unfortunate just how many artists over the years, over the entire era of 20th and 21st century popular music, how many artists have been problematic and how survivors don't have representation in music. It's easier to think of problematic artists.  An R&B singer, a legendary R&B singer Sam Cooke, people don't remember how big of a piece of shit he was.
 
Marissa: Really?
 
Brian: Yeah. A history of sexual assault. Instances of rape that may have gone undocumented. He was killed in a shooting. He was at a motel with a young female fan. And he was being forceful, sexually, and then ultimately, it turned into an attempted rape. And the manager of the motel intervened with a firearm, and that's how he ultimately died — Sam Cooke. But people don't remember that. A lot of people just remember the music. It's a very rose-colored glasses sort of industry. And there are celebrities outside of the music industry right now, where their past isn't really being addressed as problematic. Arnold Schwarzenegger has a very tattered history. Many instances of sexual assault throughout the years. A horribly abusive marriage and now he's one of the biggest personalities on TikTok. Gen. Z doesn’t remember that. That's 20 years before Gen. Z, and they're not doing the research. So, I think we really need to examine who we follow.
 
Marissa: Right and make those histories stick. Clearly. I mean, I was aware of a bunch of the horrible things that Arnold Schwarzenegger did. The problem was he was never held accountable. It came up, it disappeared. But if we do the right thing as a society, and hold these people who are doing horrible, horrible things accountable, then you continue to hear about it. Like you will never not know that Hitler was a bad person. I don't care if you're born in the year 3000. It'll still be known that Hitler was a bad person. Why are we not defaming these people's characters enough that it sticks? We know that Jeffrey Epstein's a bad person? Right? There's a documentary about it, there are legal documents about it He was a horrible person. But I bet you in 10 years, people don't remember that. I'm sure they won't even remember him. But his crimes and the horrible things he did, should be remembered. Because when we forget history, it's doomed to repeat itself. Right? If we don't remember history, it's doomed to repeat itself. So, by not talking about it and not making a huge stink, that sticks, that's when we're doing a disservice to the younger generations like Gen. Z, who don't know the horrible things that Arnold Schwarzenegger did. Or Sam Cooke. That needs to be like, legendary status of these are bad people don't look up to them.
 
Brian: Yeah, yes, you're right. There's an interesting section of this conversation that can turn into how much of it do we tolerate? Can we separate art from artists? Sometimes you can and that's what I wanted to bring up. I'll reintroduce Maynard James Keenan and Tool. I can still listen to them But I'll always think about one person's story. And it might not even be real, I don't know. But I've got a tough time listening to Sam Cooke now. I know that that's real. Stand-up comedy is its own world. And you can have eight separate episodes about that. The most recent being Chris Delia, notably unfunny, and the big fallout in the past couple of weeks of his social media interactions with underage fans. So, I think it can become a less of a conversation about the severity of the crime, and just the fact that it was committed.
 
Marissa: Right. I love that. And I think that you and I should do a couple more episodes scattered about comedians and about separating art from artists. Because you and Mike Sellari, who came on a while ago, to talk about movies about narcissism, are really good at that, you can still listen to those people and recognize they were bad people but also like, remember their past but still listen to their music. And enjoy their music, or their comedy, or whatever. I am not the person that can do that. I was a huge Kevin Spacey fan and now I am a huge kill Kevin Spacey fan. And I mean that along with various others. I have a very difficult time separating the art from the artist, because I think that your art is a self-expression of who you are. So, when Louie C.K. was joking about jerking off in front of people, like his staff, he was actually doing it. That wasn't a separation of art and artist. But that is a separate conversation for a separate podcast episode that we can and should do if you want to.
 
Brian: Yeah, of course, I mean that that's an easy power move. You got to assume and I will safely assume that Louie C.K. probably went backstage after that set and said to a friend, “Hey, I literally just told my truth to everybody and I will never suffer any consequences.” There's arrogance in that and there's arrogance, obviously in power and in show business as well. Separating art from artists is difficult. It is so difficult. It kind of depends on a bunch of different variables. It depends on what the art is. It also depends on the severity of the crime. There are still people who can watch The Cosby Show reruns. I don't get it. That escapes me completely, because the allegations against the person are so serious, that how does that not infiltrate your mind? For some people, it doesn't. And okay. I have a tough time I mean; I can still watch reruns of Seinfeld and a mid 90s Jerry Seinfeld was involved in a consensual relationship with a 17-year-old. And that's the thing. When you have to use an age of consent law to justify your actions. The issue is already outside of that justification.
 
Marissa: Right. I mean, listen, I'm not trying to judge anybody else's lifestyle. You like who you like, but if you're in your 30s, or 40s, and you're interested in a teenage person, I mean, that, to me, seems like an error. Like a computer error, right? It's like a glitch. Why are you attracted to somebody that is so much younger than you. And fine age of consent laws, those were created for marriages. Back in the day, like, I don't want this to sound shitty, but like, I'll never understand it. I had friends in high school when we were 16 and 17 that were dating 26- and 28-year-old. And I, to this day, don't understand that because I'm 29 right now. And I could never find somebody who's that young, sexually attractive. Not only are we not on the same maturity plane, and I know this is anecdotal evidence, but you're in a different life. You know, aeons ahead of just in wisdom, that person. I look at 16- and 17-year old’s, his children, you know. They still have so much growing to do and learning to do and I could never imagine myself being in a sexual relationship with them in any way.
 
Brian: It's just an educated guess, really. But I hate to bring up potentially the unfair assumption into this, but I think it might not even be an issue of physical attraction to a younger person. I think it's more of a physical attraction to the influence. It's more of a power trip. It's an influence trip that you can get over somebody who's younger. And it's getting off on ageism, and that is weird. And that is gross. And that is murky.
 
Marissa: Right. I agree. And going back to separation of art and artist. I didn't know that about Jerry Seinfeld. I've also never really been a fan of Seinfeld the show. And I get flack for that constantly. But a point of contention between Larry and I, for anyone who doesn't know Larry's my boyfriend, and he's a big Derrick Rose fan. And he's, you know, a big Kobe fan and those two people were also accused. He loves movies, like I do, but he like you, separates the art from the artist. And so, Ben Affleck Big point of contention for us because Ben Affleck is in so many amazing movies that I can't in good faith watch because he sexually assaulted a news anchor. He knew about Harvey Weinstein and didn't speak up or say anything. And he openly admitted that he said, yeah, we all knew. It was like a boy’s club and for me, that's disgusting. You know, if you know that he is hurting so many people and you do nothing about it. You are equally as accountable. You are equally as guilty.
 
Brian: Yeah. Yeah, of course. In the film industry, there is a decade's old mentality of Hollywood is untouchable. The biggest people there are untouchable. Harvey Weinstein can break you if he really wanted to. He can Absolutely. He can erase your career from existence make it like you never even were born. And people in Hollywood were so afraid of that. And I'm sure there are still big individuals that people are still afraid of. There's the fear of the consequences of outing somebody. There's also this whole arrogance of, Yeah, we're an exclusive club, and you can't touch us. But again, I truly believe we're in a new era of accountability. And I am so optimistic about that. I again, will reiterate that I think cancel culture needs a bit of a tweaking, but the hearts are in the right place. And I truly believe we're going to see famous people benefit more from showcasing a moral compass than not.
 
Marissa: I agree, and I truly hope so. I love everything that you’re saying, I want cancel culture to be beneficial and productive. And I want people who are bad people — who hurt people on purpose, to be held accountable for their actions. Like, I don't think that's such a big ask. If somebody's murder somebody, they're held accountable. If somebody, robs somebody, they're held accountable. If somebody breaks into your home, they're held accountable. So why is somebody forcing themselves on a person taking away their control, violating their personal space, psychologically damaging people. Like, why doesn't that hold the same weight as property and as murder? I mean, by doing such horrible acts, you're changing a person. You're literally retraining their brain to believe that they are not good enough. That they are objects. That they are unworthy. Like, that is so powerful, but that's less investigated, and has less clout than somebody breaking into my house and stealing my TV. Why? You know, and I hope that the world is changing And I see the world starting to change on Twitter and I, mentioned this in several podcasts, but I am so proud of Gen. Z, and the younger generations, because they are moving mountains, right now, faster than any other generation. They are the trolls. They are the people that are the most accepting and tolerant and loving and doing everything they can to create the world that I wanted to grow up in, and didn't have the know-how, or the resources. I'm like, honored to be advocating for them, and to be alive in the time that they are doing such great work. And so, I just want to say thank you, to everybody who's using the internet responsibly and using it to promote beautiful societal changes. Thank you. That is so important. And it's impactful. And whatever backlash you get, no, it comes from a place of fear, and loss of control. And that you guys are doing the right thing and on the right path. And I am here to support anything and everything that you guys are doing and saying. And you have a good chunk of millennials that will stand with you.
 
Brian: I like to think that we’re hopefully the last passive generation, us millennials. And I wish I could frame everything you just said Gen. Z has it going on. Really, Gen. Z. They are the generation that is actually idolizing a higher moral compass and they are the ones pushing for personal accountability. You know what, if Dr. Luke was working right now and Kesha happened, it would be a swift eraser of anything Dr. Luke has ever done. And Praying worked. It really did. And Kesha’s actions absolutely worked. But not after Dr. Luke had his run of the music industry and people in it. So, Kesha’s not the only person there. He's got countless victims, unfortunately. And it took a long, long, long ass time to get him out of the industry. Because he had such influence. He held every major hit from the past, like 15 years, from 2016 back, that he probably owned a third of the popular music industry. That's how powerful he was. And it took so long to take him down. But if that was going on today, it would barely take a week and he'd be gone. And that is Gen. Z's actions, and people who are tech savvy and who do wish for better and push for it. Millennials, my own generation, my goodness, am I disappointed at how passive we are. But hey, it's okay. We've got kids to take care of so.
 
Marissa: No, I agree. And, you know, I almost wish more people that Dr. Luke hurt would come forward, because they're coming forward into a world that will coddle them. You know, I know that when Kesha was trying to get out of her Sony contract, Adele donated a huge chunk of money, and so did Taylor Swift, and a bunch of other female artists who worked under Dr. Luke. Kelly Clarkson even came out and spoke not against Dr. Luke but said that she's aware of happenings and didn't admit if anything happened to her or not, didn't disclose anything. But it's so telling just the support that she got, even though it was delayed. And I'm happy that Dr. Luke is out of the industry because of all the horrible things he did. But now it's time for everyone to speak out. Which is happening and I'm so happy to be alive for it. I just I want to see everything move faster now.
 
Brian: I truly believe it will I’m not just here spitting out optimism for the sake of it. I truly believe that we’re getting there.  We’re getting there fast, too.  A lot of those big-wigs in the industry, the big heads there, that had the power and control over the entertainment industry for the past few decades, their tenure is almost up.  They’re getting out, and they’re getting out fast. Sometimes from the cutting of some disgraceful actions, and sometimes, just from age.  But there is going to be a new wave of new people coming in, and I only feel optimistic about that.
 
Marissa: Me too.  Is there anything else? Is there any other advice you want to give to survivors?
 
Brian: Yes. I mean, my advice for survivors is, don’t feel afraid to come forward.  Marissa had said that you’ll be walking into a world of support.  And those who don’t, they’re on the outs.  The people who still believe in the “heroes”, that is an old mentality, and that mentality is being shifted.  So, if you’re afraid of public opinion, I understand that.  But there’s less to be afraid of now with that, than there may have been years ago.
 
Marissa: And if coming out is something that you want to do, or speaking out about your abuse, breaking your silence is something that you want to do publicly, but you’re afraid of the backlash, find me on Twitter @MarissaFCohen, and tag me in it. And the second somebody says something nasty, me and thousands of other people are going to shame them.  And I am committed to that. That’s my favorite thing to do. To try and correct people who are victim blaming. That is also an option if that’s something that you want to do publicly but you’re afraid.
 
Brian: That is an incredible resource for people.
 
Marissa: So thank you so much for being here Brian. This was an awesome conversation that we’re probably going to split into several different podcasts. We covered a lot of topics.  Thank you again so much for all the information, and the work you’re doing for survivors.
Brian: Thanks for having me on.  This really was a blast.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Healing From Emotional Abuse: Wrestling Speaking Out: With BCP and Jen Casale

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Rob: All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to a very special episode of the BCP / breaking through our silence podcast connection as we continue to breaking through the Speak Out movement with my tag team partner herself. Multiple-time Amazon award-winning Best-Selling Author, my good friend Miss Marissa Cohen. Marissa what's up?
 
Marissa: Hey, tag me in, how are you?
 
Rob: I'm good. There's no partner I'd rather have right now doing well, you know, as we say all things considered 2020 has been crazy. But we're doing what we can over here. And right now we're so I'm so honored to be talking to someone that I've honestly been a fan of for a while now, both in the ring, and on social media. And of course, we're so happy to welcome to the show a Pro Wrestler, Cosplayer, and a certified PHR. What a resume. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the show Miss Jen Casale. Jen, how are you?
 
Jen: I am doing well. How are you guys?
 
Rob: Doing well, all things considered. Yeah. But um, Jen, thanks so much for a few minutes of your time. You know, you do it all. Like I said, What a resume. First and foremost, you know, it's 2020. It's COVID World. How are you? How's the family making out? How are you doing right now?
 
Jen: We're doing pretty well. You know, things. I'm out in Philadelphia. So, things are kind of half open and half closed. And we're kind of doing what we can. We're getting in, you know, a little wrestling as socially distant as we can, when we can. And yeah, we're just we're trying to get by taking it day by day doing our best to stay safe.
 
Rob: Yeah, I think we all are more importantly, you say Philly. what is the best cheesesteak?
 
Jen: Ah, that's a tough one. Because everybody's going to tell you like Jim's or you know. They're like, everybody's taking you to the tourist spot. But there's a really good spot right outside of Philadelphia that I like a lot. That's called Leo's and it's out in Folcroft, PA. It's like, a mile out of the city limit.
 
Rob: Awesome. I know. I'm asking the hard-hitting questions already. But I'm a foodie, so, I got to know all the good spots in America tells me about the Chicago pizza and all that. But anyway, let's get to some real talk here, ladies. And again, Jen, thank you so much for your time You know, so let's start at the beginning here. You know, we see this hashtag speak out is hashtag speaking out. movement starts to trend on Twitter. Jen, I want to know your initial reaction. Were you surprised? Were you expecting this, I want to know your gut reaction here?
 
Jen: I was so happy; I was so happy. I mean, it's so sad and so happy all at the same time. I was really filled with a great mix of emotions, because I came into the Wrestling World probably about four years ago. And ever since I got here, I saw the need for this to happen. And I saw a couple people speak out here and there. And whenever would happen, it would get brushed under the rug. It would get shooed away those people would be the, “Difficult to work with.” They wouldn't get hired anymore. Which was really sad. But then it's this, that was like the whole dichotomy of like. Well, do you want to just kind of deal with this culture so that you can pursue this thing that you love? Or, you know, you know, or do you just like, stop and take a stand? So, for me, I waited a really long time. I'm very, very old to be in wrestling. But I waited a long time, because when I was young, the only option was to you know, I was working as a stunt woman when I was 18. And they were like, go be a wrestler, go be a wrestler. And, you know, I was like, No, I don't want to have a bra and panties match. That's like, you know, I don’t want to rip my somebody else's clothes off in a ring while the guys get to have all the fun. That's not what I'm here to do. So, I waited, and I waited, and I waited. And it seemed to get better. You know, you saw women in wrestling having main events and doing things. And I'm like, Yes, we can all do this! And you know, I got here and it's so much better than it was, but there's still so much, you know, kind of muck leftover. And then things that are so ingrained in the culture that they just… people don't even know that they're doing things wrong when they're doing them wrong.
 
Rob: Absolutely. It's such a crazy time. But I did want to ask you, you know, this is very interesting to me, because we have a lot of people come on the show and say you know, wrestling — if this was another business this would happen. Wrestling needs a human resources department; we were kind of talking about this off air you are a certified PHR. Tell us a little bit about that. And how that that plays into the wrestling business a little bit.
 
Jen: So, to be a certified PHR, it's a certification test that you take. So, it allows you to put those fancy letters after your name, which I still feel really funny about doing. Because I'm like, I'm not a doctor or anything like that. But actually to take the test, The qualifications are that you either have to have a doctorate in a related field or you have to have worked in the field for at least five years. So, I was not fortunate enough to go to college for all that time. But I was fortunate enough to have a lot of work under my belt. And I took the test and I was very surprised I passed it on my first try. There's only about a 50% pass rate for everyone who takes the test. And it's everything the test is everything from, you know, Benefits Administration to, you know, Sexual Harassment and Sensitivity training. To the hiring and onboarding and firing and how companies are structured. You really have to know your business, inside and out. And literally knowing every part of running a business goes into taking that test. So, for me, that was a real badge of pride. I passed it in 2018. I continued to work in human resources in a regular 9-5 job. And I kind of when I got to start training at CCW, I literally came in and I feel like I'm such a nerd in this way. But I literally came in to a Dojo, where it was maybe my first month or my second month in before I was even wrestling, and I had like a whole business plan. And I was like, Hey, this is how we can make things better around here, like you could make more money, things could be more organized. And like I said, I'm such a dork in that way. But I think because in wrestling, paying your dues is something that you have to do. And I most certainly hadn't, you know, earned my stripes at that point. You know, I took my time to do that. And I've worked very hard while I am here, in order to kind of say, like, I understand wrestling is so different than any other business. So, people say, Oh, well, you know, and no other business would run without HR. Wrestling is unlike any other business in the world. There is literally nothing like it that I have personally experienced. And I've worked in the entertainment industry and other fields. So, I'm to come into wrestling and to find just exactly how human resources can fit and, and should fit has been a really interesting journey. And I think it took the speaking out movement for people to be able to be receptive to it. So that. And I think also, you know, and it's a funny thing to say, but having the pandemic where everybody had to slow down, everybody had to shut down, you know, people can't run shows, they're not over run by that every day, you know, I'm out here, I'm working, I'm grinding, because most wrestling companies will tell you, they're held together by a string in a dream. And everybody's just trying to get it, you know, get it by everybody loves people that are in wrestling. They get it by, like on the love of it. Um, you know, so that gets trying to get that little bit of profit margin out where you can, you do and so you end up sacrificing things like administration. And you end up you know, foregoing those things, and they really were never there in the first place, unless you have a huge company, like a WWE. And even in a huge company like that, they might have a human resources department, but that's maybe not the way the thing should be. You care not just about things as far as things inequality for minorities, but, sexual allegations and injuries and you know, all of you know, working through injuries, when people should know all kinds of stuff like that has gone on and has been really like, really, really in the Wrestling World. And everybody's like, so shocked. They're like, how could this still go on? And when I tell you, when you are in this business, there is just such a love for what we do. And once you get the bug for it, it's just, you know, it's thrilling in a way that nothing else is. So, you know, people want to keep going, and you kind of do. I found myself turning, you know, turning the other cheek, turning my head the other way to things, even kind of falling into the culture myself. And so that's one of the things when I do talk to wrestlers about sexual harassment, I say, you know, that was something, I did it. Like, I'm guilty of doing it myself, because one of the things you know, girls always joke about is the, you know, the unwanted dick pics. They're going to come, you know, people tell you like when you get in wrestling, this is going to happen to you and people are going to send it and it's not just that because cosplay is definitely something where that is pretty common as well. But, you know, my solution was fight fire with fire. So, if I was going to get somebody who's going to send me one of those, you know what, I was going to send them the picture of the last guy that sent one to me. Because, you know, it is it's like kind of like a cute, funny creative way to feel like you got revenge. But you know, when I really looked at it, I was like, you know, I'm really just kind of like, instead of doing something to make things better, I'm just kind of perpetuating the culture. So, um, you know, it took that kind of step back and looking at my own behavior too. Because they think we all you know, as girls in wrestling, you know, you have to be really tough to be in wrestling. Girls, guys, everybody. And I think you know, as women like Well, the things that goes on this like, again, for the culture is that girls are not very good wrestlers and you'll hear that all the time. So, you spend a lot of your time trying to be one of the boys. And, you know, I may sit on the fence about a lot of those issues where it's like, well, should there you know, how much safe space should there be? And, you know, what is safe space and all of that. And that's stuff that we're all really kind of like working through and finding right now. And you know, what the lines are and what to do and what not to do. And it's just, you know, it's kind of all very new for everybody.
 
Rob: And the women. I will say this, lots of comment on here. First of all, is there anything you don't do, I'm like clapping my hands right now. You do a little bit of everything. That's amazing. And women's wrestling right now is on top. The women are really killing it. That's just my opinion. But speaking of women that are killing it, let's turn over to Miss Marissa Cohen.
 
Marissa: So, I first of all, I love your spirit. So thank you for being you. And thank you for being an advocate and an HR rep and for doing the sensitivity training and the sexual harassment training and trying to make a difference. I do have to comment on the most creative way to combat dick pics. And I have to admit that I've done similar things to people. Yeah, so story. Short story. On the day of my last book launch. Some guy hit me up on Instagram, who I did not know he asked me if I was into trades, and now me, naive me was like, I don't know what that means. And I got a dick pic. So, what did I do? I went on unnamed porn site screen-shotted sent dick pic. I was like, I mean, how, first of all, like you, if you're reaching out to me on the day of my book launch, you clearly know what book I am promoting. Right. And then, you know, I like I was mad. But I mean, that was a really it was it made me feel good. So yeah, I hear you.
 
Jen: And that's it. Yeah, it's crazy, right? That as you're like, Oh, good. It’s very vindicating. Because you feel like at least you got to get that you know, something back.
 
Marissa: But the worst part of all of it is people don't send dick pics because of sexual urges. They send it because of control and shock value. Right? So, if somebody sends you a dick pic, it's not because they're like, “Oh, I think she'll be really into me. Yeah, if she sees my dick.” It's, it's, I want to make her feel as uncomfortable as possible. How do I do that very quickly. You know. And I think that, that culture being, you know, not okay, but like tolerated in any industry is really, really toxic, and really, really unhealthy. And that is like the first thing that needs to go, because that element of control is the gateway to sexual harassment.
 
Jen: It is and is a crazy thing, that's my, my big crazy thing with wrestling and, you know, I'm really like, taking time to explore is that a lot of wrestling, not just in the ring, but it's certainly outside the ring as well. A lot of it is about control and there's a lot of funny situations that you find yourself in. So, you know, the wrestling match itself is a bout of control, who's in power, who's on top, who is losing, who's winning. That's control right there. You know, and so that that's like a thing that's all about control. And then you also find yourself in these funny situations with promoters, because everybody is an independent contractor. So you are, you know, you're negotiating your own pay. And that's like a little, you know, control bout that you're having with the, you know, the person that's the promoter. And there's a lot of amazing promoters out there that take care of you and just give you the rate that you asked for. And then there's some people that want to kind of nickel and dime you. And that's a little control game. So, there's a lot of those little pieces of control that are all over wrestling, where you kind of find that all over and if you can kind of like spot it when it's happening. And that's when you want to help especially, you know, young people, not just young women in wrestling, but like all young people in wrestling that don't have a ton of life experience out in the world. So that you kind of know what's going on in those situations when you find yourself where somebody is trying to control you or manipulate you. And you can say take a minute stop and say hey, what's really going on here? And let me not just like have my emotions rule this situation or have their emotions rule the situation. But go ahead and you know, figure out what's really going on?
 
Marissa: Absolutely. And I think that's a huge benefit of having HR and HR experience, right? So, you as HR for your company can look out for the younger guy, younger people and have their back so when promoters try and nickel and dime them you can say no, no, that's not what you agreed on. Or when somebody is harassing somebody, you can step in — or HR somewhere can step in and stop it right there.
 
Jen: Even I'm so sorry to interrupt or just say even just giving people the tools that they need the tools that they need. So, we do like peer mediation is something we've been training with a little bit here. So that people kind of understand in the moment of a conversation, so that they can stop and recognize. And sensitivity training is big on that, too. So, you can kind of stop and recognize like what's going on, rather than just kind of like feeling the feelings.
 
Marissa: Right. I think that's amazing. So, keep doing what you're doing.
 
Jen: Thank you. And I think one of the other funny, when we were talking about funny situations, too, that you find yourself in, in wrestling, that makes like, a lot of the sexual harassment situations really weird is that like, you're going to be in a situation every time you're wrestling where somebody’s crotch is in your face, or your face is in their crotch. Or you're picking them up by their crotch, like, so there's a lot of that. And I think as human beings, we deal with those uncomfortable situations with humor. And I think that's, like, perfectly natural. But the balance is like, where do we find… where is you know, what's funny, what's not funny? What's humor? To who? And it's all different to every person?
 
Marissa: Absolutely. But I think that's the power of consent, right? The power of consent and communication. But you guys work mainly off of body language. I imagine I mean; I've never wrestled in a ring with anyone. But I can imagine that there's a body language communication there. So, you know what, or you can anticipate what's going to happen? And tell me if I'm wrong, stop me if I'm wrong.
 
Jen: No, you're not wrong at all.
 
Marissa: Okay. So why can't, why can't we translate that body language in the ring to verbal communication outside the ring, you know, being able to read somebody's body language, or say what you just did or said, makes me uncomfortable, and I don't like that.
 
Jen: And that just has to become a practice. And that's something that you know, we're working, we're certainly working on here at CCW Dojo, at the academy here. You know, just people being comfortable being uncomfortable. You know, if we can wrestle around in the, you know, 100 degree heat, and we can sweat on each other, then we can certainly say when we feel uncomfortable to each other. And it's just a matter of practice, just like anything else. You get better at it and it gets easier, the more that you do it, the first bunch of times, you're in the wrestling ring, even coming back from us being off for quarantine for three months, you take those first couple of bumps in the ring, and the next day you wake up and you are so sore, and it hurts so bad. So the first time you have that really uncomfortable conversation, where you tell somebody that's been making you uncomfortable, every time they you know, they look at you and you know, you come out in your gear, or they make a comment every time, you know, you do a move in the ring. You know, when you finally you kind of rip that band aid off, and you're like, you know what it really, you know, like, it really makes me uncomfortable when you do this, or I preferred if you'd not do it or you prefer it, if you compliment me in this way, instead of that way. It's real cringy. It's real painful to do it the first couple of times. But you know, we've all come together here to say that we're going to have a supportive environment for one another. And we did that by outlining a code of conduct and going through it with everyone and having everyone sign off on it. So that we can all be committed to having a good environment here and supporting each other, and getting, you know, getting through those uncomfortable situations until we're all comfortable being uncomfortable.
 
Rob: Wow, really well said and something we have asked pretty much everyone we've had on during this series, I want to hear your thoughts on this. We talked about apparently, it's common for there not to be a locker room or a shared locker room. We also addressed you know a lot of these big cons that we've had, you know, obviously before all this COVID stuff, where the indie talent would have to go pick up the big names. And that's where a lot of these speaking out stories came from, that we see on Twitter and such. Your kind of thoughts on the shared locker rooms and these airport pickups and maybe some things we could do to change that.
 
Jen: And it's interesting because I also come from, I have a theatre background from when I was younger as well. So, I think we have those, you know, those shared co-ed locker rooms is something that I've been around for a really, really long time. And it's one of those things to just to me like it doesn't phase me. And I think that there is now going to be a possibility in indie wrestling anytime in the very near future where we can see widespread separate locker rooms because they think when you had Risa on here, she was talking about having, how difficult it is to have separated locker rooms because you have co-ed matches, oftentimes. And I've experienced that myself, because, you know, sometimes you'll have a match and there'll be guys that need to be involved but you're in the women's locker room. You know, when a company has done their best to you know, make a safe space for everybody so that we wouldn't run into issues. But I think the issue is not, the solution to the problem is not to separate people, it's to bring people together. So, it's not to say that everybody should always have a shared locker room, but it's to say that we should all change our culture, which takes time, and we all need to have patience with. So that the we can exist in the same space and not be shitty to each other. You know, is it can't always be about separation? Because that's just kind of, you know, in a way ignoring the problem. In a perfect world. Yes, um, you know, you're saying like, Oh, we should have men's locker rooms and women's locker rooms, and then maybe a separate place where we can all meet together? Well, what about people that are transgender? There's lots of people that are in the Wrestling World, and certainly more all the time about, you know, fall into somewhere in between. Where are they? Where do they, and this is something they have to deal with in their everyday lives. But you know, in wrestling, where people are a little bit more gritty, is that how do we make those people feel comfortable? How do we make them feel welcome, and where do they go, and usually, it's just, you know, that's their life, and they've lived that, so they go where they're most comfortable. But like I said, I think for us is just a work in changing the culture so that we can all be together, and just be good to one another. And I don't expect it to happen overnight. It’s a culture. The wrestling culture has been, what it is, in some form or another for over 100 years. So, for me to, as one, you know, one lady to come in here and take, I'm going to change it all overnight is a little silly. But I think, you know, I can at least, you know, a lot of people came out, and they spoke out and they told their stories. And that sparked other people to say, Hey, we don't need to take this, let's all get together and be better.
 
Marissa: But now, it's about doing something to promote that change. So, what do you think we can do to really promote that change of culture?
 
Jen: For me, I think is certainly, you know, I know that I can affect it on an academy level on a school level, because you're getting people that are coming into the business. So, I think that's I wanted to start at the foundation. So that's where I have chosen to start within my organization, and really restructure it there. And I know other people, you know, other companies that I've worked for, Titan Championship Wrestling, they also have taken steps to make sure that they're treating their training their people, they’re training their talent on sexual harassment, because there are some people that have been in wrestling since they were, you know, they come people come to wrestling, because they have bad homes. And they've been in wrestling, since they were maybe 13, or 14, and no one ever told them, what was the right way to act, and what was the wrong way to act. And all they have to go on is what they see. And then the other thing that happens is, sometimes you'll have a show, and there's literally three generations of people, which is so cool. There are three generations of people on one show. Like, That's amazing. But what is the divide? And how can we expect everybody to have the same values, because they don't come from the same homes, they don't come from the same generation, they don't, they didn't go to the same church, they didn't grow up the same way. So why on earth could we expect them to all come together and just, it should just work out, Right? Unless we tell them, it's our job, you know, as people that are part of administrations, and, you know, part of companies, just as it isn't a business, it's our job to educate people to tell them when you are here, this is how we expect you to act. And, yeah, I think anyone just expecting someone to behave in the way that they would just want to behave is crazy. You know, you've talked about a bull in a china shop. You wouldn't expect the bull to come in there and, you know, actually play and not knock anything over. So, in that sense, you know, like I said, it's our job to educate, it's our job to say, this is what's right, this is what's wrong. And it is painfully basic, in a lot of ways, but then you can go back and hold people accountable. And it is about getting signatures. It is about saying, here's the code of conduct. And we literally go over it every class. So some people that are at classes five times a week, they hear it over and over and over again. But you know, what, they know what it is already. So, you know, it's getting those signatures and then holding each other accountable. And then having you know, we have all kinds of things in place, we have a school form that you can fill out anonymously or non-anonymously, and submit so that it comes in and if you have an issue, that issue will be handled immediately. Um, and you know, like I said, we have the Code of Conduct everyone signs off on that. We have the sexual harassment training that we've already started. And then the sensitivity training that we're going to be doing as well. And having those trainings and saying, this is what it is, this is what we expect. And when people don't live up to it, it's a matter of holding them accountable, which is tough for promoters to do. Because let's say you have your top guy, and he's in your storyline. And, you know, this is what you're riding on, this is what your draw is where the people are coming to see. And all of a sudden, this guy does something horrible, or we find out something horrible about him. They're not so prone to just like, throw this guy to the wind, because everything's riding on this guy. But we have to get to a point, because in some senses, wrestling is one of the only businesses where you can do that. You know, because stories change the they always they have the same card subject to change. So, people need to get comfortable promoters in particular, that that can happen. And that I think they have because you really saw how many people when speaking out happened, lost positions. They lost their jobs, whether they were held accountable, literally by society.
 
Rob: Very well said and, you know, especially in wrestling, like you're right, you can't scrap storylines, because like, who was the anonymous brand General Manager, you know, what I'm saying?  I digress. But that's a really good point and on a serious note, you know, you mentioned, you know, you have all these different generations. I'm all about, you know, promoting the talent, getting them, you know, as much as I can, you know, to put them over, as we say, in the business here. And we talked to a lot of younger talent, we're very high on a lot of these younger talents, that, quite frankly, I think are going to go very, very far. We're going to see them on TV and no time. But I do worry, especially when I see all this stuff about them. What's your kind of thought, on protecting these younger talents? What's the future look like for these guys right now,
 
Jen: I like I was saying earlier, it's all about education with them. I, you know, I always have this, I have this picture. And I wish that I had it for you guys. And I have to have to locate it. But it's a picture of me as a baby. And it's really shocking. It's really shocking, because my grandmother is holding me next to my mother in a hospital bed, I'm a newborn, and my grandmother has a cigarette in her hands. And you're like, Oh, my God, you get thrown out of a hospital today, if that happens, you know, you would literally get ejected from the hospital. But that was social norms, then. We have to help our young people understand that some people that are in the older generations have these different values, because life was different when they were younger. And we have to find ways to hold people accountable. Without I think, just burying everybody immediately. So that we can all continue to have a better culture. Because you can't just wipe the slate clean of all of the people that came before you because so much of wrestling is about tradition. And so much of wrestling is about you know, those who came before you passing the torch down to the next generation. That's so important. And it's such a cool thing to me about wrestling. But we just have to get, like I said, young people, it's just, it's education and communication. Anything for young people today have a tough time. Because they think I'm in the middle of the different generations that I see currently in wrestling. But I think people that are younger that come in, they really have a difficult time expressing their feelings. I'm aware, you know, I think people that are in the older generation, tend to just say their feelings, regardless of how it's going to affect anyone else. So, I like there is a middle ground that we can all meet in here.
 
Marissa: That comes with comfort, right? So, if you have if you're a veteran, and you have this pedestal, or you have a platform, I feel like you're more confident in that and you are more likely to speak out about what's happening. But if you're new, I mean, your reputation is riding on this on this situation. And you can either blackball yourself or you can, you know, actually have a career or a chance at a career. And I think that's really where the disconnect is, in my very, very humble opinion.
 
Jen: Yes, no, I think you really hit the nail on the head there. And one of the things that we've put in place here at the CCW Academy is we've done we've done like a two-layer system. So, we have a mentor — trainer. That is a person that's a trainer, one of the trainers that we have here is assigned to every new student. They have a vested interest in their development. They're like one-on-one, they get a one-on-one meeting every month. You know, and they are that person's person to go to. And if it's not working out, it can be reevaluated and they can be switched to another trainer. We also pair everybody up, That's new, with a buddy. So, they have an elder student that's here that's kind of like you know, already knows the ropes and everything else. So that this person is going to be properly integrated into our culture that we have here. So, if they're messing up, because you know, if you don't know that you're messing up, you know, somebody's going to tell you you're messing up, you know, or you're not doing the right thing, you're not doing your ring crew duties or, you know, whatever it is, you might be doing, somebody's going to be there to tell you. So that's what we're trying to get this kind of like twofold mentorship in place, so that everybody that comes in, that's new always feels like there's someone to go to, because they think that that was, you know, my personal experience, certainly in, you know, the first school that I went to, I felt really alone and like afraid all the time, I didn't know what was going on, or what was happening. And then I came to CCW and I was very, very accepted here. And, and I was really given, you know, so much creative freedom to do all kinds of different things that I've been hearing, which was awesome. But I think as a student experience, people really need to feel made at home. And they need to feel like they're a part of what's going on. And I think that's a big part of creating a safe environment. You need to know that you belong, and what is okay and what is not okay. And you need that kind of person on a, you know, on a tutor level, who is, you know, here and is in charge who is a trainer. And then you also need that person that's like, Hey, this is my buddy, this is my peer. This is a person who am eye-to-eye with that's helping me out.
 
Marissa: That's an awesome system.
 
Rob: I just wanted to chime in here. I'm curious. Obviously, no stranger to inter-gender matches, no stranger to rolling with guys in a faction. Behind the scenes, I've been behind the curtain from a journalistic perspective, you know, where we shake everyone's hand everyone's brother, sister, we see all that respect. You know, not to go into detail or not to name names or not trying to make you say anything. But I'm just curious, you know, very obviously very powerful woman in the ring and outside the ring. I'm curious, like, what your experience was, like, you know, going through this Wrestling World, that's such a wacky circus. Was it mostly positive? Did you encounter some, like negative experiences where people tried to take advantage of you one way or another?
 
Jen: So, I’ve definitely had, have had experiences on both sides of the fence. I would say, you know, I've just been always fortunate enough to be a self-aware human, that I knew that when I was younger, and I saw things in wrestling that weren't good. I said, hey, that's not for me now. And that when I got into it, you know, I thought, like, Hey, I'm older than all these people, and I know better. And none of this stuff is going to happen to me. And, you know, lo and behold, they're still situations that I did find myself in. But I think, you know, everything that happens to you in life can be looked at, you know, as a, you know, you can hold on to your anger, you can look at it as a learning situation. And that's really what I did. I was like, hey, you know, what's going on? Here's not for me, I'm going to go look at things in other places. Because I knew that I loved wrestling more than I disliked shitty people. So, you know, I was able to take them. Like I said, I was so amazed because they think I came to I was afraid to come to CCW, because they had a terrible reputation. And they did like the around in, you know, the circle of wrestling there, Oh, don't go over there. Bad things are going to happen. And I came here and I had nothing but positive experiences. Like I said, I was given such a platform to just creatively like, do, if I worked really hard at what I was doing, no matter what I was doing, I was given the creative freedom to do it. So, I've been able to be here in so many different capacities and do so many different things. It's been just so, so amazing. And I've been so thankful, like so, so thankful for the experience. And I found people that have really kind of taken me under their wing, and taking care of me along the way. But do I think, you know, like, I still felt that way. And I think that's just me as a person saying, like, Hey, I feel like an outcast because I'm, you know, here I am, you know, in my late 30s and then I'm, you know, in the ring with people who are 16-17 years old. And you're like, what am I doing here? At some point, this is weird. This is uncomfortable. Is this right? Should I be doing this with my life right now? But everybody always was so patient with me here and everybody was always so kind to me here. And, you know, I when I came, I was here I was coming off an injury, I made a really bad break that had hardware in it, and it took me a long, long time to get where it needed to be in the ring. And you know, there's I still, I still have a long way to go. I feel like um, but every, like I said, everyone here all of the people that were in my classes were always so good to me and so helpful to me that it was just like, I'm always so forever grateful. And I tell them all the time, probably to the point where they're really annoyed by it.
 
Rob: Absolutely. And, you know, like you said, like, wrestling has been so good to you. It's been so good to me, as well, you know, I just made these great connections with people. And by the way, the answer is, yes, you should be doing this because you're absolutely killing it. But I digress. You know, it's just been so positive. So, when I hear this stuff, it really breaks my heart. And this is the stuff that I don't see. So, it's really, really crazy. I do want to throw a quote at you. Marissa help me with this one. Was its Linda, who has said it on the show? What’s the quote, Marissa, about the trust in the ring.
 
Marissa: We have to trust our bodies with these people in the ring, but we can't trust them with our bodies outside the ring.
 
Jen: Yes, I love that quote so much. You know, and then there's another one that is a good one too, is that, you know, everybody has a mother or a sister or a daughter. And you know, you don't you don't want them you wouldn't want them treated this way. Don't treat somebody else that that woman that you're looking at. That person that you're looking at, is somebody you know, is somebody's sibling; Is somebody whose family care for each other. Like we're such a little, you know, in a way we all you know, we joke around and call each other Carnie’s all the time. But like we are this little Carnie family that puts the show together. And what we do is so magical. It's like I always equate it to raising a barn. Like everybody needs brings their particular skills. And you know, we all do this crazy thing. So that we can put on a show. It's literally like, the fact that human beings can do this and build a ring. Every time there's a show, we build a ring from the ground up. That's amazing. We can come together and do that. We can come together and build a ring; we can come together and trust each other and throw each other around and punch each other in the face. We can do all those things and do them as safely as possible. Why can't we do these other things? I know that we can. And that's the thing that seems silly to me. It's like it's if obviously if we can cooperate in this way, we can also cooperate and the other way.
 
Rob: Very well said and I guess we touched on this a little bit already. But just any you know, any advice I guess, especially for these, you know, younger up and coming talents.
 
Jen: I know, it's just really you know, when you're going into wrestling schools, make sure that you're checking out not just the kind of shiny things. Like not just the people that came out of the school, like not how successful, not how many people came out of that school went to WWE. Find out what's going on, like we just added here, you know, we added our trainers, we have it in a female trainer, we added in a Ref. So, we have ADD trainers, like, oh my God, they are everything. And they have also been like, really just amazing to me as Gabby has too. But find out, Are there trainers at that school that you can identify with? You know, are there people that are going to treat you like a human being, and don't give anybody your money. Like, definitely, you know, wrestling training is a lot of hard work for people who are trainers. So, make sure that you are giving money to people, don't take free rides from anyone, because you will pay for it in one way or another. And make sure that you know, like I said, get what you're paying for and give as much into it, you'll be so surprised as what like what you get out of it. And I mean, I would give that advice for anything in life to anyone but particularly for young people, the harder that you work, the more people that you touch, the more you'll get out of it. I tell people all the time that wrestling is my master my master work in life, I bring all my talents together. And I put it into wrestling. And every time I'm in that ring it gives back to me.
 
Rob: Yeah, I’ll say. That's it for me mercy, you got anything before we get out of here?
 
Marissa: No, I'm just so happy that you're making such an impact on the Wrestling World. And I don't even think you see the scope of it yet. And if you do, then that's amazing. But if you don't, you are starting a revolution. And I'm so excited to watch. And hopefully other people will catch on and come to you to do the same thing in their organization. So, thank you.
 
Jen: I would definitely like I said couldn't do it alone, like Gabby Gilbert and the rep they have all stepped up to help me not just to come as trainers and give their knowledge and you know, come to the aid of these students that we already have, and to new students that we hope you'll come and join us. But they've also been great with me helping to give administrative work, structure, class curriculum, so that people can really come here. Young people, old people, any kinds of people can come here and have a comprehensive school experience. We're really excited. You know, like I said, we have our new facilities that we're getting up and running. We're just kind of like crossing our fingers until COVID has passed so that we can get our class numbers back up. But in the meantime, we've got these small classes where we're working on changing the culture, just one person at a time. And it's been it's been really great so far.
 
Marissa: That's amazing.
 
Rob: Absolutely. All you guys are going to get signed, by the way, one of the best tag teams on the planet right now. I mean, I'm telling you right now. But anyway, instead of being a major mark here, let's get some shameless promo out of the way. We're all about it. Now we can be on a fan level or on a professional level here. You know, obviously, working with CCW, how can people contact you on a professional level or follow you on a fan level?
 
Jen: Um, if you want to reach out to this school, you can reach out to CCWtrainers@gmail.com. You can ask us any questions that you have about the school. The trainers will get right back to you. You can also come and check out our school we are located in Blackwood, New Jersey. You can email us for more of that. For me also on a professional level, you can find me on LinkedIn Jen Casale PHR. And you can see all of the fun and fabulous work history there, which is the boring stuff. Or you can also check out my Facebook. You know, I'm Jen Casale, as well on Facebook, so you can check me out there.
 
Rob: Awesome. Super cool. And Jen, thank you so much. You know, obviously a fan for a long time. But you've definitely earned my respect and just thank you so much for coming on the show. And, you know, just opening up and telling everyone what you had to say. I super appreciate it.
 
Jen: Thank you. I hope I didn't chew your guy's ear off too much. I appreciate your time as well.
 
Rob: That's fantastic. And guys, you know, everyone who's listening right now, like I always say stay safe, stay positive, take care of each other. We're out. Peace.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Healing From Emotional Abuse: MST Military Sexual Trauma Movement: with Ret. Lt. COL. Jeffrey Rector

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to breaking through our silence. Today I want to welcome Lieutenant Colonel Jeff Rector, of the US Air Force and the Air National Guard. He's a former SARC and has worked with survivors of MST military sexual trauma. He also feels that he's been retaliated against for supporting those survivors. We both feel strongly that the abuse of power in the military is dangerous to the readiness of our troops, and the mental health of the people that enlist. Thank you so much for being here. Jeff, I'm so excited to have you.
 
Jeff: Thank you, Marisa, it's my pleasure to be a part of your podcast. This is great
 
Marissa: Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that. So, would you mind telling us a little bit about what you did as a SARC?
 
Jeff: Sure, sure, I was a Sexual Assault Response Coordinator for my Air National Guard unit from 2011 to about 2015. As a Sexual Assault Response coordinator, or SARC, I obviously take care of the health and well being of those who feel that they were assaulted or report sexual assault in the military, MST. It is a very tough position based on some of the things you encounter both as a SARC and some of the things you have to do for these survivors. I was passionate about my position as a SARC. I had been in the military at that time for about 29 years, both enlisted and then an officer And I felt that taking care of those folks that get the mission done was paramount. When I was a SARC, for the first few years, obviously, it's a pretty heavy and a pretty steep learning curve and training curve, because coming out of other different military specialties and going into the SARC position, it's not something you can train for right out of a book. You have some good, some good training that's provided to you by civilian training authorities. And then you go through a very rigorous certification process that finds you certified to be that Sexual Assault Response coordinator or victim advocate for these folks. So, it is pretty thorough. You're always learning. And I think that's important to note when you're a SARC because it's not the same every time when you're dealing with someone that survives a sexual assault. In my five years of the SARC and being a member of the Air National Guard in our home unit, obviously I was well known by many. And the first year as a SARC, it was difficult because, you know, it's a trust thing being a SARC. Being a victim advocate. It’s a complete trust of the other person doing the reporting. So, if somebody does experience of sexual assault, or even a harassment, charge, if you will, they come to you for guidance. They come to you because they trust you. They come to you because they feel that hopefully their story will be heard. And whether it's accurate, or true, or however you want to call it, it is a trust thing. And I feel that with that position comes huge responsibility because you're also helping that survivor cope with whatever MST trauma they may have experienced. My first year or so I learned how to be a SARC, how to listen attentively, and to talk to folks about the program, about MST sexual assault military. The SARC program, or the sexual assault program didn't get a lot of attention until probably the mid to late 2005 to 2009. And then it really started to get a lot of attention at high levels, leadership levels. Which made it mandatory That all members of the military had an annual sexual assault prevention, response training, identification. They were all identified as a person, that if you see something, say something. Report assault, report sexual assault. So the program was really getting a lot of attention. And I believe it was for the right reasons, because there were many sexual assaults in the military and it did need to be addressed. What happened in my organization is I saw leadership, promoting the program. Every April was Sexual Assault Awareness Month. And as I felt that they were putting the right attention on it and making steps toward addressing sexual assault and making sure that people knew the right way to report these assaults. I then notice that when the assaults were reported, things started to change a little bit because as my position evolved, and I put three new victim advocates into place and those folks had a very good awareness of the organization, people started coming forward and started reporting situations that may have been sexual harassment or even sexual assault. And as you know, per the regulation, the only folks that can receive a sexual assault report would be medical or chaplain staff and or a SARC or a victim advocate. It's a very close group when it comes to reporting because you want to protect the identity of the survivor and even the perpetrator. We want to make sure that we have all our facts to go forward with the assault claim. So again, we had reports that were happening in our organization And I believe that was because members inside organization trusted us to tell us this information. And that's a big thing. That's the key point when it comes to the SARC program. When our organization leadership started to see that there were reports increasing, I think they got a little nervous because, you know, as a command, they always say, oh, that doesn't happen in my organization, or that can't happen in my organization. I know my people. I know my people. Said, well, it doesn't happen. Well, that's a lie, it does happen. And when you have people in key leadership roles that promote the program, and they want folks to report it to those in the SARC SAPR or victim advocacy program, they're going to report it. And when they do, it's our job to take care of them. So, what was happening is the reports were coming in, we had to identify and address all of them and process all of them per the regulation for the guidance. And as you know, in the military, the numbers have increased. Sexual assaults have increased, even though they've said that they're addressing the problem. I personally don't feel they're addressing the problem; I feel that they're washing over the problem. And they're making sure that they check the block every April and put it as a sexual assault prevention and Awareness Month. But in my experience, both professionally, personally, and in my role of the SARC, I do not think they are addressing the problem.
 
Marissa: I 100% agree with you. I think similar to their suicide program that they have, it's all just kind of a cover your ass, check the box situation, because these programs haven't been updated. And I sat in when I worked at the 416th TEC, I sat in on one of the SARC programs, and everyone walked out laughing because they said, you know, don't touch somebody's butt. And it was just it was made into a big joke. So, it looks like via the paperwork, that they're actually doing the work to prevent and create awareness and keep their military members safe. But truly, they couldn't care less. As long as their boxes checked, they don't care.
 
Jeff: And as long as leadership, as you know, in the military as long as leadership looks to their annual officer performance reports or OER in the Army, or OPR in the Air Force, the commander, as they're writing his or her OPR, that commander wants that bullet on there. It says, you know, achieved 100% training in the sexual assault prevention Response Program. That's what they want. They don't want to have: Two sexual assaults were reported while this person was commander. Okay, that's not a good bullet to have on your OPR. So, you are correct. They do check the block, and they do move forward. And they do not want the negativities just show because that means that under their command, which they're supposed to do as officers, is command — good and or the bad, take responsibility for your folks and protect them, and make sure they trust you. So, if you have two or three sexual assault reports, it doesn't go on their OPR. It really doesn't go anywhere. It stays within the database, and it gets looked at by hire headquarters. And they choose whether or not they want to say they were assaults. They say, “Well, that probably didn't meet the requirement of the sexual assault, we're going to put that as maybe harassment. And maybe lecture or counsel the individual involved.” Meanwhile, the survivor has been told by people like ourselves, SARCs, SAPR, and/or victim advocates, that we're going to help them. We're going to take care of them. There's programs in place to help them. Now they've reported the assault, whether it's a restricted record or unrestricted report. But people know when you report an assault, because now you have that target on your back. I will not go out and say this person reported an assault. However, there is some attention that's paid to the person that does report this. If you think about where your sexual assault prevention response offices are, especially in, in my experience as a SARC in the Air National Guard, my office was right next to the Wing Commander, which is the leader of the base. So, we are sitting there behind major glass windows in the big Palace of the leadership command element. And I'm sitting next to them and all of a sudden, what do you think's going to happen if a male or female comes in my office crying? You know, in front of all of leadership? Do you really think they're not going to say, “Hey, off the record, what was going on with that person? Or why were they in your office upset?” Well, obviously, they might have been reporting something that was, you know, in the sexual assault realm, but we don't know. And I'm not supposed to tell them that until we do the report, and file the proper paperwork. You don't divulge the name of that survivor until they choose if it's going to be a restricted or unrestricted Report.
 
Marissa: I'm glad that you brought that up where the offices were located and the layout of the building, because I've heard from other people as well, who are SARCs for the Navy and from other branches of military that everyone knows who the SARC is, right?  You are a widely known position — posters everywhere. And so, for someone to go to your office, it's almost like making an unrestricted report regardless. Because even if I was just going into your office to have lunch or have a conversation or something, everyone would automatically assume, she's going to report an assault, you know, and it just automatically puts a target on your back whether you make a report or not. And that's unsafe. I personally think that's something that needs to change as well.
 
Jeff: And they did. Well, the Air National Guard did address that and they did make some of the sexual assault prevention response people non-military, so they did a Title 5 resource for those people. That means, they're non-military status, they don't report to military leadership. So there was an attempt to relax the system a little bit to show that well, you know, even though me, as Lieutenant Colonel Rector, reports to Colonel so and so my OPR has a bullet on it that said, you know, the SARC of the organization was able to train 100% of the people in record time, or had a great program in place, and only four reported incidents for the last year. I'm making that up, obviously. But my OPR is signed by the guy or girl that's in charge of the organization. So, if I choose to start reporting all of these sexual assaults, he's going to come here or she's going to say, “You know, are these really accurate? What are you doing? Let's look at this program a little deeper, because all of a sudden, all these people are coming forward.” Well, it's real, it does happen. But like I said, in my position, people trusted me. So, they came forward. And in fact, I had two or three reports. And I had commanders that said, hey, we've Lt. Col Rector, he's our SARC. If anybody can help you, it's him. He will do the job for you. Okay, that's what they would say. But then, later on down the road, as I experienced, the Wing Commander, turned that around, and I feel was I was retaliated against for doing some of those, turning in some of those statistics. Doing my job, and helping those that are survivors of sexual assault or even harassment. I was even looked at to help out with the Equal Opportunity Program too. So, it's a fine line to walk as the SARC or as a victim advocate, because you're wearing two hats. It's a very important program, but will the command put that kind of emphasis on that program?
 
Marissa: So, let's talk a little bit about how the Commander and how the Wing Commander for the Air Force has a big say in whether these are actually investigated. You touched on how, you know, they can say, “Oh, well, was it really an assault? Or is it maybe a harassment or maybe they're not telling the truth or blah, blah, blah?” So, what happens? Why does the commander have that much power?
 
Jeff: Well, as you know, like I said earlier, the Commander in this situation is basically notified when there is an assault reported. There's no names associated with it. By regulation, I was told that I had to tell command within 24 hours that there had been an assault reported and we leave it at that. So, what happens is I, as the Wing SARC, would report to a higher headquarters, State Headquarters SARC — which was the Army and the Air Force SARC for the state. Okay. In Vermont. We would have monthly meetings where we would go over every case that was reported. And in that room were key people. There was the Chief of Staff of the unit. There was the Director of Psychological Health. There was a Medical Professional, all of the SARC’s where there. There may have been a victim advocate, Chaplaincy. Because we discussed the care of the survivors, if you will, and where the case was in the process. What I experienced sometimes is, as we talked about the new cases, leadership in the room, whether it be a One-Star General, or a Colonel would say something the fact that, you know, that really doesn't sound like an assault. Let's look at that a little deeper. And I would say, so what you're saying, sir, or Ma'am, is that you don't trust your soldier or airman because they reported what they felt was an assault. Okay? And they would sometimes answer, Yep, I think we need to look into a little deeper before we report that as an assault, I would like to look into that deeper. So, you can see right there to command has influence on how they're reported, and where or if they're reported as an assault. Because if it's not reported as an assault, it goes back down to a different channel where they can control the outcome of the survivor and or the perpetrator. And as you mentioned, in one of your other podcasts, the perpetrator doesn't normally get moved right away. Even if there's an assault that occurs or suspected assault. We, as a SARC or victim advocate have no jurisdiction to say that person needs to be removed. Unless it's reported to civilian authorities, which most of the time when the survivor — they’re very distraught — They don't know where to go. They just remember that, Oh, by the way, Lieutenant Colonel Jeff Rector is the SARC. I remember his picture. I'm going to call that number or I'm going to call the hotline. And then the SAPR hotline is going send the information to me, and I'm going to address it with the member. So, you can see where that disconnect can be. It can be very confusing as the process goes through and to get back to the original question. The command has the ultimate authority, whether they're going to say that was an assault or not, because may not look that good on their command record. Especially if they're going for their next promotion or their next assignment.
 
Marissa: That is a blatant abuse of power. Because think about it, they're manipulating the system to work in their favor. That's not okay.
 
Jeff: And its total command influence because of you're sitting across the table, whatever rank I'm wearing on my collar or my sleeve, I look across and I see somebody of higher rank, that may even have an influence on my next promotion or my next assignment. Am I going to challenge that person to that discussion? Probably not. It's almost Psy-Ops. When you see your reporting official across the table, and they're telling you don't do that, or don't report it that way. What are you going to say? No, sir, or No, ma'am. You're going to say Yes, sir.
 
Marissa: I think that that's such a bullshit way to do things. I mean, I know it's a bullshit way to do things. Because it's a manipulative, abusive relationship, right? I mean, it fits all the categories. They're manipulating the system, they're gaslighting you to think that what you're saying isn't true. And they're holding your promotion over your head. That’s…
 
Jeff: It's abuse of power. It's abuse of power. And the long and short of it is, you know, when I was in my position as a SARC, I had a long and distinguished career. I was actually nominated to go to what they call War College for a senior officer. And I was not an aviator. Normally, most of those positions, go to aviators for their performance report to make it look, you know, presentable for their next command. So, I was probably one of 150 officers in the Wing that was nominated go to, in residence War College as a non-rated officer. Which was a good feather in the cap. And I was doing a great job to get the programs going, get the programs running, making sure everybody he knew how to report. But then when the reports started coming in, I started to see that they probably weren't too happy that they're getting this many reports. As you saw, I think the Air Force put out most recently, they said that the sexual assault in the Air Force increased last year. Obviously, we're not fixing the problem. I mean, it's good that people feel comfortable to come forward and report an assault if it does happen. However, I would be interested to find out how many of those reported assaults, ended some sort of disciplinary action for the perpetrator Because you don't get that information. You didn't get the reports. Okay. Meanwhile, the survivor is still in the same organization, unlike the active-duty military, any National Guard unit, whether it's army or air inside the state, and the state like Vermont, which is so small, if there's somebody that was assaulted, how are you going to move them to a different organization and not have them be seen as that person, right? You can't just say, okay, you're going somewhere else, and we're going to move you and protect you. That doesn't happen in a small state like Vermont, because there's only one Air National Guard unit. So, it's not a thing, just move them across the road and say, Yeah, you're good, you're protected. I can't do that. So, we have to look out for the best interest of the survivor.
 
Marissa: The problem is, that's not what happens.
 
Jeff: Correct.
 
Marissa: As far as I'm aware, they either transfer the survivor somewhere else, or tell them to unfuck themselves and get over it. Or they wait a little while and then PCS as the perpetrator, which is disgusting, because they haven't been counseled, there's no repercussions for their actions. And they're going to go off to a new unit and do the same exact thing.
 
Jeff: Or what I like to say is write them off in the sunset. Because in my experience, I had a survivor come forward, a female survivor that had been assaulted by a senior officer in her chain of command. She came to me and reported it, she reported it as unrestricted. So, we had the full range of making sure everybody knew the individual that was named as a perpetrator was then removed from the base, put on administrative leave for a little while. We went through the process of reporting; we called in the National Guard Civ team that came up and did an investigation. Meanwhile, the senior officer was what they call in a mandatory separation date window, which means within so many months, they were going to be mandatorily retired if leadership did not take action to continue their service. And I made mention of this to leadership in our organization and said, Sir, this person is due to have a mandatory separation date, you know, 1 October, and its now June. We know how long these process takes. So, I would recommend that you put some sort of administrative hold on this person so they do not mandatory separate without any action. The leadership said, “Sure. We'll take that into advisement. We'll take that  into consideration.” Meanwhile, as you know, the process in the military is not fast. It took a while to get the process through the system that the report in, have a board. And then next thing, you know, there was a discrepancy found in the package. It came back for review, and then the perpetrator was allowed to retire without any kind of incident, because of separation date came up. So, things like this do happen. Leadership is well aware of how they can be will circumvent the system. Meanwhile, the survivor, what kind of support does the survivor get other than a letter, a letter that they made me write and say, we’re really sorry, there was a discrepancy in the package and this case is closed.
 
Marissa: Which puts the onus on you and not on the leadership abusing power. That's disgusting. And that builds systematic distrust of the SARC program. So, it's really, it's like shooting yourself in the foot as a SARC, because you want to advocate and you tell them, you're going to advocate and you're going to help and you're going to get this person penalized for their actions. And then you do everything right, follow the system, and it's shut down for probably like a missed comma, like something so small. And then you are the one held responsible for their actions and the perpetrators actions. And then people don't come to the SARC’s anymore. That's disgusting,
 
Jeff: Right. So, they all know that there's a process that takes place is a very well advertised what the process is when you report a sexual assault, and obviously, they know it takes time. We try to do you know, expedient, as quickly as we can. But we're at the mercy of the other part of the system to do their process. And again, like I said, these programs supposedly get a priority in the big picture, like the Air National Guard, or the Army National Guard or the Air Force. But if you look at the program itself, there are not enough people in the program to staff these types of situations. There are not enough teams that can go out to each organization and review the folder or have a board or; they just can't, it's not a way to do business. And I feel personally that this program should not be a military program, it should be managed by a civilian program. They should take these people that have been SARC’s, that have retired. SARC’s that have retired and become advocates. And they should form some sort of contracted division that can address sexual assault in the military directly. So, the person that's the survivor isn't scared to call that number and say, you know, can you help me? They don't know who that is on the other end, but they know they're trained. And we don't know as that team who this is and what their situation is. We just do the investigation and report it through the channels to command. That way, I don't feel that I'm going to be retaliated against for doing my job, and the survivor hopefully gets the comfort and care they need to proceed forward. And then justice is served through the military program.
 
Marissa: That's amazing. And I think that you and I and Never Alone are really going to make a huge difference for survivors of MST military sexual trauma.
 
Jeff: I think there's enough expertise, and enough enthusiasm in our group to make that happen as long as we're heard. And I think, why not take all the money and all the resources that we currently throw at sexual assault, are meant to respond to the military. So, you think about the SARC’s, the victim advocates and all the other people that are trained and certified via the advocacy networks out there, that's a civilian network that the government pays for them to train us, and we know that SARC’s don't stay in their position for more than probably three to four years. Me especially, as the executive officer, only stayed there for four years, and I was moved on. So, we had to train somebody else, certify somebody else. If you have a civilian coalition that can do these amenities programs, just budget accordingly and take the SARC’s and the victim advocates right out of the organization and let this coalition manage it.
 
Marissa: That's a really good idea. I really hope that this works out for us. I think that it could be really beneficial to a lot of people. What advice would you give as a former SARC to people that are still either afraid to come forward or still fighting for their freedom?
 
Jeff: It's a very traumatic event, and everybody deals with it differently. I think if I was to share my experiences into someone, or anyone guidance, trust the system, but always verify the steps you make. If you're going to file a sexual assault report, make sure you get copies of all documentation. You document every time — you keep a journal of when you did things or where you went and who you spoke to — Because that will pay huge dividends during the process. Because you're not always going to be speaking to somebody in your organization about this. You're going to end up talking to somebody at the office of complex investigations or someone outside, maybe even civilian authority. So, it's always good to keep some sort of written journal. Or have somebody that you trust as a wingman or a battle buddy, if you will, and have them keep the journal because it isn't a traumatic event. And you may not be able to keep this journal. But if you trust somebody else to help you through the program, get that person that can be your battle buddy or your wingman and help you through it.
 
Marissa: I love that! Is there anything else that you want to talk about that I missed?
 
Jeff: I think this is a great program that you're doing to highlight MST sexual assault in the military and make sure that survivors of sexual assault are treated the way they're supposed to be treated. Like human beings. And they're not treated like a number or a machine or some sort of person that can just be pushed aside, and not treated with human decency. You know, I think that's applause to you for doing this.
 
Marissa: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. And thank you for everything that you have done for survivors, as a SARC and as a human. But also the things that you're doing now, post all of that knowing what you know, helping MST military sexual trauma survivors heal. I really appreciate your work and your friendship.
 
Jeff: Well, thank you. And you, too.
 
Marissa: I really want quickly want to plug the book that you and I are working on together. It is another book in the Breaking Through the Silence series should be coming out later this year. And we'll come back on and give you some updates as it progresses. But if anyone listening is interested in participating as a survivor of MST and wants to contribute to this book, feel free to email me or message me on any social media. And we will make sure to have your voice be heard, Anonymous or not.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Healing From Emotional Abuse: Thunder Rosa on the Speak Out Movement: with BCP and Thunder Rosa

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Rob: Gentlemen, welcome back to a very special episode of the BCP / Healing From Emotional Abuse Podcast Connection as we continue to break through the Speak Out movement with my tag team partner multiple time Amazon award-winning Best-Selling Author, my good friend, Miss Marissa Cohen. Marissa, what's up over there? How you doing?
 
Marissa: Hi, I'm great. How are you?
 
Rob: I'm doing really, really good. You know, all things considered. You know, like we keep saying 2020. But Marissa, You've knocked it out of the park with this one. And I'm super hyped. Super honored right now. This is a big one guys. Right here. I am personally so honored to be speaking with easily one of the best in the world right now. The first ever Mexican born and current NWA Women's World Champion, Miss Thunder Rosa. Miss Thunder Rosa, how are you today?
Thunder Rosa: Thank you.
 
Marissa: We should add an Applause track.
 
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. I was going to roll my R’s, but I would really just fail it that miserably. But it really is an honor. Thunder Rosa, thank you so much for a few minutes of your time. First and foremost. 2020 has been crazy. How are you? How's the family? How's everyone making out in this 2020 COVID world right now?
 
Thunder Rosa: We're doing really well. I mean, we definitely use COVID as a launchpad for a lot of stuff. You know, we're really focused, and as you guys know, we revamped Mission Pro-Wrestling to make it mostly female staff and, and everybody in there because the work, you know, after the whole speak out. So we're working on that. I mean, it is really hard, because I have a tendency to like start things and not really have like, a plan for it or just like, go! Then we  just go from there. So yeah, we're working really hard.
 
Rob: Yeah, it's crazy. You know, I find it as like a creative and a journalist in the in the business like, now really is a good time to focus on our crafts in other ways. But I want to talk about you know, your reaction when we first saw this speak out movement, we've talked to a lot of indie talent. We've talked to a lot of promoters. We're so honored to have you here. When you saw this hashtag trending on Twitter, what was your immediate reaction or thoughts? Were you surprised?
 
Thunder Rosa: I was not surprised, actually. I was at first, for the first people that were, you know, talking about, I mean, had some I know I knew that person, but I didn't know them to that extent. So and then as soon as I started seeing, like the domino effect and where everybody started speaking now, I was like, I personally was like, I hope somebody, if they're, you know, speaking out on Twitter, I hope somebody goes to the authorities. I know it, you know, it's it's really hard and probably not going to do anything. But at least there's a record for men or women that have been harassed, to use this and take it to the next level. Right? In order for, you know, justice to happen. And unfortunately, not a lot of people did that.
 
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. It's very crazy. And I'll throw it over to Marissa. Marissa is all about breaking through the silence And speaking of somersault, throw it over to you if you have some questions.
 
Marissa: Sure. So I really appreciate you saying that, you know, giving you're giving your not blessing but giving your you know, I guess permission to encourage women to speak out and men and any survivor to speak out. I think that that's really important to hear, especially from people like you who have a platform and have a name. So have you ever experienced anything throughout your wrestling career that was inappropriate or abusive?
 
Thunder Rosa: Man, if I was to, like, name some names, and if I was to sing some stuff, you know, it's just like, I would be here all day, have a conversation with you, honestly. I decided to, you know, if, when I have some of the some of these issues to like, deal with and personally, I have a very supportive husband, who is actually has seen most of this stuff online. I've seen a lot of the comments, you know, pictures, all that kind of stuff. And we actually personally talked to some people, you know. But not a lot of people have, you know, the  courage to go and say something to somebody in person. To make them stop. I mean, it took me a little while before this happened, but I remember telling my husband like when I first started in my career, man, if this was a regular job, half of these people will be fired already for sexual harassment. But, again, I talked about it before, and this was, we lived in a culture of silence. And, um, and a lot of the girls, you know, spoke out, and some of them were heard, and some of them were victimized again. I mean,  they blamed the victim. But for me, it's very important to take action. You know, and especially in cases where some of this stuff were, to the level that they were that they don't, they don't necessarily need to be afraid of doing that, because that's the next step in order to keep people that were multiple offenders, keep them away from doing it again.
 
Marissa: But don't you think it could possibly, potentially hurt somebody's career to speak out? I mean, there have been cases where, you know, even in Hollywood where women spoke out against Harvey Weinstein years and years before, the #MeToo movement and they were blacklisted. And I'm sure the same thing has happened in the Wrestling World.
Thunder Rosa: I mean, there's a reason why a lot of us didn't say anything before. Before the speak out happened. Because if you say something and you don't have the platform, or you don't have the name, you know, you're gonna get blackballed. You know, so it's like a sort of two edges, right? Is like, even your blamed if you speaking, or blamed if you don’t. And I think some, some people were like, why you're not use your platform, that way that you should? We all decide to take action a different way. You know, and definitely, when I was, like, somebody that I knew that that was, that was part of the abuse, or they receive abuse, like, I definitely reach out to some of them, you know. But some of them are really vulnerable, and they don't want to really talk about it. So I respected that too. You gotta, you know, how they feel. But um, yeah, I mean, it's an interesting, it's an interesting topic, and is very sensitive, because you've got to go both ways.
 
Rob: Of course, you hit it right on the head. And I just wanted to say, like, you know, I do I very much like support the indie talent on the show. That's what it's all about. We tried to put them over, if you will. We've seen, you know, some of these women come out. And I've seen one, saying that she had a story, but she even though all this is going on, she did not feel that she had to share it. And again, there's no pressure there. And then she ended up just walking away from the business right now. Are you seeing like a lot of that on your end? Or are you are you thinking like, this is something that that is going to actually come out the other end very positive?
 
Thunder Rosa: It could be both ways. I mean, I get some of that locker rooms were very toxic. And like, a lot of the women were kind of like, at the edge, and men too. So I think because of like now, there's not a lot of shows, running, opportunities are sparse. As far as the like, in like, all this that is happening and has been so hurtful, in many ways, like, some people would just rather just something else. You know, because it's just like, I don't know. Like, for some people was traumatizing. Because they, they suffered from some of this abuse and harassment, and some of these, you know, being blackballed and stuff like that. So then is reading continue to read the stories and reread them? It was it was, it was a lot. It was a lot.
 
Rob: So, you know, we're working a lot with this indie talent. You know, we talk about, you know, obviously, before this COVID stuff, but when we had these conventions, where we had these indie shows where we have, you know, the up and coming talent, come pick up the bigger name talent from the airport, or we talk about the talent and these indie shows where they have to share a locker room. You're kind of your thoughts on that, Thunder Rosa.
 
Thunder Rosa: Well, it happened and it shouldn't ever happen. And we should have said something. But now, given the fact that this, this all happened, and we need to be different, and we need to be better. The last show that I was in, there was no locker room for the girls. What I said, and I and I yell at the guys, too. I said, Don't you ever let another woman change in front of you. It's all our responsibility. And I'm not talking about just women. But you guys do to take care of the girls. A lot of these girls are new, so they feel afraid of like speaking up. But you know what, I've been in the business for six years. I'm a business owner. I'm a wrestler, I'm a pro-MMA fighter. I'm a mother. I'm a wife. You know, I, myself have been through this too. I am not gonna let another girl to change in front of all of us anymore if we get a little tiny place for us to be to have privacy. So be it. But I also want to blame the guys for allowing this to happen too. Because they're also responsible. This is why I had the conversation and I said to everybody is like you guys are also responsible. You guys have to be brothers keepers. We're all brothers here. There's no more BS of like, “Oh, no, no, it’s just business…” None. None of that. This should never happen in the first place.
 
Marissa: Thunder Rosa, for President 2020
 
Rob: I know, I literally like clapping my hands over here don't mess with her.
 
Thunder Rosa: A lot of the times I was afraid to say something. Even like, when like, the promoter didn’t give me my money or something. To like, be sensitive. I can't be sensitive, you know? It's my body. It’s my is my brand. It's everything, you know? I'm not perfect, I'm not a role model. I just care for other people. And that's it. If you don't care for other people fine. But be ready for another speak out movement to happen. Because if we continue to have this mentality, this is going to continue to happen no matter what. You know. So that's why I'm like right now, I'm all about action. You have to put your money where your mouth is, or whatever that is. It's like, if I say, I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna do something. And again, if I'm in a locker room, with women, especially in the Indies, because the locker rooms are very small, I will demand for a place. And I'm not talking about, send me to the bathroom, where everybody's going to be using the bathroom, they're going to be interrupting me. I'm asking for a little place and where I can change, and the others girls can change without being bothered by the guys or being like looked at, or vice versa.
 
Marissa: Right. We've been hearing a lot from previous interviews about how people who are being accused of sexual harassment sexual assault are still being booked. And when it's brought up to promoters about well, why are you booking them? They've been accused, they say, “Well, what do you want us to do not book them?” So what do you think about that?
 
Thunder Rosa: That's the reason why, for me, it's super important that I mentioned at the beginning of the show, that you have to press charges, and, you know, legal actions to be taken. Because when there is an accusation, the people are gonna say, well it’s just an accusation. It's that he said, she said. And that's how they defend themselves. But then there's actually multiple cases and where the girls can go after this person or this other person, it's a different story.
 
Marissa: Yeah. As a business owner, and  a person who works in wrestling as a business owner, what do you think that promoters and the organizations can do to create the safer environments for their, for the wrestlers and for their talent?
 
Thunder Rosa: Well, you know, there is an organization that has been created in Los Angeles that is just focusing on this specific aspect, which is sexual harassment, HR and everything. And I don't think that this has ever happened before. It’s the wrestling coalition, and I will send you guys a link. She's been working super hard. And she's working with other wrestlers, female and male wrestlers. And we're are with me reaching out to other schools, and organizations, wrestling organizations to like, educate people about this aspect. Because this is a serious thing. And because there's no platform created for us, we're independent director like us is really difficult to follow through, and to have an investigation. Like in other regular jobs where, there's sexual harassment, the person gets suspended, and, you know, there's an investigation and whatever happens, happens. And we have to also remember, because there’s only an accusation, you cannot be proven guilty until you're found guilty. Which again, that's, for me is so important. And I've talked many times with some of my friends, that it's important that you need to seek legal action. Because as you guys can see, there was a video, and the person said very clearly, there was no legal action taken, so I can speak now. And you're blaming the victim. And I'm just like, I was blown away, I was like, wow, nobody went and actually pressed charges? Especially after having all this proof that it was real. So it's like, I mean, because we don't have the HR and we don't have like somebody that can guide you through it. Because it's painful. It's a pain in the butt. It's like nobody wants to do it and nobody wants to spend money on lawyers. But it’s necessary. It’s necessary.
 
Marissa: You don't think it falls on the organization to protect people. Like to, if there's an accusation, if not do an investigation, at least suspend or avoid booking somebody for the accusation.
 
Thunder Rosa: I mean, some people they don't really care. Business is business. Remember, this is still a lot of people in the business that are still out there, and they've done some shady stuff, just because people haven't said anything. They're still running the stuff. You know? And nobody's saying anything about it. And nobody will say anything about it, because there's a lot of people with a lot of power.
 
Marissa: I think it's kind of like a vicious cycle, if you think about it. So, they abuse somebody, and that person doesn't speak up so they're allowed to continue to abuse, and abuse, and abuse. But if someone does speak up and nothing happens, then that person who's been abusing feels like on top of the world. Like they're unstoppable. Nobody can touch them. So it's almost encouragement to keep abusing. So I feel like, although I agree with what you're saying: Business is business, there are so many people out there that aren't abusive pieces of shit. why don't we give them the booking instead of, you know, well, it's a he said, she said.
 
Thunder Rosa: You know, that but everybody, every organization does business differently. Like, for example, me. If I know, I know, it's true, and I've seen it, and I, you know, my friends told me and I know it everything. I know that person will never work with us. Just period. But again, everybody has a different set of values, everybody has a different perspective of things, you know, and I see what you're saying, like, I saw one of the promoters and they were like, Hey, why are you booking this person? This person has like, a long list of bad behavior, you know? And I saw.
 
Rob: Absolutely, I you know, I see that over here in the shows, you know, where sometimes we're lucky enough to have, like, you know, drive in shows, you know, equivalent to like a drive in theater of wrestling shows or whatever. And every once in a while I'm running an interview or something,  and someone will chime in with a comment about somebody or something associated with somebody. So again, it's very, you know, it's very crazy. He's saying, but Thunder Rosa, telling it like it is. And Marissa, you know, obviously, I see where you're coming from as well obviously, Marissa being like, as we like to say a survivor, a champion here on this show. But I want to throw this quote at you Thunder Rosa. Marissa, helped me out, I always botch the quotes. But they say in the ring, you know, you guys trust each other. Behind the curtain. You guys are brothers and sisters, I guess this is really a quote. But uh, you know, I guess the quote was, you know, “We can we can trust each other to catch each other in the ring, but we can't trust each other outside of the ring.” Your thoughts on that?
 
Thunder Rosa: It's the entertainment business. If this was a regular job, you think that people act certain way, and they end up being a different way. In where like they're backstabbers. They, you know, they say they have your best interest, which is BS. And they go. And when it’s their time, they go after you, one way or another. This is a perfect example of things. And it saddens me terribly. Because this is not a way to do business, and to work. There's nothing worse than you work at a place, and then you want to try to go to a different place, but you can't because you're blackballed. You can’t because somebody used their power to try to hinder you. But nothing is better and more empowering than when you are you, and you decide to take action, and take your life in your own matters and do things the right way. And show people that whatever is being said, is not true. Especially when you’re a victim of harassment. So, man, it's just this for me, this is such a sensitive topic. And that's why I say like, some people, honestly, Marissa, they don't care. They really don't care.
 
Marissa: And it's disgusting to me. And you can see it truly in the fans as well. And I'm not by any means bashing wrestling fans. But we've had people on the show that talk about how fans are so loyal to the people that they grow up watching, and so loyal to the wrestlers that they follow, that anyone that comes out and makes an accusation gets bashed on social media. And that's so scary for people. You know, like you said, it's such a sensitive topic, and people speaking their truth and speaking out about their story are being so vulnerable, that then to be victim blamed and victimized by fans of the person they've accused, is so traumatizing. It's probably almost as traumatizing as the actual incident.
 
Thunder Rosa: But when you speak out, that's part of what the consequences are. And you have to be aware, when this happens, that this is going to happen. Especially if you're a part of an entertainment business. And we saw when the #MeToo. All those women who spoke out, they were also bashed. I read a lot of these books a couple years ago, and he was like the women and men were scared because they go after them. Everything. And they tried to go, and they tried to dig dirt, and they tried to do a bunch of stuff, you know, which is not cool either. But we have to be mindful when you're going to speak your truth, this was, this is going to happen, and you have to be ready. But you also have to be ready to take action. To like, take it to the next level. I mean, that's why it was so powerful for the #MeToo movement with all these women from Hollywood. They were able to take action, and they put him in jail. Because there were so many stories, and all of them were very similar. The same with Bill Cosby. With all these women spoke out after 20-30 years, they all took him out of society. So he was not being, you know, booked to do a show and booked to do this, and do that. But that is what is necessary sometimes. Because otherwise, Marissa, we’re going to go back to people not caring about the allegations and continuing to book these people.
 
Marissa: Right. So that's what I want to avoid. You said that there was a coalition? Is the person collecting stories for lack of a better term in order to advocate for people? Or is that just like, like a survivor resource?
 
Thunder Rosa: No, it's more of creating a platform and where if this incidents happen in schools, or whatever else, there's actually somebody who can actually do an investigation. And there is like, they're creating policies that can be used in different promotions, schools, and they can be implemented too, in case of these situations happening. So it can’t continue to hurt people. So if like, somebody goes and does an allegation, there is an investigation right away. Or there should be an investigation right away. So that's what we're trying to implement. Again, this organization is in its infancy, but she's working very hard. And she's been working with attorneys and HR specialists from all over the country. So like I said, I'll pass you the information if you want to be part of it. Because I think this is very, very important. Because this is the wrestling. Women in professional wrestling. This is called professional wrestling for a reason, right? So this should be taken as professional wrestling. As a profession. We're professionals. Right? I mean, I always see it that way. You know, but it's like, like you were saying, like, you can’t trust people in the back. Like you have to, that's why we have to be very mindful of who we associate ourselves with. Because then later on, they can bite us in the butt. Even when we don't have nothing to do, just because we were friends.
 
Rob: You know, very, very well said, the business has been so positive to me, you know, I've just made so many like friends and connections and obviously, Thunder Rosa, you have had such just such a decorated career so far. You've had so many accomplishments, I you know, I wish we were here talking about our dream opponents and you know, dream tag team partners and all this stuff. But you know, obviously, we're talking about a very serious topic. Does this kind of, like, obviously it sours everything, but what's kind of your positive level on the business versus the negativity? Like what's, what's your feeling right now?
 
Thunder Rosa: Man, for me, professional wrestling has brought a lot of happiness, And a lot of a lot of my dreams came true because of professional wrestling, because of how much dedication and passion I have to this. I mean, it's a very difficult business to be in. It’s mainly dominated by men, white men. So the odds of a person color to like, be decorated and like, make it big, it's, it's hard. It's very, very hard and you go through a lot of, you eat a lot of shit. So excuse my language. But you have to learn how to navigate and how to be smart and how to like, you know, do what's best for you. And without stepping on other people's backs, or backstabbing other people, that's like my number one thing. I don't like doing that, just to get ahead. And a lot of my veterans and will be like, you're in the wrong business, because you're such a good person. But I'm not going to put my values and my morals on the side just because I want to get something. I'm gonna get it because of my merit. Because I will worked hard for it. Because I bled for it. Because I sweat for it. Because I worked so hard. And there's no denial that I deserve it. So I think professional wrestling has taught me to be tough, to have tough skin, and I have no limits. I never had limits, but I think this one has taught me even more to be limitless. The only limits that I have and the ones that I set for myself. And that's it. Like nobody else can tell me Otherwise.
 
Marissa: I wish more people had that mindset.
 
Rob: Yeah, clapping my hands over here right now. Very, very well said. And you’re such a bad ass, and really telling it like it is. I do want to be respectful of your time, Thunder Rosa, and thank you again so much for a few minutes. I did want to ask you this. You know a lot of times you mentioned your husband, some of your guys endeavors. You guys make me believe in love again. But I did want to talk about, I believe its Mission Pro Wrestling. I see you guys posted some stuff, I think fans can request matches and all that stuff. You know, I just saw Holidead — a couple days ago at a drive-in show here in Jersey. She was fantastic in person. But not about shameless promo. We'll get to that later. I did want to ask you, you did mention earlier in the interview about kind of taking on an all female roster, and all female management. Tell us a little bit more about that.
 
Thunder Rosa: It's been a heck of a roller coaster. Right after the Speak Out happened, my husband's like, “Well, I mean, you go and I should start running an all female promotion.” And I'm like, Man, I'm not ready. And he's like, no, it's time. Oh, man, it's gonna be hard. So, you know. We try our best to do as much to fulfill our older roles with females. From the merch table, to the tickets. Our Booker's a female, I'm the owner. Sound, commentary, everything. Like we want women production. The hardest thing to find is women that are in production. So that's where I come here. And I'm probably not going to wrestle very much, because I want to make sure that I learned production, and I'm able to like run things in the back. But that's the most difficult part because I don't feel that there is enough women in the production area. And that's one of the most important parts of professional wrestling, because it's being professional wrestling is being put on YouTube is being put all over the world. But you need somebody to produce that and to produce it well. So that's been very challenging. And I've been like trying to talk to some of the girls into like, “Hey, are you interested in learning more about how to like, record a match? And how to like edit a match and how to do this stuff.” And they're like, “Nah, I just really want to wrestle.” And I'm just thinking in my head, recording, editing, and learning how to do all this things will take you even further because you can use it for your YouTube, you can use for your Patreon. If you're into OnlyFans, you can use that. So that's like other sources of income. So it's like changing the mindset of just being a wrestler and entertainer to like being a wholesome business person. It is very difficult. And that's what I want to do with Mission Pro Wrestling — is like not only allow and give a platform for women to wrestle and entertain people, but also to learn other ways to like, become their own businesses, and business owners. Which is owning their own brand, and, and being able to make money with wrestling. Which is one of the hardest things to do and be successful at it.
 
Marissa: As far as the production elements go, I have a couple female friends that I think would really benefit from working with you just because of your like badass-ery and your power. And if you’d like I can refer them to you or connect them to you and see if they are people that you'd like to work with.
 
Thunder Rosa: Yeah, if like, especially if they're like, I don't know if they live, where do you live? Marissa?
 
Marissa: I'm in Chicago, but they're all over the place.
 
Thunder Rosa: Yeah, if they're like closer to Texas, it will be best. Again, we're just starting. And I'm like, seriously trying to do this with my team as like, self sufficient as possible, because we want to make sure that you know, we get our equipment. But we want to make sure that we're able to, in the future have like bad ass production, and everything's owned by us. And we're like running that way. I mean, yes, we'll definitely like to get some help for the future shows.
 
Marissa: Okay, I'll connect you to a couple people.
 
Thunder Rosa: Awesome.
 
Rob: Love it. Love it. You guys are killing it. Last question for me, Thunder Rosa. And again, thank you so, so much for a few minutes of your time. I do like to end things on a positive note, if you don't mind my asking. We do have a lot, a lot of indie talent on the show. So kind of a two parter here, tying it to what we've been talking about earlier. Any advice you would have for them, you know, to kind of move forward safely. And then if you wouldn't mind some advice for them creatively or trying to get over or move forward in the business.
 
Thunder Rosa: I think it's like, people need to stop focusing so much on like, the, like, the end goal. Which is it could be you know, AEW, WWE, all that stuff, and just really enjoy the journey. Like it took me years for me to like, be like, Okay, I'm enjoying what I'm doing. It was just go. And then after I achieved so much, I'm like, What am I doing? And that's when we were missing it, or like we're comparing ourselves to other people are more successful than us. I started with us. Our journey is completely different than the other persons journey. So you just have to enjoy the trials and tribulations that you will go through. And when you stop enjoying it, you need to stop doing it. Like don't make everybody miserable in the locker room and be a sour puss. Fans give us so much, so much, that you have no clue. Like so many of my fans, right now, I can tell you, they have given my family and me so much joy, and they have helped me create so many great memories, that if I would have done it, any other way, I don't think I would have been able to achieve it otherwise. So it is so important that you are positive. And you are that you actually give something to this to this business, you know, because at the end of the day, when you die, like you're gonna take everything. All the knowledge and everything else you have is going to be for nothing. So for me, that's why, maybe because I was a social worker before, for me, it's important to give, to be generous and to be to be genuine. Because that's gonna take you a lot further than just being selfish.
 
Rob: Wow, I'm just gonna echo when Marissa said Thunder Rosa, for president, Marissa: you got anything else before we get out of here.
 
Marissa: I just, if you wouldn't mind giving just like one piece of advice to any up and comer who might face some sort of abuse or harassment. Or, veteran wrestlers who have faced — what’s like one piece of advice you'd give them.
 
Thunder Rosa: I will say that, if you have been harassed before in any way shape, or form, that if you have somebody you trust really well like either veteran, a friend or whatever, to help you talk to the other person and really be like, you need to stop. It's so important. It's so important to tell them to stop. And if they don't stop, you need to like gather all your information, all this stuff that you have, and really take action. Because it's so important other than this people because some people are sick, they're really sick, and they need to be taken out. And I'm not talking about just the business. They need. So sick. And they've done it so many times of so many different people. And, and that's very, very important. Because they, they, they will continue to do it. They don't do it to you, they're going to jump to the next person, they're gonna go to the next person. And it's really sad, because some people are so passionate about pro-wrestling, that when this happened, like their passion, the love and everything is gone. And it just takes everything away. And it takes so long for them to like rebuild and continue. Because not everybody's strong. You know, not everybody can just keep going and just like brush it off. But that's so important. And believe me, so empowering. I mean, so I mean, I'm telling me, it made me really nervous when I have to like face on people and be like, hey, whatever you're saying, I know you're gonna say it's not true, but I know is true, you need to stop right now. Immediately. Or you will suffer other consequences, because I'm not playing. Especially, a lot of our LGBTQ people, like they suffer from a lot of that stuff. And they think that some people would think is funny when they're being harassed like that. It's not funny. It's not funny at all.
 
Rob: Thank you for saying that. Very, very well said. And Thunder Rosa, like I said, I do want to end this on a positive note, you know, hopefully next time we talk to you, you know, we're talking about goals and all sorts of other stuff in the world to be back to normal. But I am all about the shameless promo here. So please, you know, I saw you just put up some pictures on your website. You know, I'm definitely gonna look into that. But tell us where everyone can follow on social media, your website and all your endeavors coming up.
 
Thunder Rosa: So you guys can find me at ThunderRosa22@gmail.com if you want to send me an email. But you can find me at ThunderRosa.net. All my social media is linked to there. I also have my YouTube page and where it's monetized. So every time I do live feeds, or I put a new video I usually am in the chat so you guys can donate money to the cause. You know, this is how I make a living. Because I'm not wrestling very much. Future plans. I feel like I'm you know, floating some stuff in there, but we're going 100% of admission for wrestling — We're thanks support as many women as possible. And this is not your typical BS small promotion. We're trying we will make it as big as possible. We have a lot of connections and we want to make sure those who work hard and deserve it,  get those opportunities just like I did. Somebody was able to give me those opportunities or just offer those opportunities and just take over the world. We want good people to take over professional wrestling. Good, strong, women to take over professionalism.
 
Marissa: Make Professional Wrestling Safe Again.
 
Rob: There it is. I love it. It's not a Thunder Rosa Thank you so much. You know obviously you fan for a long time but more importantly we appreciate you all Opening up, you certainly have my respect and continued success moving forward. Thank you so much for your time.
 
Thunder Rosa: No, thank you guys for having me. Appreciate
 
Rob: All right guys, as always say here, stay safe, stay positive, take care of each other. We're out peace.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Healing From Emotional Abuse: What Does A Healthy Relationship Look Like? : With Makayla McNeil of The Butterfly Effect

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today we're going to talk about this really cool program that I'm very, very interested in learning about, called the Butterfly Effect. It is run by a friend of mine named Makayla McNeil. She's the founder and director of the butterfly effect. She's a domestic violence survivor, who uses her testimony and experience to help others. She also runs her own domestic violence project called Speak Out Convo’s you can find the links to the Anchor.com google.com and radio Republic links in the description. Welcome, Makayla. We're so excited to have you today.
 
Makayla: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.
 
Marissa: Awesome. So, let's get started. You said that you have experienced domestic violence. Is that something that you're comfortable talking about with us?
 
Makayla: Yes, definitely. I've been in multiple domestic violence relationships. The first one started when I was 17. I feel like from a young age, I tried to seek validation in men, due to family trauma and certain things that I experienced in my childhood. At 17 I met a man who was very charismatic, very charming, swept me off my feet fairly quickly. In the beginning of our relationship, it was a lot of verbal abuse being called fat, ugly; told I would never be anything. And I feel like I kind of convinced myself like “well, it's not that bad. It's not physical.” His drinking started to pick up and it was a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde personality. I never knew what person I was going to get. He started kicking me hitting me punching me, biting me, spitting on me. I think the worst time that he had put his hands on me was when he choked me to the point of unconsciousness. And when I came to my senses, the paramedics were over me the neighbors had called the police. He had left at that point. The neighbors had called the paramedics and I was hospitalized for about a week. And due to there being no room in the domestic violence shelters, I was released to the streets, homeless with the clothes on my back that I left with. Sleeping on park benches in the middle of winter. Not knowing when I was going to eat; not knowing when I was going to shower. And years later, that kind of inspired me to create the Butterfly Effect project. Because it made me think about how many other men and women are going through what I've gone through or worse. And so that's the reason why I started the Butterfly Effect. The Butterfly Effect, I offer educational information on narcissistic behavior, mental health and how it's associated with domestic violence. I also talk a lot about healthy boundaries, healthy relationships and what intimate partner relationship is supposed to look like. I offer peer-to-peer support, I guide people to resources in their community. The Butterfly Effect originally started out with just a Facebook page of me telling my story. And honestly, I didn't think anybody was going to look at it. I've only been doing it for a little less than a year and I have 15,000 followers. I've done YouTube radio interviews; I've done a lot of speaking engagements talking about domestic violence and what healthy relationships look like. And my goal is to get my 501(C) and turn it into a non-profit organization. But I do help men and women all over the world all over the United States. Even though I am located in Iowa, I help people all over with whatever they need. If they need somebody to advocate for them through the court process, if they just need an ear somebody to talk to. Because a lot of times with domestic violence, we feel alone, we feel isolated. We feel like you know, there's no one we could really talk to, you know, there's a lot of judgment, a lot of victim blaming. When it comes to domestic violence in it, it makes it hard for people to want to speak up and speak out. So, I try to make my platform just open, loving, caring place so people know that they're not alone. And there are people that care and there are a lot of people who have experienced domestic violence and you're not alone in this situation even though you feel that you might be.
 
Marissa: That's amazing. Well, thank you for sharing your story with us. And I'm so excited that you're doing such amazing work and if you need help getting your 501(c)3 let me know. I could send you my paperwork.  So tell us, What did you do throughout your healing process to help you become so strong?
 
Makayla: That's a really good question. Definitely did therapy, whether you choose to do therapy or not, it's very important to build a support network and find people you could talk to. I love to write poetry. I love journaling. I'm not going to lie, there was a period where I was heavily drinking. And I like to, you know, tell people, you know, drinking, smoking weed, unfortunately, it is legal in some states. But you know, that's not always the answer, you know? As hard as it is, we have to find those positive coping skills. Because although drinking is fun, if you're doing it for the wrong reasons, it is self harm. So, I think for my healing, I did a lot of talking about it talking about it helps. I always like to give people this analogy We're like a Pepsi bottle. If you shake the Pepsi bottle up and take off the cap, what happens? It explodes. So, us as humans were the same way. If we leave all that stuff inside, and we're not talking about it, we're not getting it out. You know, we're going to explode, we're going to blow up. And that's what I was doing for the longest. Just having these moments where I was just exploding. And like, oh, my goodness, you know, what's wrong with me? Why am I doing this, but it was because I was keeping all that anger and that hurt and that resentment in. I tell people, a lot of times when we're leaving our abusers, it's kind of like a grieving process, like we're grieving somebody who died. Because at one point or another, there was something that made us fall in love with that individual. In order to heal, you have to grieve and go through those emotions of losing that relationship. So, it was very difficult for me, I do suffer from depression, post traumatic stress, really bad anxiety because of my domestic violence situation. And I talk a lot on my Butterfly Effect about mental health and how it's associated with domestic violence. Because those situations of PTSD and depression are very pertinent when talking about domestic violence. I also have been in courtrooms with domestic violence victims and even going through the court process is hard. Like, a lot of people think, well, I'm going to leave my abuser in the works over. No, really the works just beginning because you have to fight the court system. I had to fight, to go back to that house to get my belongings back. It was very hard, because as I was living on the street, not having a place to live, he was texting me like, “Hey, you can come back here,” because he had bonded itself out of jail. I wanted to just to have a roof over my head. But I knew that if I went back that one time might be the last time that I couldn't come back from. And I knew that if I went back, you know what I'm saying, he probably more than likely was going to kill me. And that's why I do what I do. I speak out because there's a lot of people who've lost their lives at the hands of their perpetrator. There's a lot of people right now, who could be listening to this that don't feel like they have a voice to speak up and get out. I feel like we need to have more resources in our communities, more programs, more funding put into place for domestic violence, because not only did I have to fight my perpetrator, I felt like I was fighting the system as well. I felt disposable to the world. It was very degrading, not having a place to go, especially after being physically hurt. And I work a lot with legislators and lawmakers, I feel that we need to have a victims Protection Program put into place in every state. I feel that the perpetrators need to wear ankle bracelets, because a lot of time they go to jail, they get out and they go right back and end up murdering, or severely hurting the domestic violence victim. So, these are some things that I want to do. And I'm trying to be an active person in the community to get some of these things established and get some more laws put into place to protect domestic violence victims and survivors. I know I went a long way with that with your one question.
 
Marissa: No, it's good.
 
Makayla: That's what I did to heal. Talking about it, it would probably be the main thing. And there's no time limit on healing. I get a lot of questions through my butterfly effect about me and it's been five years, I'm still having these figures, I'm still going through this, I'm still dealing with that. So, I like to tell people you know, healing is a messy process. Some days are going to be good. Some days are going to be bad. You have to be patient and kind and gentle with yourself. During my domestic violence situation. My self esteem was broken down because I was constantly called names. And I started to believe the things that he was telling me. So, once we leave our domestic violence situation, we regain that sense of stability. We have our sense of worth again, for some people, it takes them off. For some people, it takes 10 years. For some people, it takes a lifetime for them to recover from it. And that's okay. And those are the things I like to tell people through my Butterfly Effect. I also have my own podcast, it's called Speak Out Convo’s, it's on anchor.com google.com and radio Republic. What it is that sometimes I get on there, and I give positive, encouraging motivational speeches. Other times I interview other people who have their own domestic violence organizations, I've interviewed paralegals, and got their aspect on domestic violence. I've interviewed authors, who wrote books about domestic violence. So, for anyone interested who might be to be on my podcast, please feel free to reach out to me through the Butterfly Effect, my link will be posted on the video, feel free to reach out to me whether you're a survivor, or you just want to tell your story. If you're an attorney, a police officer, anyone who wants to give their input on domestic violence or how it directly has affected them or their mental health. I love hearing from new people. I feel like each one of our stories is the key to somebody else's Survival Guide. And everybody's story is other people's strength to want to speak up and speak out. So that's a little bit about my podcast and some of the things that I do.
 
Marissa: That's amazing. And I couldn't agree more that the more people speak out, the more we inspire other people who are still silenced, to speak out and to find their own strength. So, thank you for doing that. And for doing everything you're doing. I'd love to come on your podcast, if you'll have me, I've done all of that. I speak out about my stories. I'm an author. I have programs and courses for confidence building, but we'll talk about that another time. So, you pretty much covered it but is there any additional advice that you'd give to survivors to help them on their healing journey?
 
Makayla: The most important thing is Be patient and kind and gentle with yourself. Sometimes we can be our own worst critics. And we're very hard on ourselves. We ask ourselves, what could we have done better so that this didn't happen? But we can't blame ourselves. We have to know that No matter what we said, no matter what we did, nobody deserves any type of violence. And please speak out, build your support network, find people that you can talk to. Find positive coping skills, whether it's journaling, taking a walk, listening to your favorite music, taking a bubble bath, five things and make yourself feel good. And know that you're not alone. Anybody that's listening, you could reach out to me day or night, my Butterfly Effect is very safe, a safe haven. We don't allow any negativity on the page. So, you're safe. And just know that you're not alone. And you will get through this there is life after abuse. I know sometimes it doesn't seem that way. When we're going through our difficult situations, it's hard to see the greater good, and see that there is a life beyond that. There definitely is. And thank you so much for having me on here today. And given me an opportunity to speak about the Butterfly Effect and what I do. It definitely means a lot to me.
 
Marissa: Of course, I'm so happy to have you. And thank you for doing all the fantastic work you're doing with and for survivors and champions of abuse. I am so grateful that there are people like you out there that are helping to inspire and empower people. You know, we need more people like that in our community to help boost us up because truly we have the numbers. There are more survivors and there are more champions than there are narcissists. And when we band together and collectively help each other heal, we can and will eventually change the world.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching.  Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
The Butterfly Effect for Domestic Violence Survivors Facebook Group:https://www.facebook.com/Butterflyeffectforvictimsandsurvivors
 
Makayla's Podcast : Speak Out Convos :
https://podcasts.apple.com/lb/podcast/speak-out-convos/id1499506466
 
https://anchor.fm/makayla-mcneal/episodes/Marissa-Cohen-AuthorActivist-Speaker-egicml?fbclid=IwAR2DZ9lwjl7TTyaguk-K-VhECaf4bZGv-dKHyaO_36sqrNAA8Fgc413cR7c
 
narcissist. narcissism. overcoming narcissism. toxic relationship. toxic people. ways to heal. how to heal from emotional abuse. living with a narcissist. good friends. healthy relationship. intimate partner violence. intimate partner relationship. healthy relationships. self love. confidence. self esteem. low self esteem. self esteem activities. confidence exercises. breaking through the silence.

Healing From Emotional Abuse: MST Military Sexual Trauma Movement: with Sherry Yetter

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today we're continuing our chat about military sexual trauma and talking with the victims who have been affected by the IAmVanessaGuillen conversation and have experienced military sexual trauma. So today, I'm really honored to bring on Sherry Yetter. Sherry Yetter is a military spouse. She has a master's degree in organizational leadership from Gonzaga University is a military sexual misconduct subject matter expert, a credentialed Military Sexual Assault Response coordinator, and a victim advocate, and a survivor of sexual assault, military sexual harassment, MST, military sexual trauma, and retaliation. Sherry was a victim of military sexual harassment and public retaliation by a general officer while employed as a Sexual Assault Response coordinator for the military. She's still waiting for them to do better. Sherry and her husband, a senior marine officer currently reside in Virginia. Thank you so much for being here, Sherry. Wow, you are about as involved in the sexual assault world as I am.
 
Sherry: Yes, one could definitely say that I bring a unique perspective to everything that is sexual harassment and military sexual trauma in in the military, just because of my training, education and experience. And then, of course, being a spouse. So…
 
Marissa: Wow. Well, thank you for your service to survivors. You are incredible. And I'm so excited to talk to you more about this.
 
Sherry: Oh, well, thank you for having me on the podcast. This is actually my very first podcast. So, I'm kind of nervous, but I'm ready to go as well, because it's important. Everything that we've learned from Vanessa Guillen’s case, over the past few weeks, and unfortunately, two months, it has just been heartbreaking. And it has reminded me of my commitment to helping other survivors learn the power of their voices, and hopefully bringing all of us together so that our collective voices will be heard and change will happen.
 
Marissa: Yes! The more people that we can get to speak up, the more likely you are to make a change. We have to put pressure on the system, and you're doing a phenomenal job doing that. So, thank you so much.
 
Sherry: It's my pleasure.
 
Marissa: Would you mind telling us a little bit about what you experienced while working for the military?
 
Sherry: Oh, gosh, how much time do we have, Marissa? The reason I see that I kind of joke about it is because you're going into our eighth year of the fight for justice. I was originally a sexually harassed by a marine officer, who was my supervisor, back in 2013. He left in 2014. I quite unexpectedly, I was transitioning to a new billet and new job. So, I didn't really care that he was going, you know, I felt like I had, handled the situation at the time to the best of my ability. I hadn't been able to file a report. I had been discouraged from doing so by another supervisor that I had at the time, because I was a newbie working for the Marine Corps. I was still within my probationary period. And so, I took what they said to heart, even though I had years of experience in other areas with other branches of service. This was my dream job. And I really wanted to do a great job helping Marines and families. So, when that other supervisor told me, “Well, you know, do you really want to do that? Because once you ring that bell, it can't be unrung. And, you know, not only could your career be impacted your husband's career as well.” So here I was a new employee, and I'd already been sexually harassed. Another supervisor tells me, you know, don't ring that bell because your husband's careers is being threatened now as well. So, I didn't, and I continued working in a very hostile work environment. And slowly I became aware that I was not the only victim of this marine officer.
 
Marissa: Wow. Okay. So, by speaking up, you connected with Other people who have been harassed by the same person?
 
Sherry: Well, yes and no. And the only people who knew that I had spoke up initially, were one, the supervisor that harassed me, and to my other supervisor, who is the one who discouraged me from going forward. My colleagues, my co workers, no one else knew, I couldn't even tell my husband what had happened at that time. In fact, I didn't tell him for almost another two and a half years or so. So, the way that I became aware was just the powers of observation. And then after he left slowly, after the officer that had sexually harassed me, after he left the building, I slowly began to get to know other individuals. And I could pick up on the signs, and we built trust, collaborative trust. And eventually it just kind of came out. So that's how I learned.
 
Marissa: Wow. So, I want to focus on that for a minute. Because I think that's so huge, that nobody really ever talks about it, are serial abusers. Right? People who abuse more than one person and they keep doing it, because they don't face any consequences or repercussions for their actions?
 
Sherry: Absolutely. This individual exhibited the standard predatorial grooming behaviors. This wasn't the first time he had done this. And I knew that. I had years and years of experience in working in male dominated industries. So, this wasn't my first trip to the rodeo, so to speak, when he did what he did. And I would love to go into more detail. But unfortunately, some of this is still at a federal investigation and legal arena. So, I don't want to stay anything that's going to get me into trouble with that. And but what I can't talk about is that my experience and what happened with that. When he did what he did, and he sexually harassed me, there's no doubt about that one, I handled it the way that I had always handled inappropriate behaviors and phrases, or the way that that men would talk to me. At one point in my career, I have worked with used car salesman.
 
Marissa: I know what you mean.
 
Sherry: He was the used car salesman that I've worked with, and I worked with them all over the country, I was a trainer, and I would visit them in their spaces, not mine. Their spaces, I never once felt threatened by them. I was never sexually harassed by them in a way that made me feel uncomfortable. The way that this marine officer sexually harassed me, there was a clear difference in the intent of what he was trying to accomplish. Somebody saying to me, “Well, hey, you know what, you look really nice today.” Well, thank you. I appreciate that. There's a big difference between that and the intent behind someone who is deliberately trying to harm you and it was apparent. So, me being the farm girl from Iowa, what did I do when this marine officer said something to me? And then demonstrated is, shall I say, affection in a very physical way? I just I handled it. I was more afraid the first time that it happened. I didn't want to embarrass him. Because I thought, well, maybe it's just a male physical reaction that he just couldn't control. I don’t know… I'm not a guy. I don't have those body parts. So, I don't know if they can control it or not. But the second time, literally the same things happen again, I knew that the first time definitely had not been an accident, per se. And I just said a few choice words, about him probably needing to meet my husband and I got up and walked away. I had handled it. In my mind, I handled it, which is what a lot of other women or other victims of sexual harassment do is that we just we handle it. And we go on.
 
Marissa: Right? No, you're totally right. And even if the problem isn't resolved, we don't speak about it and get that person in trouble. Like you said before your job was threatened. Your husband's job was threatened. It was almost like a threat on your reputation, and then you'd have the whole Marine Corps to answer to and that's not safe for you. So, what you did, was that in your mind at that point, the safe option, right?
 
Sherry: Absolutely, I did, I took the safest option. Then it wasn't until later, as I was going through my training to become a credentialed Sexual Assault Response Coordinator, SARC, that I realized that yes, I had handled it the best way that I could at the time, but that I had done a disservice to my sisters, the other civilian Marines, the other Marines in the building, anyone else who could have potentially been a victim of this individual. And that's when I decided to step forward no matter what, and bring light to what this individual had done. Little did I know that it would be such a long process for justice, that I would have to fight each and every step of the way. But I'm not going to give up I'm not going to go away, and I won't be silent. I just want to help other victims, find their own voices.
 
Marissa: I love your spirit. And I love your attitude, because what you're enduring, and I'll come back to talking about this legal or asking you rather about this legal process, because I'm sure it's horrendous, and back and forth, and the bureaucracy is crap. But there are two things I want to talk about, before we get to that. The first thing is, I want to go back to him being a serial abuser, because I forget what the hunting ground said. But they said 9% of males are perpetrators, which is a very low number. But of that 9%, like 86% of them will harass or assault six or more people. So, I feel like I haven't had a chance to ever really focus on that. And I'd love to talk to you because you have so much experience with a serial abuser. I'd love to just pick your brain about that. Is that cool?
 
Sherry: Oh, absolutely. It's funny that you would mention those particular statistics. Because in my building, just on the Marine Corps Base that we worked on, I know that there were at least four victims by the same marine officer, two of which came forward, myself and another person, and then two others that I know of that have remained silent, but still supportive. And I respect their decisions to protect their anonymity. And I think a large part of that is because of what the other victim and I that did come forward have experienced with the Marine Corps. Clearly, this was not his first time doing this. This wasn't the first time that he took advantage of his perceived power, as a leader to sexually harass or groom or take advantage of the situation with 80 of the subordinates, or really anyone in his proximity.
 
Marissa: It's disgusting. You know, I don't know exactly what you went through. And I'm not going to ask for any further detail. But I get so upset, even though this is the field I work in, this is what I do for a living every day. It's still like grosses me out so much that people like him, get away with this, you know, and that he can offend so many people because even if people speak up, you said you were fighting this for seven years now. I mean, this happened in 2013, And he still has not faced consequences, I imagine.
 
Sherry: Well, to an extent he has Yes. So, I could tell you, in generic terms, what he did, I could also direct you to Google, my name and Marine Corps and any number of articles are going to pop up because there was national coverage on my case, because of the fight that we've had to be heard. to have proper investigations done, which is a whole another podcast just all on its own. The accountability piece finally came in, believe it or not 2017 when he came back to work in the same building that I am one of the other victims were still working in. At that time, when he came back to our building, I was literally beside myself and so I pursued the formal charges against him utilizing the civilian employee EEO process. I had to fight to be heard. I had to fight to get the investigations done, and I kept getting ignored. Literally ignored. It took a really long time to tell you through all of the things that happened in between. But finally came to head in 2018 when I reached out to the USA Today, and they did a story or did articles on what I and the other victim that had come forward had experienced with this individual. That then cause the Commandant of the Marine Corps to order another investigation. But this time I think they took it a lot more seriously because they brought in a department of justice attorney, who also happened to be a marine reservist, he was a Colonel, and he conducted the most thorough investigation that we had been a part of, Thus far. All the other investigations have been very shoddy. But the results of this led to, in the Marine Corps, what they call a board of inquiry. And that is an administrative function where the board can, board consists of three members, and those individuals can determine whether or not the Marine Corps retains this individual, or whether they in layman's term, So, my favorite words to say right now is, they kick them out. It was determined that he was guilty. And they stated that they were going to kick him out. The sad part is that most of the branches of service, once an individual is found guilty of whatever charges it is that they face, he faced three different types of charges. Two out of the three he was found guilty on but they said he was going to be forcibly retired was the punishment. It took them 18 months before he was off the base. Before he was retired. Another 18 months. So, when I say legally was, he held responsible? I had mixed feelings about that. The man retired with the full benefits and a full retirement.
 
Marissa: And I'm sure it was honorable. It wasn't dishonorable or medical, which is I mean, he didn't even deserve medical. He wasn't dishonorably discharged, even though he was found guilty for harassment. I don't mean to laugh, but like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If he had murdered someone or I don't know stolen an extra, you know meal, then maybe he would have been dishonorably discharged. But then he could be found guilty on a panel by military personnel and still be on base for 18 months and retire with everything. I just… you and I are going to have a proper investigation podcast if that's okay with you.
 
Sherry: It just the investigation, the final investigation that happened was key. It is the one that led to that small part of justice that I feel. Because he had, what I hadn't mentioned before is that, this individual had been selected for promotion to Lieutenant Colonel. This individual had also been selected for command, this individual was going to be leading a command that was full of the vulnerable population, before they even got into the military. I just couldn't let that happen. Not knowing what I did.
 
Marissa: That's amazing how strong and brave and courageous you are for taking that on. I mean, think about it. He clearly has the Marine Corps in the palm of his hand. They've been letting him get away with this behavior for so long. And there's no way that not a single person on the base before you either experienced it or noticed something weird about him. Like we give off energy. And people feel that weirdness from people you know. You get the creeps from people that you don't talk to, there's not a chance in hell, that this guy didn't give off some creepy-weird vibe or like set somebody off. And yet he still was up for Lieutenant Colonel which is a huge power position. And there's a ton of people underneath you and on top of that commander of the base. I mean, that's sick.
 
Sherry: Right commander of a base but he was going to be commander of a military entrance processing station. So, all of those individuals looking to go into the service would have been passing through his command.
 
Marissa: That's literally what happened to me with my harasser. He harassed me, two people after me, and then they moved him to recruiting. So, he couldn't go prey on the vulnerable, the most vulnerable population. I don't get it.
 
Sherry: Absolutely. And that's what I should have said, the most vulnerable population. I'm sorry, I was laughing when you were talking about the creepy behaviors, because that's what I said about him, is that his behaviors were just they were creepy. When I was initially trying to describe them, that that's the part of predators and their behaviors. When somebody makes you uncomfortable, because they're invading your space, you can tell the difference between someone who just doesn't understand personal space, and then somebody who is just being creepy. And that's the way his behaviors were.
 
Marissa: You're right, there's a very big difference between someone who doesn't understand space and personal bubbles, and someone who's doing it to assert dominance. And that's what it seems like he was doing. And anyone else who is an abuser, they will also use that tactic, because it makes you feel almost like submissive and them feel dominant.
 
Sherry: Absolutely, he had a behavior where he would come and stand directly behind your chair in our cubicle space. Literally directly behind you so that when you turn to acknowledge him, like, why are you standing there, you would have to turn and then lift your head up, so that you could look him in the face instead of looking him in areas that you probably didn't want to look at.
 
Marissa: I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh. It's just, I mean, I get it, I totally get it. So, I also wanted to go back and talk about your response. Because I never want anyone to feel like they have to justify, you know, well, this is what I did in the moment because it felt right. But now I feel bad. There are five immediate responses, right? There's fight flight, freeze toxic immobility, and fawn. And any of those responses is your brain's immediate reaction to keep you safe in the moment.
 
Sherry: I absolutely agree. And I would never criticize anyone who makes any one of those decisions. I think that by going through the training that I did, in the SAPR world, in the SHARP world, I was learning that there were other things that I could have done. And when I say I felt bad, I did, I felt that I had potentially let others down on, I don't blame myself for that I did what I had to do at the time. But I think that it opened up my eyes, so to speak, in that I needed to be a part of that change. And I needed to assist others other victims by empowering them to step forward by sharing my own story. Little did I know that it would last for as long as it has. And I would end up being retaliated against multiple times. My favorite was by a general officer. But it's that we can't make this stuff up that has happened as part of this process. I mean, I love to write. And I would like to think that I'm creative, but I have nothing on these individuals that have done what they have done in order to either protect the institution that is the Marine Corps, or to protect the marine because, well, you know, they're a Marine, right? So, we have to protect them.
 
Marissa: I appreciate you saying all that, to tell us a little bit about what's been happening for the last seven years, you don't have to go into detail. I'm sure that you're not even allowed to go into detail. But the amount of work and the amount of backlash that you get fighting for justice after an assault on the civilian side, is like an average of four years and you have to retell your story 1000 times. What's it like on the military side, because I can only imagine it being so much more difficult.
 
Sherry: On the military side, it is more difficult because you have to balance the military side and the civilian side. So, if your offender is military, it just adds in other layers of complexity to determining what are the right steps. And then as a civilian employee, it's not the normal response time that you have. We only have 45 days as a government employee to file a sexual harassment complaint against someone. You may be months into figuring out that you are even being sexually harassed. So, a lot of times your 45-day window is long gone.
 
Marissa: That's a really dumb rule. And I get it because they want to protect their own. And they also don't understand why people don't speak up right away. There's that negative connotation of mental health in the military that's still very 1950s. So, like, I understand that, but can you expand a little bit on it?
 
Sherry: Sure. So, this is exactly why I have shared my story. I'm beginning to share more and more of my story. What happened to me happened over a period of time, it was complicated. I had training in this area, I had experienced sexual harassment and sexual assault before, but I was not immune to experiencing it again, this time with a military offender. For those junior enlisted or junior officers. They're very new in their careers, and they are even more afraid than I was to come forward and potentially harm their careers. So, what do they do? They don't say anything, they deal with it on their own as best they can. Or they just as we say, in the military, we compartmentalize. We just put it away, we don't deal with it. And then the individual, the offender goes on to get exponentially more powerful in their own beliefs that, hey, I can do this. I did this before I can do it again. And the process itself for the military personnel, because it is a commander-led program, it gets very complicated. Those individuals with military personnel first have to have trust, faith, and confidence in their command leadership, that they're going to do the right thing. And sometimes they walk in and they're thinking, Man, this command is going to be just right there with me, and they're going to be supportive. And that's when they get the questions like, why were you there? Why were you drinking? What were you wearing? These are questions that these victims still get asked. And it's ridiculous. And then people wonder why the victims don't come forward. Whether it's sexual harassment; whether it's sexual assault; whether it's hazing; whether it's bullying; whether it's retaliation. I don't wonder why I know exactly why people.
 
Marissa: Tell us about the retaliation. You said you were retaliated against by general officers?
 
Sherry: Oh, yes. Let's go back to my bio, I worked as a Sexual Assault Response coordinator. So, I was attached to another division, where I oversaw the SAPR program for 5000+ Marines, civilian Marines and their families. But I was also operationally a part of the marine and Family Programs division. Well, the general officer in charge of that division, took it upon himself to publicly discuss the command investigation that had just been ordered by the Commandant of the Marine Corps in front of probably 150 individuals — I'm not exactly sure how many — of my colleagues and co-workers and peers, he decided to discuss the fact that there had been USA Today articles about our cases, and that command investigation had been opened. But he decided to categorize our cases and our experiences as fake news and pardon my language, but, “Bullshit.”
 
Marissa: That's disgusting. And that sounds like it would be a violation of some sort of right. I understand that when you make an investigation, it's very public, but to go and spew that kind of slander. I mean, that just builds distrust against the SAPR program, which already is a very criticized program.
 
Sherry: Absolutely. Especially when you are the general officer in charge of the SAPR program for the entire Marine Corps. The message that was sent was very intimidating. It exacerbated an already hostile work environment for both myself and the other victim that had come forward. It became a complete nightmare for us, not that it hadn't been before. But this took us to a whole new level. Ironically, the Commandant had just days before, had released a new order in the Marine Corps. That was the prohibited activities and conduct order — that describes behaviors that Marines and civilian marines were not to do. Of which retaliation is one of them. This general officer when the investigation began on what he had done, what he had said, basically stated, “well, you know, I'm known for my frat boy humor locker room talk and I hadn't even read the New Order yet that the commandant had released.” If you're a general officer, one of the first things that you should do is when the commandant releases a critical order for all Marines, and you lead the SAPR program, you ought to read the word anyway. No, he didn't. So, he ended up being relieved of command. There was no explanation as to what he was relieved for. And then he was reassigned. He was a brigadier general at the time, he was reassigned to another command, not within the building. And then he was allowed to very quietly retire two years later, again, with full benefits. He was not held accountable.
 
Marissa: None of these guys are. You can't see me right now. But I rolled my eyes a couple times at the shit that he was saying, and the fact that, “Oh, well, I you know, it's like a boy’s club, locker room talk. I'm an inappropriate person.” If I go to work somewhere and my sense of humor is a little inappropriate, I don't act that way. At work, there's an element of professionalism, that he seemed to be lacking. And I think it's disgusting that he was a brigadier general allowed to go in, “Locker room talk.” It's repulsive.
 
Sherry: I agree, it is very repulsive. But then there was another element to this where this individual as a civil officer was standing in front of the division, essentially, giving his speech to a roomful of other leaders to include an SES, the chief of staff, the Sergeant Major other branch heads, what did they do? They did nothing. They didn't intervene. They didn't stop him. And so, by their silence, they conveyed to the other employees in that room that there was tacit approval for what he was saying. How was I supposed to feel safe in that building after that? I don't know.
 
Marissa: The point was that you weren't supposed to feel safe in that building. That was like a direct threat to you. Indirectly. That makes sense.
 
Sherry: Absolutely. So that's where we are right now is with the retaliation piece is still moving forward. Even though the original harm was the sexual harassment, there have just been additional layers of ostracism, retaliation, and fighting to be believed in the investigations, and the lack of investigations, and the EEO process. And the agency Council for the Marine Corps behaviors, you know, by circling the wagons, so to speak to protect the institution. While, not taking care of the victims.
 
Marissa: I have a weird question for you.
 
Sherry: Marissa, there's nothing weird. So, I haven't heard so go right in it.
 
Marissa: If you could go back in time, to right before the investigation started. What do you do this all over again?
 
Sherry: Yes, I would do it again. But Wow, that's a difficult question. I say yes. And I know I would. But if I knew, then all of the pain that I would go through, and the fight that it would take to get justice, it would be a lot harder to answer. Because it hasn't just affected me. It's affected my husband, his career, our children, my grandchildren. This has been going on for so long, and it has impacted, you know, pivotal moments in my children's lives, that should have been very happy occasions. But ironically, something would always happen literally right before a key moment. Like the birth of a grandchild or my daughter's wedding. Or you know, just going to pick out her wedding dress. Literally every single time those types of key moments were going to happen. Something happened literally seconds before the event, which of course, impacts me. It impacts them. Um, so it if I knew it was going to impact all of them so much, I don't know that it would have. If I knew that it was going to take me to such a dark place in my own life, where I fully admit I was suicidal for quite a long time. I don't know that I would do it.
 
Marissa: Thank you for disclosing that. You've probably heard this 1000 times, but you're not alone. And you always have me, and this giant supportive community, at your disposal when you need us. If you ever feel that way, again, you can always count on us to catch you.
 
Sherry: It has taken me a long time to get to that point where I'm very, I'm very comfortable in my skin again. I don't think I will go back to that depth. So now I'm going back and I'm just like, you know, remembering where I was, I could give a more resounding — Absolutely, yes! I would do this all over again, just simply because I don't want anyone else to ever, ever, ever feel that level of pain and despair that I felt.
 
Marissa: Thank you for fighting for people and working with people.  But mostly, fighting to get the bad people out of power positions. I really appreciate it. And I'm sure a ton of people, you know, are very grateful for your effort, and the pain that you and your family have gone through. It's not going unnoticed.
 
Sherry: Thank you. My goal is just to help anybody that I can.
 
Marissa: What does the military need to do or what needs to be done to change the protocol to be more victim-centered, more survivor centered?
 
Sherry: You know, to be honest, and to be fair, the SAPR programs that are in effect now, when they are run effectively, are done pretty well. Those committed individuals that haven't been a SARC, there are really committed individuals out there doing their best to make sure that the victims are taken care of. Where I see the problems are with a commander-LEAD program. And commanders who don't want to give up that level of power or oversight over a sexual assault case or a sexual harassment case. I think that the lack of accountability is the biggest issue in the military. They're not holding the offenders accountable. They're not being equitable in that accountability, when they do hold someone to the letter of the law, or the Uniform Code of Military Justice UCMJ. They need to get over that different spanks for different ranks mentality. And they need to stop thinking about, well, if we don't report these numbers, or we can handle this in house, that we're just making the service better. No, you're not. You're just perpetuating that continual systemic issue of sexual harassment in the ranks, and nothing will ever change. We have to begin with accountability, it has to begin individually And at the command level, there isn't one person that can do it all for everyone. It just has to be come the new systemic norm.
 
Marissa: You're completely right. I mean, one person can’t change the whole system, but one person can start the domino effect that does.
 
Sherry: Absolutely one of the things that I've always said, every time I gave my training, to the Marines or to civilians, I really say, folks, this is not rocket science. If it doesn't belong to you, Don't touch it. If you haven't asked permission, don’t touch it. It has to begin with yourself. And you have to be the one to step up and say something when you see something that is wrong. I did that. I just didn't expect it to be as painful and long as a process as this has been.
 
Marissa: I think that needs to change. I mean, I think that on top of accountability being the first step, I think it needs to also fall into place that the initial reaction shouldn't be, “Well, what were you wearing? Or, you know, maybe they just got confused.” I wholeheartedly disagree. I don't think I've ever gotten confused and accidentally touched somebody or gotten confused that maybe they're no actually meant Yes. Like it's never been a language barrier thing. It's I'm off my soapbox now.
 
Sherry: Oh, no, I completely understand because being asked, are you sure it was them? Or you probably were just misinterpreting what they were saying or what they were trying to do. I'm sorry, how do you misinterpret some of these hand down your shirt or them having an erection in front of you? Or you being asked how much alcohol you had consumed, or why you were even there. None of those are relevant. The bottom line is, they didn’t Ask for consent. I'm not the problem here. The offender is.
 
Marissa: Yes, the offenders are the ones who always makes the choice to offend. They are the one who have the choice right or wrong. The ball is in their court. They choose the wrong decision, and with that choice that they made, not the survivor but the perpetrator, they should be held accountable. Because in kindergarten we learnt that there are consequences for every reaction but apparently when you are a powerful position in the military that lessen from 5 years going out the window.
 
Sherry: Absolutely. You have to play nice in the sandbox but you still have to ask for permission.  You still have to ask for consent. And when they don’t give it or when they are passed out, they are not giving you consent to do whatever it is that you want to do. Its not a hall pass per say you don’t need to do what you have to do just because you won’t get to do it like
 
Marissa: Exactly. Last question and then I promise I will let you go on with your day What advice would you give to survivors or do give to survivors that come to you? Or what’s the first thing you say to them?
 
Sherry: Well, the first thing I say to them is usually a question I ask them how are they doing? And they usually look at me like I’m crazy like I don’t know what I’m doing. But the reason why I ask that is for you to start thinking about how it is that they are responding to the situation. Then the second thing that I say to them is I thank them for trusting me with this information. Because as a survivor, as a victim myself I understand how important that rebuilding a trust with this individual, let alone somebody that you are sharing the most intimate of details with or the fact that you are sharing your vulnerability, essentially, with another person who knows personally how hard it is for you so you know so first I ask them how they are doing and make them think about it and then I say thank you for trusting me with your vulnerability. I’m not going to take advantage of that.
 
Marissa: That’s amazing and very helpful. And it’s really good for trust building especially with people who are vulnerable and feeling very violated. So thank you for doing that. Do you have any books or any pages that you would want to plug?
 
Sherry: I’m still working on a website and I’m starting to write more. So I have an article that I’m hoping to get publish soon in a major publication. And I’m also writing children’s books now about they are just like consent. How to ask those types of questions that we need to ask. About respect, and boundaries.  I’ll also tell you, since this is my first podcast, I am also starting to write my book about what I have experienced.  I don’t know when that will be able to come out, but there will be a book in my future.
 
Marissa: If you would like to coauthor on any of the, I would be honored to work with you.  Writing a children’s book has always been on my bucket list.
 
Sherry: I love the idea of collaboration with other victims and survivors. That are in the field. We have such a unique perspective on it.  If we can help one little boy or one little girl from never experiencing what we have… I always say on my tombstone, I want them to put, “Well, she tried.”
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Sherry's Video: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWGkYF5C5m4&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2WgfeLcjyyDGwQ8jEfZaEZnP3OC0UxeNpY4fktp3Mapl6vD25Horji57o
 
More Information about Sherry's Event:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/10/28/major-david-cheek-sexual-harassment-involuntary-retirement/1788337002/
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/david-cheek-retire
 
 

Healing From Emotional Abuse: FreeBritney and the Free Britney Movement

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Welcome back to Breaking Through Our Silence.  In the last few weeks, I’ve seen a social media surge related to the Free Britney and the FreeBritney movement.  To be honest, I had no idea what that meant, as I’d never heard of it before.  So, I did a little bit of digging, and was distraught at my findings.  Britney Spears, Pop Princess and icon is a prisoner of her own life.  And on July 22nd, 2020, her case is being brought up and reexamined in front of a new judge.  I’ve compiled a little bit of background information, but ultimately, I want you to make your own, informed decision about it.  I can speak confidently when I say that I believe that this is absolutely domestic violence.
 
The music industry is toxic and has a tendency to be extremely restrictive with its entertainers.   You could see that with Kesha, Miley Cyrus, Justin Bieber, Jojo, and thousands of other people who were out of control of their lives.  With younger people, like Miley and Justin, it manifests in rebellious behavior.  Think about a time when you were out of control, and you acted out in a way that gave you some semblance of control back.  I can think of a ton for myself.  Now, think about having no control over your life, and being surrounded by managers, paparazzi, and people who restrict the food you eat, the things you’re allowed to do and say, the way your time is spent, basically every avenue of your free will.  Well, that’s what led to Britney Spears infamous meltdown and the shaved head fiasco of 2007.  That meltdown led to a court mandated conservatorship, where her father and lawyer have complete control over Britney’s life.  Her finances, her access to her children, where she goes, what she eats. Her entire free will, and every major decision in her life.  At the snap of a finger, they can decide she’s unwell, and involuntarily put her in a home.  Which, I’ll tell you about, because they’ve done that.
 
If you think about it, that lack of control can be considered abusive, right?  What is an abusive relationship?  It’s a pattern of behavior that manipulates and coerces someone into doing things they don’t want to do, or disallows them to do the things that they want to do. Whether it be with violence, words, psychologically, finances and spirituality.  There are a ton of ways to control somebody.  In the case of the entertainment industry, there are signed contracts that takes away all the rights to free will. But in conservatorships like Britney’s, she doesn’t have any choices.  There is not another situation in this country where that is ever the case.
 
Spears' former photographer Andrew Gallery recently went public with a letter that he claims was written by the singer in third-person, in which she reportedly opened up about the infamous 2007-08 period, and expressed dissatisfaction over her conservatorship, saying that she "has no rights.”
 
According to NYT, her father earn a $130,000 salary for his job of being her conservator, and he was also awarded 1.5 percent of the gross revenues from her performances and merchandise sales connected to her Las Vegas residency Piece of Me, despite his daughter being the one to put in all work on stage. 
 
This sounds eerily similar to financial abuse, doesn’t it?  On one hand, I understand that someone who isn’t cognitively able to manage their finances would need assistance in doing so.  But those people typically aren’t on stage every night, with a Las Vega residency, or generally aren’t touring the world in the entertainment industry.  But a person who is functional, but has no control of their finances, and no access to their finances, that is downright abuse.  No? Financial abuse is when the abuser has full control over the household finances.  They could be the funds the abuser works for or the survivor brings in.  But ultimately, the survivor has no access to the funds.  That is a key word, ACCESS to the funds.  Somebody overseeing and managing her money would still grant her access.  She receives an allowance of the money that she brings in, and it can only be spent on approved items.  Doesn’t that sound restrictive to you? That is textbook financial abuse.
 
The terms of Spears' conservatorship changed in September of 2019 when Jamie requested to step down as her conservator "due to personal health reasons,” People reported, following an alarming alleged physical altercation with Britney’s oldest son, who is 13.  It was rumored that he was going to be forced to step down because of this physical altercation — physical abuse.
 
Spears herself has rarely spoken of the conservatorship publicly, aside from her 2008 documentary Britney: For the Record, in which she didn't specifically mention the conservatorship but seemed to be frustrated with her new situation. "I think it’s too in control," she said. "If I wasn’t under the restraints I’m under, I’d feel so liberated. Even when you go to jail, you know there’s the time when you’re going to get out. But in this situation, it’s never-ending.”
 
This all came to light on April 16, 2019, when hosts of podcast Britney's Gram, and Spears super-fans Tess Barker and Barbara Gray received an anonymous voicemail from a man claiming to be a paralegal who worked for one of Spears' lawyers. Barker and Grey said they validated his profession and believed him to be a credible source, but did not disclose his identity. The man claimed that fans' worst fears had come true, insinuating that Jamie was forcing his daughter to take unnecessary medications and claiming that Jamie pulled the plug on Domination when Spears refused to take her prescribed medication. The claims have not been publicly verified by Spears or another source.
 
According to this same source, a January incident where she reportedly drove to In-N-Out without permission led Jamie to involuntarily check her into a facility in mid-January, not April as was previously reported. Neither Spears nor her camp have commented on the allegations, and it is not publicly confirmed whether Britney is even prescribed medication. Although her now-former manager Larry Rudolph did tell TMZ that Domination was cancelled in part because her "meds stopped working." But for fans who were concerned for her well-being, this was enough to start an entire Free Britney movement.
 
Mentally challenged people are an extremely vulnerable population to being abused and assaulted.  The stigma painted against mental health, and people that suffer from challenges within mental health are more likely to be doubted, and their concerns ignored or undervalued because of the “state of their mental health.”  So, to paint Britney as mentally unstable as a means to controlling her makes a lot of sense, doesn’t it?  If they can convince people that her meltdown was due to mental illness, and not acting out of a lack of control of her life, they can have MORE control over her.  It’s honestly classic abuser thinking.  Don’t you think?
 
I urge you to think about this.  Under what criteria would someone be refused complete control of their lives.  Prison?  No, they still have the autonomy to make decisions.  They decide what they can and can’t eat.  They decide how to spend money.  They have the autonomy to make time-related decisions.  And they are in control of their bodies.   The military?  No.  They have access to psychiatric and psychological resources.  They have control over their money.  They can ask to transfer, see their families, and negotiate their contracts.  They can also leave. People in assisted living situations have rights.  They have freedoms.  They have choices.  She doesn’t have any of those things.  And she is forced to perform, be used as a cash-cow, that we now know her father was benefitting from financially.  She has no rights.  She has no choices.  She has no freedom.  She isn’t able to see her kids without her father present, and as I’ve mentioned, he has had physical altercations with them in the past. 
 
One more thing I want to discuss because this has been a point of refutal for a lot of people.  She has publicly stated on social media platforms and in interviews that she has a very close relationship with her family, and is very happy. There are several reasons that somebody in an abusive relationship would say that. First and foremost, her social media is hawked by the people who control her.  She is only allowed to say the things that they tell her to say. She has in the past been penalized for saying and doing things without permission. So that fear of retaliation and danger is very common in abusive situations.  If you've ever experienced an abusive relationship think about a time where you said something or did something to appease your abuser in order to prevent an explosion or altercation, and to keep yourself safe. It's very, very common for people to defend their abusers and justify the actions because of love, fear, or trauma bonding, which is a mix of both. 
 
Trauma bonding is a cycle of physical or emotional abuse that creates a strong attachment between an abused person and their abuser, which is then reinforced by periods of love and affection and then periods of devaluation and emotional abuse.  Our brains become addicted to the intense cycle of highs and lows.  When you’re in a healthy relationship, natural amounts of dopamine, the neurotransmitter, are released in your brain, so you can feel consistently happy.  When you’re in an abusive relationship, the amount of dopamine that’s released during the highs is so intense that you crave it during the lows.
 
Nothing about this environment is healthy, safe, or reasonable.  And July 22nd, 2020, I hope the new judge has the foresight to see that this is a binding abusive situation that they had legally forced her into.
 
Britney Spears has not had that luxury of free will since 1999, but legally since 2008, post meltdown.  It’s time to Free Britney.
 
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Healing From Emotional Abuse: Female Wrestlers and Sexual Harassment: with BCP and Liz Savage

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to the breaking through the speaking out movement podcast connection. I'm Marissa F. Cohen. And I'm thrilled to be partnering with the amazing and talented Rob Crowther of the Bob Culture Podcast. How are you today, Rob?
 
Rob: Hey Marissa it's good to be talking to you. We're doing some great work here. You know, like I always say, you've been a big help in my personal life, in my creative life, and I can't think of a better tag-team partner right now to get the hot tag other than us. So thank you again, for having me on.
 
Marissa: Well, the feeling is mutual. I really enjoy our time together, working together. You're awesome. So today, we're excited to introduce our co-host, Liz Savage. Liz Savage is an American professional wrestler, wrestling manager and wrestling personality, and a #Speakout champion based out of New York. She got her start with dangerous women of wrestling in 2003. After moving to LA in 2010, she took a hiatus from wrestling from the Wrestling World, due to an assault by her friend and colleague. She has been a huge advocate for survivors and champions during the #speakingout movement. And Rob and I are honored to bring her on today to chat about what she experienced and what needs to be changed. Welcome to the show. Liz, we're so excited.
 
Liz: Thank you, guys. Thanks Marissa. Thanks Rob. It's, it's been a crazy couple of weeks with everything going on. And honestly, when I posted my story to Twitter, I didn't even expect it to be heard the way it did. Or for it to send you kind of shockwaves through the wrestling community and the way it did. Unfortunately, you know, I don't feel people are still taking it seriously enough. And I feel like unless we stay on them, this shit is just gonna keep perpetuating. So I'm a little history as you said, I started wrestling in 2003. I have a background in theater. I have a background in journalism, and I do podcasts and host shows. That’s my variety of experience, and some has been with wrestling music, Cannabis, a whole host of different things. And I knew deep through wrestling, I had gotten involved in wrestling in 2003. In 2006. I got to be an extra on Monday Night Raw. And when I got to be an extra on Raw that same night, we ended up going and hanging out with some of the production staff versus the wrestlers. They're on lockdown. To be honest. That night, it was Fourth of July weekend in Philly. And that's when I met Dave. Dave added me on Twitter. And then he added me on Myspace and we talk all the time because I was a female booker. I booked for a couple different companies. I also, you know, was a prominent manager in the Northeast at the time, and I was wrestling mostly because my mouth got me in trouble. You know, as what happens with managers. So I didn't really think of Dave as anything other than a friend. I thought of him as a very good friend. And we talked a lot. We talked about, you know, character development and storylines. And you know, the things that you would talk about with wrestling, it was never anything blurry or anything weird or anything like that. Also, because I had a wrestling bully, I didn't really mind the dirt sheets at all at those times, because there was usually some horrible stuff being posted about me by my wrestling bully. But, you know, even then I hope that she gets the help that she needs, because a lot of her issues seem to be based around the same kinds of things that so many women spoke out about. So, but I digress. Dave asked me first and I think 2008 or 2009, when he first moved to LA to come move to LA. And the reason being is he said that I had helped save his life after he got fired because like I hung out with him that weekend, and we watched pay per view and talked. I was on my way home from New York to New Jersey. And he's like, oh, come hang out. And I was like, Okay, I don't have anything to do. I have to work tomorrow and he sounded very sad. And you know why he gotten fired, but I knew he had wanted to leave the company for a while at that point. And he wasn't happy with what he was doing because he was working on a PCW. So I hung out nothing weird happened and everything was cool. You know, we stayed in touch. You know, we hung out a few more times between then and when we moved to California. And then when he was on the telephone coming out here in LA. Two years later, though, I was working in the Poconos, winter was coming and I was like, he's asking me if I want to move to LA and I'm like, huh? Go check out LA or deal with winter in the Pennsylvania Poconos. Check LA for the winter, right? What could possibly go wrong, right? Well, Dave was working for NWA Hollywood at the time. So when people say they don't want this to affect NWA, and that he doesn't want this to set in UI, or technically already has. Because he was working for NWA. When this happened. He was also working for Ring of Honor and working with IMPACT which back then was TNA, which is now IMPACT. Which is essentially a different company at this point. But he was working with those three companies when this happened, and I considered him a good friend. And when he moved out to California, I didn't expect some major role or anything, but he said, hey, you know, I could use you as a manager on the show. And we don't have a lot of female wrestlers out there in the local area. So it'd be cool. You could like, get thrown around by Shelly, some of the other girls who have bigger names. And I'm like, I'm down with that. He's like, I'm starting a Promotion Agency, I need help. You know, you know how to do all this social media stuff, it'd be really useful to me. And I was like, cool. He's like, but you’ll have to find another part time job. I'm like, okay. And he's like, you'll have to find a place, but you can stay with me for a while. And I was like, okay. So when I got out there, he just totally turned cold. Like as if I wasn't his friend. He never told roommate I was coming, which he had told me that that person knew. And they were like, really shocked that not only did I come there, but then I was staying for a while. So that made me feel really uncomfortable. And then like he was gone all the time. So even when he was there, like I gave him space, so he could write and do what he wanted. I went to look for jobs, you know, did my thing out there, but nothing ever materialized through him. I went to NWA with someone. And he introduced me to Adam Pierce, who told me if I wanted to get booked there, I'd have to suck his dick. And I laughed at him. And I said, Well, I guess I'm not getting booked here. And you know, what's funny is later that night, when I told Dave about the situation, because I wasn’t gonna bug him during the taping, he just didn't really have like, any response. And he's like, well, what did you say? And I said, Well, I guess I'm not getting booked here. I'm like, I can't believe that. You know, I can’t believe that Dave Marquez would have someone like that working for him. And I don't know, I never said anything to Dave Marquez about it. I didn’t feel the need to. I was like, I'm not working for this company. You know, but it was just like a kind of like, a wake-up call to like, you know, it should have been like the foreshadowing of what happened. Because, like, I slept in his room because of the small apartment. And the living room was very small. It was his roommates furniture. And I consider him a friend. I am a pro-wrestler. I slept on road trips with many times having to share hotel rooms with guys. Having to share beds with guys. Never been touched. I just share a bed with my ex-boyfriend on a road trip once and he was sad. I didn't touch him. So like that kind of extent, you know. So it's like, it was very strange when I woke up in the middle of the night with his hand down my pants, and he was touching himself. And I was like, what the fuck, because we were both clothed. And there's been, you know, kind of conversation about anything like this. And I rolled away from him. I was just like, kind of horrified that he did it. I was just hoping he wouldn't touch me again, which he didn't. But then like two or three days later, he sent me this email while I was at work. I was in my work meeting for the night, essentially telling me I had a week to get out of the house. So I was on more than a week, maybe 10 days in total, I'll have to look at the exact date of it. Might be like 9-10 days, but I was after that weekend. It was really stressful. I ended up staying with complete strangers after that. I was pretty shell-shocked because I didn't have a base in LA. And I had spent the majority of my savings just traveling around looking for jobs because it is so hard to get around and not knowing my way around and not having anyone show me wasn't really helpful for me. So I spent a lot of time learning and making mistakes, buying tickets the wrong way before I learned. But like what I really learned was, you can't always trust your friends. And this was like, I don't know at the time. What was I gonna say? If I came out then, nobody was gonna listen to me. This is 2010 you know? Had some wrestling contacts locally, but it was nothing that was really holding my interest in. And there's a lot of backstabby kind of situations out there because I wasn't in the cliques there. And I just kind of dropped wrestling. And I said, you know, this is just, I guess it's just not something that I should do right now. And I actually had intended on moving home, but then got involved in social justice work out there, and spent eight years doing that. And I started getting back into wrestling due to delucia-underground. And when I moved home to East Coast two years ago, I got involved again, and have been, you know, training on and off. Now, because of this pandemic, I'm not training at all. But I started doing shows tour booking again, I started traveling, again, helping people like with a variety of different things. Whether it be helping them set up a ring, or, you know, running the back end of the show doing production, whatever. So I thought and I've always followed people on Twitter. So when I got off work, my shoot job. And I saw this on Twitter. I was like, I have to do something. Because it was irking me that I tried to say something to someone else from NWA, who I considered a friend a couple months ago, or, like, maybe a month and a half before it had. Before I came out about it. And they kind of just blew it off and didn't listen to me. But now they heard you loud and clear. I didn't expect NWA to tell him to resign, or for him to resign. That's on him. But then his statement, like in return in response to me, it's just disgusting. Because he admits he did something to me. He's like, Oh, it's not the way she said, fuck you. You didn't have consent to touching. It's the way I say End of story. That's my response to him. And to all the fan boys talking shit about me. It's like, I don't even know what to say. This is why you don't have girlfriends. Like, this is why, you know, you don't respect women. You don't respect the time of the thing to be put in. And if you think that women should be able to trust that male friend, like we have a sad society.
 
Rob: Yeah, no, I was just gonna say I don't mean to interrupt. I mean, it’s a crazy story. You know, obviously, it breaks my heart, you know, just being involved in the business, I would say from a journalistic perspective, very heavily involved in the indie scene out here, the New Jersey, New York area, and everyone has just been so good to me. You know, I obviously haven't had any issues. I am promoting their business and writing reviews and interviewing their talent. So when I see this #speakingout movement, you know, I look at it and to me, I wouldn't say I'm surprised, but it definitely broke my heart. I didn't expect to see it. There's a lot of just like great kids in this business that are up and comers that I worry for. When you saw this, Liz, this hashtag come out. What was your gut reaction? Were you like, yep, I'm not surprised or like, what was your thought process?
 
Liz: Well, the first ones I saw were the stuff from the girls in the UK, and I had heard stuff about Progress for years. And I was like, wow, and then it just started going through. And then I started seeing stories about people here in the United States. And I started seeing stories about people I knew. You know, people I've worked with. People who Okay, best example, Joey Ryan, right? I know him from my time in California. Always super polite to me. Always treated me one of the few people who treated me like I could hang with the crowd. I was cool enough for them. You know, very nice, never weird. None of the girls ever said anything weird. Other than, you know, like talking about how he acts like a kid, right? Because he's into like Disney and baseball and like, whatever, you know. So, none of the girls ever said like, hey, he's a predator. Watch out for him. Maybe they said that because I was closer to 30. At the time, the same age Joey is. But the lot. The first time I saw him, when I came back to wrestling, my hair was no longer blonde. And I was at a maverick pro show in California. And I approached him and I said, hey, you know, how are you? Do you remember me? And he looked at me with like a look of expression like what did what did I do to this girl? And it was very strange. And I commented that to my co-host this that I do my show with a Fridays. And he wasn't my co-host this time he was just my friend. He's like, that was weird. And then Joey came up to me after the show and hugged me. Like, I recognize dealers are starting to dark hair through me. You know, you're taught we talked a little bit but then coming hearing all these stories from all of these girls. And then you know, girls in the UK. Girls in the US. Girls in Canada, girls all over the place. I'm like, Oh, this is a fucking mess. He was messy and this should never have gone on this long. You know? And that's the thing is these predators build a layer of trust with their community. Matt Riddle, same thing. Like he's like the good, bro. Like I always liked him super polite, nice guy to see what he's saying that candy is bullshit, because she has no reason to stalk him. Like she is she has her career in her own right, and I feel terrible that she’s being treated the way she's been treated by the fan boys.
 
Rob: Do you? Do you have just curious, do you have a relationship with Candy?
 
Liz: Not at all. I've met her once. And I was super drunk when I met her, and I think I offended her. That’s what happens when you go to a WWF after party in New Orleans, after WrestleMania, when you've been drinking all day long, and you get to the bar and the owner of the bar just starts feeding you tequila. You know, I mean, that's the kind of situation New Orleans comes in. I was  one of my ride or die gals, we were running around causing mayhem, because that's what we decided we were going to do in New Orleans the year before when we were in Orlando. And we were having fun, you know. Harmless fun being ridiculous or was our one girls night out, we finally got to like, really ditch the guys and go do what we wanted to do. And we just went to the party and had fun, and were talking to people and we ended up in a car with Candy at the end of the night. And she just thought. I don't know, she didn't know who we were, we didn't I didn't know who I knew recognize her. But I know who she was, because she started she was like a student when I was like moving to California. So, you know, I'm older than most of these girls, I just turned 41. So I started when I was 23 going on 24. And then spent a while and then this while out and you know, came back to COVID. But it makes me feel good to see how many people are standing behind us and how many promotions are standing behind us. But it's simply not enough. You know, I feel like all of these companies need to do sexual harassment training. They need to adhere to sexual harassment, state and federal sexual harassment and anti-discrimination policies. Because if you're going to run a company and call yourself legit, you need to legitimately like, live up to the things that they asked you to.  And not be a piece of shit. You know, girls seem to have our own locker rooms no more changing in the corner no more changing the bathroom. If a female tells you they feel disrespected. Like you need to fucking handle it. You need to tell your male staff that they're not going to fucking disrespect people. Like, you know, I want to show. I'm not going to name you know, I'm not going to need actually fucking I am named wrestler. I was in a  show New Jersey. And this is a company where I used to the, I'm always treated really well. I gonna be the co-commissioner at this old school wrestling company when I first started out in wrestling, and I love this company and old school wrestling company. They run small shows in New Jersey, this guy named Guido, I don't know what his whole gimmick is. He says to me, he's sitting in this chair in the back and I'm like walking around talking to some of the greenhorns and some of the new people. And he was talking about Frank's son, and I was like, Oh, my God tripping me out, I haven't seen you since you were a kid. They used to come to my shows, you know, and now you're wrestling. And this guy says, he looks at me, and he's not any older than like, maybe 22-23. And he's like, here, Honey, come sit in my lap. And I was like, who the fuck do you think you're talking to? And that threw him for a loop. I was like, you better shut the fuck up and not talk to me that way not talk to any girl that way. Because the next time I hear you, you're gonna get my boot in your jaw, you understand? And everyone was like, whoa, and I'm like, No, I'm fucking serious. So they don't talk like that to people. It's not okay. But that's the thing. It's like, not enough people are willing to stand up for themselves and tell people it's not okay. Or the guys just let other guys do it to the girls and to each other. You know, and that whole culture is like really toxic. Sure, you can pull pranks on each other. They don't have to be nasty and disgusting. You don't have to do sexual things to each other. You don't have to abuse each other. You know, it's like, but the amount of sexual assaults and sexual favors that have been demanded of the women in wrestling, far outweigh anything that has happened to the guy. It's not to say that the things that have happened to some of the guys haven't been terrible on themselves. It just happens way more frequently. It happens, I think almost all of us have a story to tell, even if people don't tell their story because they're afraid too.
 
Rob: Wow, you touched on it perfectly. You know, you say like obviously and I think we're seeing that just statistically you know, it is the women Like, I don't know why people think that they're in a position of power. Or I always say I think ego is a huge part of the problem for these people who, Oh, like I was on this one show once in this capacity. Now you have to, and now I'm the king or whatever. But you know, you do see stories like obviously Keith Lee saying he was drugged and well, that hotel room — doesn't know what happened. I mean, that's, that's also crazy to me. But how much do you I mean, this is just like my kind of thought, but what do you think these people's mindset are at? Like, how much of ego goes into this? And you know, how much is using their power going into all this terrible behavior.
 
Liz: It's a cross between all it's like ego, power and society saying that it's okay for them to do it. You know, because society has allowed this dynamic over and over and over and over again. Think about like, Nicole Smith, like, she was what, like, 24-25, when she started dating that billionaire dude. She was married to him by the time she was like, 27, I think she was dead by the time she was 30. You know, and it's like, everybody celebrated this. I can't remember the dude's name. Everybody likes celebrating him. There's like all he's awesome for like, marrying this hot chick, she's a playboy model. And then everyone was Anna Nicole is like, Oh, she's piece of shit. She just married him for money. You know. And it's like, that dynamic has always been like… I still see guys who are like my age, she think girls that are young enough to be our kids. And it's gross. And it's, that's the power dynamic, you know, and then it's the power dynamic, when somebody is your trainer, or your boss, or has a position of higher authority, like championships or been around. Or even perceived authority that doesn't even really exist. You know, because that's a big thing in wrestling with people who give you the idea that they're an authority, but nobody knows really, who the fuck they are. You know, when I went through some of these stories, I had to Google the people and see who they were. And then I saw that these are people who gave themselves as quote unquote, trainers never even left their home fucking territory.
 
Rob: I did want to say this real quick, you know, we did talk to talk about having like that ego, or that power trip, or whatever it is, treat people this way. Like we've, we, you know, we haven't really been like naming names. But you know, I think it gets to a point. I mean, #SpeakingOut, that's what we're doing here. You mentioned Matt Riddle earlier. You know, Marissa you obviously, you know, did your homework on that, you know, I'm more of the wrestling and of the things Marissa more of the psychology and all that kind of stuff going into it. It’s why  we’re the ultimate tag team right here.
 
Liz: Wrestling is psychology.
 
Rob: Yeah, there you go. Exactly. Yep, there it is, right. But we use named like Matt riddle, now, like, professionally, like I used to, I'm not gonna do a shameless promo here, because it's not the place for it. But I would review his matches, when he's coming up in NXT. I wasn't very high on him. And recently, his performance and matches and gimmick or persona has grown and grown on me. And very, very good job very over, as we say, in the business with the fans and stuff like that. But then this whole, this whole thing comes out. And, you know, you see that he said, she said and all that, and Marissa, I'll tag in for this in a minute. But you know, we always say like, I think the percentage was what less than 4% of these accusations are statistically false. But we see him released a video a couple days ago. And I want to ask you about this, Liz, if you didn't see the video, where he admits to cheating on his wife, but denies the claims for candy. And I don't want to laugh. But, you know, to me, for personal reasons that the fact that he admitted to cheating on his wife is one thing, you know, yes, I know, you're on the road and all that stuff. But you know, that's not okay.
 
Liz: And I think she's at home with your kids.
 
Rob: Yeah, with this kid, right. And, like, I think one of my friends on Twitter had tweeted out, he admits to having low moral fiber but not having low moral fiber. It was something like that. But
 
Marissa: It was a Matt Riddle denies having a low moral fiber by admitting he has a low moral fiber. Yeah, weird flex or something like that.
 
Liz: Yeah, it was like that's the same thing Joey Ryan did, they all have been weird, like not really taking any kind of like thing. I didn't really do it, but I'm still a creeper. I need help. But not all of them said they need help, they all fucking need help. They all need to be removed from any kind of position of power. They all need to be out of the wrestling business and away from women. And this needs to follow them throughout their careers. And so they really do show that they have done some sort of restorative justice to better themselves and to stop blaming victims.
 
Marissa: The problem is that they know that their fan boys, as you called them earlier, are never going to hold them accountable and they're always going to have their backs because they're their fan boys. Right? So they have no, qualms. There's no responsibility or accountability there. And it's a he said, she said situation always. So they have no fear of getting in trouble. And that's, like you said, I think that's what needs to change. There needs to be an element of accountability. And there needs to be that element of repercussions for their actions. Or else it's just gonna be like a continuation and people are gonna continue to be unsafe in wrestling.
 
Liz: Well, if one of the people who came out about their ex-boyfriend, you know, I spoke to a Booker who is looking at her ex-boyfriend who I consider a friend. And his response to me was, what am I supposed to do, not book him? Yeah. Exactly what you're supposed to do not be like, sorry, you'd like what you did to that girl is fucked up.
 
Marissa: Right. I mean, look what's happening in the in Hollywood, right? I mean, all of the underground stuff aside, the face value things like when Matt Lauer was accused and Kevin Spacey was accused, like all these people, the accusations came out, and they were cancelled. Immediately, Matt Lauer fired on the spot, Kevin Spacey written out of House of Cards on the spot. Like that's what needs to be done.
 
Liz: That’s the problem. Most people are barely working for any big budget. Anyone? You know, I mean, yeah, some people make more money than others match and definitely been fired. WWE has made some really poor choices in the people that they choose to keep and the people who they choose to fire, I'll tell you that.
 
Rob: Can I can ask you a question Liz? Just curious, you’re read on this. You know, I, I feel like I'm a very like you're on one side of the line or you're on the other like, I'm never a stand on the line kind of person. Like that's how I am like you either do or not, as Yoda says. Very wise Yoda. But basically, you have companies like AEW, who would address the situation in a certain way. Whereas again, like other big companies, like as you had just mentioned WWE, didn't really do anything. And let's be real in terms of their employees’ health right now. That's a whole other situation. So yeah, let's not go down that road. But we see companies handling things very, very differently. Let's take because we are naming names today. Pick a situation like Sammy Guevara, if you're familiar with what happened with him and made about Sasha Banks. How do you feel you know, young guy and I'm not excusing anything young guy made these comments earlier? I guess he did — Publicly apologize.
 
Liz: Yeah, good. Yeah. From what I know of him. I think he did it trying to be hip and cool. And like he wanted to boys and see something where you see him, you know, didn't realize how fucked up it was in the moment, but it's no excuse for what he said. I mean, he's a kid, essentially. I think he's a phenomenal wrestler. I hope this really made a mark on him. And, you know, it's like Sasha Banks. I don't know her personally. She started right around the time that I was moving out of the Northeast. She just started wrestling regularly. You do know, her husband now? Oh, yeah. This is actually videos of neologisms from back in the day.
 
Rob: He does me know, he's a big gamer. And he does the attire.
 
Liz: Yeah, yeah. He's just amazing costumes. He's also a very talented wrestler. And he basically said he stopped wrestling for them.
 
Rob: Oh, really didn't know though. Okay.
 
Liz: Very talented, very talented. But I thought the way she handled it was very classy. I think that, you know, the way that he did what was right, he apologized. You know, they say they're sending him for sensitivity training. I think everybody needs to be sent for some sensitivity training. I think everybody needs to be sent for some sexual harassment training. You know, it's like, I don't even think that most people know what sexual harassment is.
 
Marissa: Isn’t that sad? In a situation where your bodies are your weapons and your bodies are your biggest assets. Right? People don't even know how to respect each other's bodies and each other's spaces. Like I find that so disgusting
 
Liz: Yeah. It is. We have to trust our lives in other people's hands, and we can't even trust them.
 
Rob: That's crazy. You say, Liz that you feel that it's not going to change. And I'm not arguing that point at all. I have seen some local promotions that are able to run right now like doing like driving shows and whatnot right now — social distancing and all that. That has hired console and have brought in speakers before the shows to speak with the talent, your thoughts on that?
 
Liz: Um, I don't know. I think it's a step in the right direction, but they all need to come up with serious business policies on how they're going to move forward going forward. Recruitment of talent, like talent, dating talent, bosses, dating talent, like, there needs to be guidelines, and there needs to be stuff that's talked about, like, for real. Cuz it's like, otherwise, you're just gonna have the same cycle perpetuated again and again and again, indefinitely. And that's what, you know, they can say and do for a short period of time. But if that doesn't keep up, what where did we go with it? And as long as these guys are still getting booked, that’s the problem.
 
Marissa: I agree with that.
 
Rob: We talked about, you mentioned separate locker rooms earlier, which I think is a huge part of the solution. Not that it's going to solve everything, but it's a huge step in the right direction. A lot of these stories you see involved the airport, pickups, you know, I've been to a lot of conventions, where a lot of my indie friends like would have to go pick up a major talent. And yeah, I hear you hear a lot of Oh, really. So your kind of thoughts on that experience as it was and how it may be should change moving forward?
 
Liz: Um, well, I guess it depends on who you're sending the person you to pick up and how comfortable, if they already have a relationship with that person. But even then, you never, you never know. I mean, I picked up people because I didn't want greenhorns doing it. And I wanted to make sure they got where they needed to go on time. So when I had my own car, I picked up people from the airport on a fairly regular basis, never had any problem, pick the people from the train station. But I also road trip with a lot of people for years. So it was like, when you're in wrestling, besides just picking people up, like you're literally in a car with people, sometimes, for five hours, one way to hang out for two or three hours, work for 10 minutes, you drive back five hours in a car with people. And it's not like you're in a car, when you're doing road trips like that you're not one person, usually you're in a car, it's like three or four or five. So like these stories and the things when people talk about things in buses, like what Candy talks about, or what Lizzie Valentine talked about, with like almost being left. In Mexico, she was afraid to speak out and she was almost left on the side of the road. Because like she said, she was arguing with a male wrestler who's being aggressive with her. You know, and it's like, and he was out in pairs, you know, where he was, you know, screaming at her in the car, and they wanted to leave her in the desert. You know, in this kind of shit, we face, it’s the kind of shit if you speak out, it's like what's gonna happen? You're gonna get thrown out in the middle of nowhere on the highway? You're gonna be left in a foreign country? There's so many different fucking things that could happen when you're on these trips. You know, and you have to be able to trust the people you're with. So it's like, it's where the whole culture needs to change. It's like women shouldn’t go pick up people they don't know or don't feel comfortable with. The promoters needs to not run shows if they can't afford them. The promoter is not willing to not book women if they can't afford to get them separate at this point. I'm not saying don't book women, I'm saying come up with sponsorship money, guys. Like, if you want me to consult and make you a sponsor deck, I'll do one for you. But it ain't gonna be free. You know. That’s the funny thing is like when people tell me, oh, I'm not gonna book you as this. Well, you you're in Idaho, and you are never going to book me anyway. Because my fee just to show up as $100 and you'd have to fly me out and put me in a hotel and feed me and drive me around and pay me. And I don't think that's happening. I think I'm realistic about this stuff. Like a lot of these indie promoters think all talent should work for $25 still. And some of these people who are getting assaulted are getting assaulted at chosen companies that they're paying to be there. They're not getting paid they're paying to be assaulted. They're paying to be used. They're paying to you know become someones use for the time being, it's gross.
 
Rob: That's terrible hotdog and a handshake as they say.
 
Liz: But that's how it looks like Johnny Rob used to take me its okay.
 
Rob: I like I've been playing in bands in Asbury Park my whole life. I know that I know that story. But uh, but I digress. Um, I did want to ask you this, Liz. I on my platform, I have so many indie wrestlers come on. I like to help them. I like to help them make names for themselves. Put them over if you will. And it's great and I have great relationships with them. They helped me with my podcast. They wear my T-shirt. It's awesome. I've had such a positive, reception. A positive experience with all these indie companies I have been able to, you know, go in the door before the again from a journalistic perspective, not being in the business, but be in the doors before the doors open. And I learned the respect, you know, the shake everyone's hand. And to me, that's what went on behind the scenes. It was respectful. Everyone was a brother, everyone was a sister. And I thought it was really cool. I saw people running the ropes. And I'm like, this is really cool. So I see this stuff now. And it breaks my heart. It makes me think like, Oh, is this like, not what it is? What’s your gauge? Is it? I mean, I guess what's the scale here? Is it there's just like a lot of scumbags? Or there's a lot of really good people like where's your head at?
 
Liz: I don't know anymore. I mean to cross between both. If you look at my interest, my savage page, I have nearly 5000 friends and no more than half of those people in person. Like I know a lot, a lot. A lot of people it's like I go to wrestlecon and like especially the one that was up here going to events like WrestleCon, going and was like seeing my family, you know, going to show here, even in California before I left. No, I met new people, I made new friends. But I have a lot of old friends and I've been getting in contact with people. There's a lot of people I really love, I really trust, and I don't want to feel that way about my friends. I don't want to have to feel like I can't to have one of my friends staying in a place where I am, especially when I'm going back out on the road again and traveling with people. You know, bringing greenhorns on the road with me. Like you say, like you like helping, bringing young people up. So do I, you know, I that's one of the things as a manager, I've always dragged along talent with me when I get bookings. I build talent up at shows, I seek out those champions that might not be on someone's, radar as a potential champion. And I represented a lot of the underdogs, you know, and it's like, I have a lot of really awesome friends in wrestling. I know so many cool people. A lot of my friends are on TV right now. It makes me really happy for them. But it's like, at the same time, it's like, we all need to work together to stop the bad people from ruining what we have, and perpetuating the stuff that made it bad to begin with, because I think that we could take it back and make it into something that could be better, and could be more fun. And could be, you know, the fans could stay behind because it's like a lot of people are super disgusted with wrestling right now. And it's not the same watching with no fans are the kind of thing that will make people walk away.
 
Rob: Very well said. And last question for me over here, Liz, I do appreciate your, your time and you more importantly, being able to open up. I know it's very hard and crazy. But you know, 2020 Ladies and gentlemen, like I keep saying. I want to ask you this, as I said very big on a lot of the younger talent that are coming up and are seemingly doing well. A lot of them do seem to have good heads on their shoulders. What can people do to just make this better for this next generation?
Liz: Listen, watch, if you know someone's a bad person, call them out. You know, it's time to put an end into people's reign is terror. I mean, there's plenty of guys out there who've gone through girl after girl after girl. There's guys who've gone through guy after guy. But it's gotten to the point where people need to really speak up against this, especially people in power. The people who've done things wrong need to admit to what they've done. And they need to not only reflect on themselves, but they really need to seek some sort of guidance through I don't know if counseling or spiritual or whatever it might be. Because you know what, I'll be real with you. I've been part of anarchist groups who call for restorative justice from within when there's been sexual offenses against members of the group for many members of the group and there was no fluff and accountability. I mean, honestly, like the only accountability that even close thing that accountability or retribution that happened was a little bit of street justice when one of the one of the smaller woman went after the sex offender and a crowd of people and basically socked him in the face about 16 times until he ran into group of cops. But um, you know, it's like. Dudes need to hold their friends accountable because you think that us as women if you respect us and you say you care about us, hold the other guys accountable. Don't let them tell stories like this. If you hear them talking, be like to shame them for it be like what the fuck dude? Like, don't let people be pieces of trash or treat other people like trash. It's as simple as that. You know?
 
Marissa: Agreed. I feel like once everyone starts speaking out and calling people out, it'll change the game for the people who are being affected. You know, like the people who, right, exactly the people who have been impacted or have been assaulted, are probably afraid for their careers and afraid for their safety and retaliation, because look what happened to you and Candy. I mean, you spoke out and then you have all of these people all over the internet, just harassing and bashing and demeaning. I mean, it's unsafe, and it's scary for people. But I think you're right. Go ahead. Sorry.
 
Liz: It's so bad. They're gonna have to take down Reddit threads because they've gotten violent about us. Yeah, I haven't seen the threads. But somebody was like reading to me. And then when I got a chance to get off work and look for the Reddit threads myself, I couldn't find them. And the one that I did find it, that content has been deleted. You know, it was like the ghost of it. Yeah, it was crazy. I was like, okay. But he was reading off the comments to me, and I was like, this is like, people were saying that I deserve to be raped. People were saying that I deserve to get beaten up. That I'm going to pay for what I did. Good thing I know how to defend myself, I don’t know what else to say. But we don't deserve this. Like none of us deserve this. And if you're idolizing these guys, like you really got to look at yourself and be like, what the fuck is wrong with me?
 
Marissa: It's a very, very big pill to swallow.
 
Liz: It's rough. The whole industry, it has turned been turned inside out. But you know what, I have to give it to the youth for doing it. Because it's the time for it to happen. And it's gone on for too long. Because when I started, there is no way that shit would have flown. You know, you look at people like Angela Amorosa. She's the best, best person to like, talk about. She was one of the ECW girls who never really was like, used during much because she was underage. But she has some crazy stories which everyone, you know, says aren't true and don't want to believe. Because they're their beloved ECW heroes. But honestly, I believe her. You know, I believe that at least like a good percentage of what you're talking about happened and knowing what happened to some other girls in the industry before me, which I'm not at liberty to discuss those stories. But those stories are out there and hearing some of this stuff scared me. Like, literally to the point and like I heard about a story that happened at a wrestling school. And I was like, should I even come here and sat down with the owner and was like, you know, I heard this happen, and this was fucked up and they're like, I assure you, that will happen again and nothing has happened like that Since then. It was at a private event. And, you know, they got the steel bombed. And if you get a girl so trashed, you can't consent, you still don't have consent.
 
Marissa: Right? If you're unconscious, or a lack of a lack of anything is not consent. If you're asleep you can't consent. If you're drunk, you can't consent. I mean, these you think that they're basic, common sense. But it's used so often as like a tool. You know, if we get this person bombed, they can't say no, so technically, it's a yes. I mean, that's not true. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
 
Liz: Yep. And just because somebody has consented in the past doesn't mean you always have their consent.
 
Marissa: 100% Absolutely.
 
Liz: You know, even if you're in a relationship with them, you know, and that that's intimate partner violence has been a huge part of this whole movement, because read a good third of the stories are people who were involved with, you know, other wrestlers or their trainers, or you know, someone who was in or around the industry. And that’s fucked up. And these are like, not like relationships that were like two months long. And some of these relationships, these people have kids.
 
Rob: It's crazy. I wanted to end it on like some sort of a hopeful or positive kind of note..
 
Liz: Hopeful note, you know, these companies are finally starting to listen to the women. They're finally starting to take some of this stuff seriously. And maybe they'll start treating your wrestling business like it's an actual business.
 
Rob: Mic Drop. Yeah, not wrong.
 
Liz: Thank you so much for having me
 
Rob: Oh, anytime for reaching out. And, you know, hopefully, you still have your passion for the business and continued success moving forward.
 
Liz: Thank you.
 
Rob: All right, stay safe. We're out.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Healing From Emotional Abuse: Military Sexual Trauma Movement: with Ret. General Robert D. Shadley and Camilla Vance Shadley

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today, I know that I've talked about them before on previous podcast episodes. And I'm really, really excited to invite Retired Army Major General Robert D. Shadley, author of, The Game: Unraveling a Military Sex Scandal. He did two tours in Iraq and Vietnam, over 33 years of active duty service, followed by 10 years working with the government as a contractor with the SHARP program. And his beautiful champion wife, Camilla Vance Shadley, who's also a nurse and daughter of Cyrus Vance, the former Secretary of State and Secretary of the Army. She's a self proclaimed gray-haired lady who's pissed off that this stuff is still happening. Welcome, guys. Thank you so much for being here today.
 
Camilla: Good morning.
 
Bob: Good morning.
 
Marissa: Awesome. So, Camilla, I know that you and I were talking about a little bit about your story and what happened to you. Do you mind sharing with us what you went through?
 
Camilla: No, I'd be delighted to. My story, for me is important because of what it suggests are the issues still going on in the military. So I was married to my late husband, Brigadier General William R. Holmes, and we were assigned down at Fort Belvoir, at the Pentagon. And we had a request for a huge cocktail party at the CG’s office at Fort Belvoir, which is about three doors down from us. At which would be attending all his staff, wives included, as well as the very key government contacts and businessmen going to the A-USA meeting that following Monday. So we went over and I went over with my twin sister, who, ironically was the only time she was on the base. It was a cocktail party on a lovely Sunday afternoon. And so we all just walked up the street. What was terrifying, as it began to unfold, was that he was an individual who was on his own home ground, and seemed to be very comfortable. Clearly, as I look back, had a very practiced behavior. Was confident that he could get away with it. And this is the four star for the Army Materiel Command, Leon Solomon. So what he did was, we walked in, and as was my nature at the time, General Solomon is a big guy. And I didn't hug many people. But he was huggable. And I didn't see him that often. So I went up and went in to give him a hug. And as I did, in the middle of a very crowded room in the center of the house, with everybody milling around us, I suddenly realized that his hands were on my breasts. I look into his face, and his face hasn't changed at all, there is no sign of discomfort. There's no sign of surprise. This guy knew how to look like nothing was happening. So if anybody happened to turn around, and look, they would have no idea what occurred. I was stunned. And all I can think of is what just happened, and how did I get here, and realized that I didn't know. But I also realize that he didn't seem to be worried about this, which made me even more scared. So I sort of backed out of where his hands were, and left to go find my husband to tell him I had just been assaulted by his boss. What made it even more upsetting to me is that in addition to feeling he was totally comfortable to do that, at this setting on the base, he goes and finds my identical twin sister, introduces himself to my twin sister, and proceeds to tell her, “Oh, you're just like your twin sister, only your boobs are bigger." Now, I got to tell you, there's something wonderful about an arrogant son of a bitch who thinks that he can do this and then confirm the assault by going to find the twin sister and introduce himself in order to harass her. So that's what occurred at the time. I did not know he did this to her. And when I found her about 20 minutes later, after I'd gone to find my husband. She was incredibly upset, came over and told me her story at which point I knew that it had not been a mistake. I have not done anything to create the problem. He was a calculated predator. He did exactly what he wanted to do. And then to be more audacious, he went and found my twin sister and did similar behaviors. What I wished had happened is that I hadn't frozen but at the time, I was absolutely stunned. Now, I would say that if that happens to you, you get violent. You kick him in the balls, slug him in the face alert officers or people around you the behavior happened immediately. Because part of the issue is, well, you didn't seem as if there was a problem. This time, if it happened, I would have dropped him to his knees. And then I would have explained exactly what happened to him. At the time, this was 1994, Clinton was president. Sexual assault and abuse and the White House wasn't the problem. So there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that I was going to get anybody that I could report to. And the only thing that was clear to me is it would totally destroy my husband's career, which was a hard one and strong career. And I wasn't willing to do that. So I begged my husband not to do anything or say anything, and that I would handle it. What was lucky for me, so we went 20 years. I didn't say anything we moved on with our lives. What I do know is that absolutely ate my late husband up mentally. To feel that he was incapable of protecting me. That there was nothing he could do. And the betrayal of trust from his immediate superior to do that to him was something that literally ate him alive. And he had incredible rage for the next 20 years, because there was nothing that was possible at that point in the history of the army to protect us. So now 20 years later, sadly, my late husband died. And I have about to remarry again, and this is with Bob, this was in 2018. And my sister came up to Meet Bob. And Bob had the following story.
 
Bob: So Gracie, Camilla's twin sister, and I meet, and I say, it's so good to see you, again. Only this appears to be much nicer terms. And she said, What do you mean? I said, Well, the first time I met you was at a cocktail party, at General Solomon's quarters for A-USA. I thought you were Camilla, since you're identical. I walked up and started to give you a big hug. You pushed me away and said, “What the hell do you want?” and stormed away. I later found Camilla and she confirmed that yes, her twin sister was here. So following that discussion, we went back and reconstructed what had happened to Camilla and Grace at Solomon's house, Joe Solomon's house, that Sunday afternoon. And as a result of our conversation, Camilla and grace, were able to put together dates, times, places and individuals, the details of what happened. And from there, Camilla then, knowing the army system of reporting sexual misconduct claims, through the Sexual Harassment and Assault Response and Prevention program (SHARP) program, I referred Camilla to a victim advocate at Fort Bragg, who then took Camilla’s story and the following occurred.
 
Camila: So we were very lucky. We had a very strong victim advocate. We had to get a private lawyer because the lawyer who was supposed to be signed to us didn't call back for over two weeks, and I said screw that are moving ahead. So we were with an outstanding lawyer, Sara Sykes, who now is actually working with the Safe Sport, which is the Olympic Sexual Assault Program. And to summarize quickly, we got General Solomon a reprimand for his career move. But what occurred as we went through the process was to me a clear indication of the lack of the military's real interest in dealing with and helping victims. So I followed the process. And in my case, because of my father, being Secretary of Army, Deputy Secretary of Army, and Secretary of State, I knew that the moment I filed my complaint, there would be an interest. And sure enough, that complaint went all the way to the Chief of Staff of the Army, the moment I filed the complaint out of Fort Bragg. And they tracked that complaint the entire time. So this is what occurred. So I filed with the C-ID. What became clear almost immediately is that they had no other witnesses other than myself and Bob, who was there to verify our behavior changed. And they took no interest in doing an investigation of the General’s career, to see if there might be other victims who, like me, had been shut down, because at the time, there was nothing that could be done. So they took longer to give me a copy of my file than they did to investigate and technically make a decision. Which I thought was stunning since it didn't seem to me it took a genius to figure out what happened. Then what occurred is they kept sending me what I would describe is aggressive, totally inappropriate missives to me, every time I asked for where is my file on this? Because I wanted a copy of it in order to determine that I would press on if the Army didn't do anything. And each letter from my point of view, was aggressive, accusatory, blaming the victim, challenging me that I was trying to go outside the system. And if I did, so that I would fail to be able to get any kind of service. And basically, totally controlling the process and the information. The only difference was, every time they sent me a missive, I sent one back, so that there was a record of just how inappropriate the conversations were. By this time, it was four months after I had filed my complaint, they told me that was really speedy, I said, I thought that was a joke. The process was not getting him anywhere. And I decided, and I'd warn them in writing, that I wasn't going to slow down on this, and that I would do everything within my needs to push this issue forward. Because if they were doing this to me, based on my family's involvement in the military, I could only imagine what it was going to be like for anybody who was in the military, was beholden to the military for career and money. And the answer was, they were going to be screwed. So the next thing we decided to do is we then challenge the army and said that we want to see the Secretary of the Army and I sent CC's of the copy all the way to the Secretary of Defense. And the Army sent me back a letter saying, “Hey, you know, if you really want to see Secretary of the Army that I can’t guarantee you when if ever, you're going to get this reviewed.” I thought, well, that's interesting. That's basically putting a lot of pressure on me to actually want an answer. So we thought, all right, we won't want to see the Secretary of the Army. But now you've said you can go faster. And I thought, here you go, this kind of, you know, abuse of power. So we had to press again. And this time, I decided I was tired of this. And so I was lucky enough to have access to Senator Gillibrand from New York, who we asked if she would take the case on proving to her at that point that the Army had done absolutely nothing. They hadn't made a decision. They were totally unwilling, it appeared, to do anything to take Solomon to task, and that their explanation for, “The investigation,” was a joke. Senator Gillibrand talked to them, and suddenly the Army was going to have to explain to Senator Gillibrand, why they had done nothing. And suddenly on that date, we actually see because we tracked it back, that the decision was made that Solomon would in fact, be reprimanded. So there is absolute proof that they were willing to basically roll me down the road for as much time as they could, do nothing, and hope I went away. They miscalculated, because as I've now described myself, is I'm a gray haired lady and on pissed. So that's where it started. So what became clear to me was that the army had a total strategy about how to deal with victims.
First of all, it was army was going to protect its predators, in this case, Solomon and a four star. Secondly, they were going to use every part of the process, which was all in writing, to be abusive, to be punitive, to be controlling, and to manipulate. And the third was, is that the army leadership was clearly not to be trusted. And it was a betrayal of trust. That I had been told to follow the system that justice would be done, and the answer was bullshit. Couldn't have been further from the truth. So what became clear is that Bob, who is the only General Officer in the last 25 years, who's actually initiated a command wide worldwide investigation, and then prosecution of sexual assault, which occurred in the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1996, was already a long term advocate for these issues. And when I said that I wasn't going to be silent. I said, I wasn't going to feel helpless. I wasn't going to be abused by a group of individuals who clearly had no interest in taking care of their soldiers, and that I felt that we needed to move forward. And when Amy Franck came to us with the value of the Never Alone Soldier, it was clear to us and our reviewing this, that as long as the army had a pattern of the last 25 years of controlling the information, the soldier, the process, and the outcome they had it made. It was perfect. You just spun around like a hamster on their wheel, and you never got out of it. And it worked just fine for them. But now, after 25 years, there are over half a million victims. And the truth is that the victims really have power, because it's the victims who own their stories and own the data. And the Army no longer can control that. And Never Alone Soldier, from my point of view, was of incredible value to us. Because it's a Grassroots Group of victims advocates, and those involved in the fight, who can now take control back that this is their story, and also has the experience to explain exactly how that system is so corrupt internally. So the value of the book, from my point of view, is that The Game at the time written by Bob not only specifically goes through the process that the Army did to try to destroy him. But it's the identical process that they're still using today. Identical. And the other issue that's important is Bob documents in his book, that when the review was done and what happened at Aberdeen, although the senior people have been telling him all the time, you did a great job, keep going right behind you. That was bullshit. And when it actually got to Togo D. West, the Secretary of the Army, he has documented proof that he told the IG, that the report that was to be written was to be changed. And Bob was to be blamed, because the last thing the Army wanted to do was to say that this was an Army-wide problem. And that if they just shut it down with Bob, then it was just his fault. And that's how it ended for the Army. We've contained it. We've basically strung up as to star we're happy Congress is happy because they were pissed off that people were saying things were bad. And to this day, the Army's report has in fact been doctored. So Bob, what do you see now?
 
Bob: Sadly, my beautiful bride is just one of 500,000 young men and women who have been victims of some form of sexual misconduct. Since we at Aberdeen uncovered this problem in 1996 and brought it to the attention of the army senior leadership. In the past few days, we've heard horrific stories coming out of the 416th Theater Engineering Command, a part of Lieutenant General Charles D. Lucky's Command as the Chief of the US Army Reserve. Followed by the tragic murder of Vanessa Guillen at Fort Hood. Every day, we see more and more of the continued sexual abuse, sexual misconduct by soldiers and their leaders within the primarily Army and the other services. What we see today is we have a program in the Army called the SHARP — Sexual Harassment Assault and Response Prevention program. We have many dedicated young men and women, senior men and women who are serving as SHARP Program Manager, Sexual Assault Response Coordinators, Victims and Special Victims Councils, that are working very hard to get justice for our victims. Many of them would prefer to be called survivors. And unfortunately, not all of the victims survive. Unfortunately, all of our SHARP professionals are not in commands where they have full command support. And part of the problem is that the military has allowed Commanders to pick and choose what parts of the SHARP program they want to enforce. And it's inconsistent throughout the Army. Camilla mentioned Aberdeen Proving Ground. The parallels with Aberdeen are today beyond the serving because it's exactly the same field crisis management plan that the Army used in 1996. The first steps were to protect the senior leaders, the three and four stars. They looked at and saying that an instance that And the press is isolated. And only to that command, we only focus on mid and lower grade leadership failures. The assumption that the victims are at fault is the 3rd Key thing. And it's interesting to know when it comes to sexual misconduct, sexual assault, rape — It's the only felony, where the victim is called the accuser. Just read the press, the press, the accuser said. And there's constant feeling that there's no change recording and military system And finally, the senior leaders are not involved in any way. I've been an adjunct instructor at the Army SHARP Academy since 2013. Speaking at over 48 classes. At a break in one of the classes, three Senior Non Commissioned Officers (NCOs) in our Army asked me if they could talk to me. And they said, Sir, we know you talk to people in high places. Could you please pass on that perception in the ranks is that Senior Leaders, Officers and NCO’s get off. Lower ranking officers and NCO’s get hammered. Persons of color get hammered. Whites get off. And I said, What do you mean by hammered? And they pointed to the bars on the window, the old prison Leavenworth and said, if you go to jail, you got hammered. So on the 22nd of July 2015, I had an office call with Lieutenant General McConville, who's now the Chief of Staff of the Army and told him that. And I said, this is the concern of your soldiers. And he just blew me off said, No, that can't be true. And so I'm banging my head against the wall. As a result of situations digging back into the 2015 and before, soldiers quickly understand that there are about four lessons that they have learned by getting involved in reporting sexual misconduct.
Soldiers don't trust their leaders, and the chain of command. There's little to no command honesty. One speaks up at one's own risk. And Amy Frank is a tremendous example of that. Amy has been fighting for victims for months and years. And she gets blamed. And retaliation works, as she pointed out. As Camilla pointed out, we were the last command to do an in-depth investigation, worldwide of all the potential victims in a command. And we were responsible 52,000 soldiers. The Army lesson learned at the senior levels from Aberdeen — 20 some years ago  — was that you don't want to do in depth investigations, because you don't want to find out how bad it is. In my case at Aberdeen, every training base in the Army had a problem. The Army could not admit that because the four star in charge of Training Command would have had to been relieved, not only was it going on in the Training Command, it was going on throughout the operational force. So that would have meant it commanding general of Forces Command, another four star would have had to been relieved . If you relieved to four star, subordinate commanders and whose next? The Chief of Staff of the Army would have had to been relieved. So the mantra of the military is these are isolated incident. The Senior Leaders aren't involved. Now, the emphasis that Camilla pointed out with regard to senior leaders, they are the senior leaders in the military, in my humble opinion, are more interested in making the problem go away than they are solving the problem.
 
Marissa: Absolutely. I 100% agree with that.
 
Camilla: And I think the thing that's interesting is to take a little closer look at the case that Amy Frank is involved in with Illinois.
 
Marissa: Do you mind expanding on that a little bit.
 
Bob: Amy is a Victim's Advocate in the 416th Theatre Engineering Command, headquartered in Darien, Illinois, and she uncovered consistent lack of care for survivors. And a general total lack of command support and taking care of soldiers. She wrote, to not only the Commanding General of the United States Army Reserve Command, Lieutenant General Charles D. Luckey, but she also wrote to General James McConville, the Chief of Staff of the Army, and also notified the Secretary of the Army back in 2019. Very little action was taken. No action, in fact, until after the 1st of this year. Now, they have they, the Army appointed investigating officer of three star general out of the Pentagon, the charge of the installation command. And so far 18 Field Grade Officers and Generals have had adverse findings documented against them. So what Amy uncovered within the 416th, and knowing her sources around the Army, this is not unique to just the 416th Theater Engineering Command in the US Army Reserve, it is appears to be rampant within the whole US Army Reserve Command, whose commander, Lieutenant General Luckey changed command on 30 June, 2020, and I'm not sure exactly when he retires. But it looks like he's going to leave the Army as a three star general. And as far as I can tell, reading the documents, he put out very little guidance to his command from the period in 2017, until just a couple months ago. So I think that this goes back to the original comments by the three and NCO’s. Senior leaders get off until the Army gets serious, and starts holding some three and four star Generals and senior presidential appointees liable for poor leadership, we're not going to get anywhere.
 
Camilla: But I think one of the things that becomes really clear is that there is a complete disconnect between the Army's pitch of leader accountability in zero tolerance. And I guess what I would say is, yeah, I understand what zero tolerance is. Zero tolerance is that three stars and four stars get protected at all costs. Two, that collateral damage is totally acceptable. And three, that we're really not interested. I don't know any job anybody's ever had, that allows for 25 years to do this bad a job systemically for this long and still get paid, much less have a job. And yet we as a country accept it, Congress doesn't seem to have that much of a problem until recently. And I think therefore, the importance of people like Never Alone Soldiers really have to be a driving force. Now, the thing that makes me mad, is I do not know why it is the responsibility of the victims, to be the ones to insist on change.
 
Marissa: I agree the victim shouldn't be the ones fighting the system. The system should be fighting for the victims. I mean, what good is our military if they're hurting each other? You know? If part of our military is being abused and assaulted by other parts, what is the benefit of enlisting? What's the benefit of fighting for our country because you're fighting for our safety, but we're not even fighting to keep you safe. It doesn't make any sense to me.
 
Bob: Marissa, there had been more victims of sexual misconduct in the Military since World War Two than there have been in combat.
 
Marissa: Wow.
 
Bob: That's a damning indictment of the leadership and lack thereof. And there are a lot of reasons Camilla, and I have written some blogs. your listeners may want to go to our website, www.ShadleyEditions.com , And look under blogs. We have blogged several interesting, we think…
 
Camilla: We say, it's fascinating.
 
Bob: People often say, “Well, what can we do to change this?” Okay, so you've got the problem. Here's five things that Camilla and I think that the United States Military to do tonight.
The prevention of sexual harassment and sexual assault should be seen as a critical force protection issue. Now, the problem we have in my humble opinion, the commander say, “Oh, I'm a Warfighter. I focus on war-fighting and is prevention of sexual assault, a G1, personnel touchy feely issue.” Well, if you look at the role of the commander, if the commander gets a mission, he or she visualizes, describes and directs what they want done. And the things they direct — The number six item, is force protection. This is a force protection, ready to go issue, and it relates to national offense. I've made that known to many people. So this is not an issue that involves women's rights, LGBTQ rights. It is important to the national defense that all of our soldiers feel safe, and they have positive command leadership.
We ought to hold our senior leaders accountable. And this goes all the way up to the Chief of Staff of the Army.
I think we ought to routinely publish a list in open source media of leaders punish for sexual harassment, or assault crimes. This can be either judicial, non judicial, or administrative.
 
Camilla: And could I just add to that. So for example, General Leon Solomon, in my case, is still sitting on honorary boards, which my husband was also honored enough to be asked to, on the Ordinance Core. Why is it that when I've asked them to review his standing with these honorary groups, which is the Hall of Fame for Ordinance, and there's another one. What is it, Bob?
 
Bob: The Hall of Fame for the Army Material Command.
 
Camilla: And when I asked that, their suggestion was, oh, gosh, well, we'd love to do that. But we have to write a REG and I thought, Okay, this is pretty much idiot proof. Write two paragraphs. Nope. That took six months. Finally, this is what actually happened. The BG for the audience come in, came back and basically said, okay, Bob, well, you're on the selection board. And this is how we're going to resolve this. Now, you've been thrown off. Thanks for talking to us.
 
Marissa: That's disgusting. So he was dismissed because you spoke up.
 
Bob: Right. I said at our next board meeting, I want to consider expelling General Solomon, from the Hall of Fame. Okay, so for that I was asked not to come back.
 
Camilla: And my point of view is, my husband suffered from this betrayal from his direct command. I am damned if I'm going to have my late husband's name up there with a predator. The Army knows that and their explanation is they can't write a two-fucking paragraph to put into their, “Zero Tolerance policy,” you know, command wide. That this is how they're going to make sure that people don't remain in? Give me a break. But this is a perfect example of what I would describe as the Cabal. Which is the senior leadership's which each know the dirt on each other. Not everybody's bad, but not everybody's that impressive right now. And as a result, that's the kind of behavior that's going on. I hate to say it to the Army, but I'm not done yet.
 
Marissa: Good. I'm happy that you’re saying that.
 
Bob: I’m in the Hall of Fame and I object to being in there was a sexual predator who attacked my wife, and also ruined the life of a good friend of mine, Bill Holmes, who I knew before Camilla did. So I am personally offended by that.
4. The fourth thing would be to make proactive enforcement of sexual assault and harassment policies and its procedures a part of the officer and noncommissioned officer performance appraisal system. Have a block or something to check whether that officer or NCO supports the SHARP program, and specifically provides some details because that affects your promotion.
5. And lastly, we think that all felonies, such as sexual assault, murder, rape, armed robbery, those types of things need, to be prosecuted through a separate legal chain outside the chain of command. Because the chain of command has a vested interest in making sure how certain cases come out. Now, the commander's can maintain through the UCMJ control over non-felony such as failure to repair, disrespect to an officer, cowardice in the face of the enemy, misappropriation of government property. Those strictly unique totally military things, but major felony should be tried and prosecuted through a separate chain away from the chain of command.
 
Camilla: Also, they ought to be prosecuted by real experts. It is not appropriate to think that these crimes of this seriousness should be taken on by just anybody who happens to have a bad luck of getting the that day. And if the police around the country are in fact got these special, you know, sexual violence teams, why on earth does it feel appropriate that the military with their appallingly terrible statistics, have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is not a good idea to change?
 
Bob: At Fort McCoy, Wisconsin, several years ago, after a presentation, a Sergeant stood up and said, "Sir, I'll tell you one G-D thing. If a young soldier comes to me and says they've been sexually assaulted, I'm taking them downtown, because I don't trust my chain of command.” The other examples, a couple years ago, Camilla and I were with a group of 200 soldiers who lived in the barracks. And to a one, they said, if they saw sexual misconduct occurring, they would not report it because: A) the system will drag them down. And they'd be bogged down into a long process not being able to move on to other assignments. And, B) they don't trust their chain of command to do anything about it. So again, what we're seeing is soldiers are losing trust and their leadership. And I think that's a real threat to national security. Because someday on a battlefield, a Lieutenant or Sergeant is going to stand up and say, follow me. And the troops are going to say, I don't think so.
 
Marissa: That's really jarring. And you're completely right. It's like self sabotage. We're allowing the military, by not holding them accountable, and by them not holding each other accountable. We're allowing them to sabotage themselves. And it's putting everybody in danger, not only the people who are being assaulted, and of course, they deserve the most justice and the most support, but it's it's endangering the entire country. Because if if something like that were to happen, and the ranks don't follow the Senior Leaders, it's really it's opening us up to a lot of danger and a lot of different ways.
 
Camilla: I think the term that actually probably is more indicative to me is Fratricide. that this isn't just self sabotage, it is friendly-fire. You are going after your own. When is that going to be taken seriously and recognize just how destructive that is?
 
Marissa: That's a really good term. It's perfectly verbalized, I think. So Bob, you have this really powerful quote that's in your book, and I can never quote it perfectly. But it was something like, you know, you're more likely to be promoted if you rape somebody than if you report rape. Can you say that quote?
 
Bob: Well, the quote that I said, “I found out that it was more hazardous to your military career to report a sex scandal than it was to participate in one.”
 
Marissa: That's what it was. That's so powerful. And that, even though I don't remember it word for word that stays with me, like it resonates with me, and it's so awful.
 
Bob: There are a lot of good Commanders, Officers and Noncommissioned officers. It should not be that hard to weed out the predators and the problem makers. It's just a lack of commitment on the part of our senior leaders to ensure that America's sons and daughters get the positive leadership that they need. Now, I know, people will say, well, it was consensual and… but my feeling is that young people make bad mistakes. They need adult leadership. And I know several cases where a young man or woman made the wrong decision, and got involved in a relationship with a senior officer, or noncommissioned officer. In my mind as a senior officer noncommissioned officers fault. Because they're adults, they should know better. Our young men and women need strong, positive, adult leadership. Not sexual predators, who say, Well, once you come into my office and take your clothes off, and let's work on your next career advancement.
 
Marissa: The visual of that is disgusting, and horrifying and abusive. Is there any advice that you guys would give to a survivor that's trying to get justice?
 
Camilla: I think that what I've learned is that groups like Never Alone, I think know have the potential for enormous power for two reasons. One, that the victims now actually can own their own case. So it's no longer on the control of the military. And secondly, because I think that since the military’s strategy is to make each case unique and alone, your voices have great  power when you gather them together. And you're able to show the patterns that we now see. That plus the #MeToo and Black Lives Matter, I think, has shifted the sensitivity to recognize that what's being said, is the truth. And I remind people, when they say, Oh, you know, you can't tell whether he or she's telling the truth. My comment back is, well, here's what I know. Victims, generally between 96%-100%. Tell the truth. Predators lie 100%.
 
Marissa: Yes and if you listen to the other episodes of my podcast I always say 2% and 8% of  reports are false reports. And of all the people that are assaulted, only 5% actually make reports. So for that 2%, small percent of the 5% of the cases… I mean you should just be inclined to be a survivor the vast majority of survivors are telling the truth. Vast majority and like you said every single abuser, every single perpetrator and offender is lying. All of them. Thank you guys so much for being here you’re a wealth of knowledge  to the insider and info I appreciate al of your help and insight and I love working you guys I’m never alone so thank you so much for being here.
 
Bob: Marissa thank you and please let all of the young men and women who have not come forward let them know they are not alone. They are loved. They are appreciated, we understand and we’re not judgmental. We just want to get them the care. That was our journey 25 years ago, which is my objective today. As we want to find out who is victimized and what can we do to get them care and so that they can do the best job available, they can, to live a good life. Because we know that being victimized with sexual assault is absolutely shattering to both men and women survivors.
 
Camilla: And Marissa I have one other points for coming obviously that is for military held the information it was difficult for the victims to understand the pattern of abuse from commanders at whatever rank. Now I think that the victims talking to each other, we can begin actually putting together these patterns to more clearly go after those Commanders.
 
Marissa: Absolutely the more people that shares their story the more dots we can connect.
 
Camilla: That’s exactly right. And each story is incredibly powerful. And for the very first time that totally changes the discussion with the military and that’s why I think that never alone is going so powerful.
 
Marissa: I’m really excited that we are going to do with Never Alone Soldier. I think that its going to be a game changer for survivors, and I think that its going to be a big wake-up call for military Senior Leaders and Commanders, who are good people to give them the confidence and the resources to hold the ones who are not good accountable
Camilla: I totally agree
 
Bob: I totally agree
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Healing From Emotional Abuse: Domestic Violence Military: With Amy McLawhorn

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to breaking through our silence. We've been talking lately a lot about military sexual assault, because it's super important. And it's incredibly common. And it's not really talked about that much after the Vanessa Guillen issue, and finding out that she was harassed and assaulted by people on her base, to then being brutally murdered, It's such an important topic. And it's good that people are starting to bring light to it. So, I wanted to introduce a self-proclaimed regular woman just trying to make it in the world. And a friend and coalition member with me, Amy McLawhorn. Thank you so much for being here today and talking with me and sharing this insight with us.
 
Amy: Hi, Marissa. Thank you. That was that was a beautiful intro. I appreciate it a regular woman in the world. That's me just getting by.
 
Marissa: You're doing more than that. Because you're sharing your story and advocating for people who might still be too afraid to advocate for themselves. So, I want to thank you very much for that amazing work.
 
Amy: Well, thank you. Thank you. And I, I have gotten to a point in my life. And maybe it comes with age, but I want to shout things from the rooftops now. And I think because when I was growing up, when I was a younger woman, people and women were not shouting things from the rooftops. And I think that's why we find ourselves, one of the reasons why we find ourselves kind of in the place that we are as a society. As a civilization. And so yeah, I'm now happy to talk about my experiences. And I find it very cathartic. And I feel very much like that, if it helps one person see the light in some way, or reach out for help, or throw up their hand to say, somebody saved me or somebody helped me save myself, then it's worth it. So, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
 
Marissa: Of course, I'm so happy that you feel empowered to speak out and inspire others. That's so brave, and honestly, just beautiful. So, I'm really honored that you want to come on and speak with me. So, would you mind telling us as much as you're comfortable with about what happened?
 
Amy: Sure. So, I was 15 years old. And living in Florida. My dad was a commander in the Air Force. It was a colonel in the Air Force and I believe at the time, he was a Vice Wing Commander. A girlfriend of mine and I were out on a Friday night and cruising around because she had a driver's license, but I didn't yet. And we saw this group of cute guys in a parking lot of a bar. Of course we couldn't get into the bar. We just saw him in the parking lot of the bar. And we stopped and we were chatting with them and this one guy and I hit it off and he was super handsome and very interested in me. And we had some things in common. And we started dating. Now, he was 20 years old. He was an airman stationed at the same base where my dad was stationed. I was 15. And we spent about three years together. His friends knew when we first started dating, that I was much younger than they were, obviously. I didn't even have a driver's license. Nobody said anything Our relationship progressed pretty quickly. And I would say within the first year, he was physically abusing me. It started out you know, small things. I mean, the first time he ever hit me, it was not like a punch to the face or anything like that. I mean, he's slapped me across the face. But at that point, of course, I had kind of already been beaten down. Because as we all know now from the literature and research that's out there, the abuse generally starts long before anybody actually lays hands on someone, if it even gets to that point. So anyway, I stayed with him. I hid it from my parents for a while. And when I was almost 17, I think my mom and dad found out. They of course immediately said that we couldn't see each other anymore. They put me into therapy, I continued to see him secretly and then continued to see him kind of out in the open. Eventually the beatings got really bad. And I mean they were beatings, like legitimate beatings. Closed fist, kicking, choking. He would choke me until I was unconscious. Many, many, many times. One time, I remember that he was beating me in the back of my head so hard that he broke his hand. An hour after everything had calmed down, his knuckles were like, all deformed on the top of his hand and his hand was swollen and already starting to turn black and blue. And he went to work the next day and told everybody that he punched a wall or something. And nobody ever questioned that. His friends, other airman, even people who outranked him, who were higher ranking than he was, but still travelled kind of in their friend group, saw him with their own eyes hit me, slap me, push me, pull me around, grab me by the arm, yank me into other rooms. And they never reported him to his commanders. They never asked me if I was okay. I remember them being visibly uncomfortable. And I remember them being like, Whoa, dude, calm down, or, you know, a couple of them saying something, but they never took it any farther than that. They continued to allow him to be this way, among their ranks. They continue to sit and work with him knowing that he was an abuser, that he was an alcoholic. And all of those other things, they never stepped up to say get this guy out of our ranks. One day after, basically a wake up to go to sleep day of violence. I mean, we I woke up and he was already drunk, and started in immediately. And we spent all day in this cycle. He sent me out to the store one night for something and I just drove away. Because I knew that if I went back, I was going to die. I just, I just knew that that was the night that it would go too far, and that he would kill me. And so I just kind of gathered myself in my car and I drove to my parent’s house. I was terrified. I was just sure that he was behind me. I was sure that he was following me. I got to the front gate; my parents lived on base. And I got to the front gate and the gate guard — I remember him looking at me with this look on his face, like, oh my god, like, this isn't good. And he just kind of waved me through. Like he didn't even I don't think I even dimmed my lights. You know, when you go through like the main gate, you have to dim your lights so they can see the sticker on your car and all that kind of stuff. I'm a guess. I guess they still do that. I don't know. It's been a while since I've been on a base. But I remember being so flustered and freaked out that I couldn't I didn't remember to do that. But when I got up close enough so that he could see me he just like was like go, you know. I drove to my parents’ house. And this is where my story I think differs from a lot of people. You kind of can see the juxtaposition of our two stories. So, I went home, I confessed everything to my dad and my mom, my dad was there first my mom wasn't home, but my dad was there. I told my dad everything. He obviously could see me the physical effects of what I was going through. And he said, “Okay, we have, I think we have two choices. Our two choices are for me to go across the street to the commander of security police's house — commander lived in the house right across the street. And I can tell him what's going on. And he can help guide us on what to do from here. Or you can just come home back into your family. And, you know, we don't have to tell anyone. You don't have to report this. You don't have to call the police. You don't have to whatever.” I said I want to report it. I want to tell somebody because he shouldn't be in the world as he is. And so my dad went across the street. And I remember it was really funny because the commander of Security Police came over and he was like in his gym shorts and a T shirt, which is really weird. You know, when you see like a commander in normal clothes and you're like this is so strange. Like it was just really it was kind of weird because it was like a, you know, it was like a Sunday night or Monday night or something and he was just relaxing with his family probably. So, he came over and I told him what had gone on that day and he said, "Okay, well, this happened off base. So the security police can't handle it yet. We need to contact the local police department and you'll file your report with them and he will be arrested and then when here is arrested. Security police, we will pick him up and then we will deal with him from the Air Force side.” So, the commander of the security police went with me to the local police station. My mom he and my mom, myself. My dad stayed on the base, I think that because the Wing Commander was traveling and my dad couldn't leave the base because he was on call. And so, the commander, the Security Police, and my mom took me to the local police department. I filed a report, and they went to our apartment to arrest him. And that's a whole other story. I won’t, that was insanity also. But they arrested him finally, and the commander went with me into my apartment and with my mother and helped me pack up my stuff. And we loaded it into the back of his SUV and drove it back to my parents’ house. And I kind of felt like for the first time that somebody cares. That this is I mean, I was super shocked and traumatized, obviously. But I felt like I had protection. I felt like I had people around me, right, that wasn't just my mom and my dad. And so, the next morning, my mom and I woke up early, I went to the emergency room on base — hospital. And one of my mom's friends was a charge nurse there. I think she was a Captain or a Major and, and she gave me an exam and made note of all of my injuries, and all of that kind of stuff. And then we went to the courthouse and the county courthouse, and I filed a restraining order and then walked down the hall to the courtroom and watched him be arraigned over video. He was released into the custody of the Security Police. And when I got home, I got a phone call from I don't remember exactly who was on the phone, or their ranks, I just know that there were several people in the room and they had me on speakerphone, and he was among the people in the room. So, I'd had this experience the night before where the commander really took care of me. And I know that that only happened because he and my father were peers, right? I know that. And I knew in that moment that he was doing this because this was the commander's daughter who just had the shit kicked out of her by an airman. And we need to do something about this. And I was kind of like, Oh, I have this team. Now people really care. But the next morning, when I got that phone call, I realized, oh, okay, so maybe I don't really have a team, and maybe people don't really understand what they're doing. Because that phone call consisted of, you know, first sergeant, a commander, and him. He was there in the room, when they were calling me to ask me how I wanted to handle things going forward. He can hear this conversation. He can hear you. I said, I don't know what you mean, what do you mean? And they said, Well, you know, obviously, we'll be dealing with it on our end. But we know that you guys live together. Do you want to take possession of the apartment? Or do you have somewhere else you can go? No, I don't want the apartment. I don't want anything in it. I don't care to ever go back there. I don't want to have any contact. And they said, Okay, well, we have explained to airman XYZ, that he shouldn't have any contact with you. But we want you to say to him in front of us that you don't want to have any contact with him. We would like to have it on the record so that he knows and we know what your wishes are.
 
Marissa: So inappropriate.
 
Amy: Yeah. So, I was terrified of this man. Speaking the words, I don't ever want you to contact me again, felt like he was going to come through the phone and murder me. You know what I mean? Like, that's how afraid I was of him. And the idea of confronting him in that way, even though it was only on the phone. And there were like three or four other people in the room. Me standing there alone by myself in my living room with my cordless, like, you know, my 1995 cordless home phone in my hand. I mean, I felt like he could murder me through the phone. I was terrified. But somehow, I said, I don't want any contact. I just kind of blurted it out. And I heard him gasp and say, “Are you sure?” And then the other guys in the room, you know, kind of, you heard. you know? I'm not quite sure what the purpose of that was. I still don't fully understand. I can guess at what the purpose was that they were trying to make a point like, or maybe that was their protocol back then that they, somebody need it to be able to testify to the fact that the victim said she didn't want to have contact with the perpetrator anymore. I don't really know for sure, but I said it and the call ended. And I kind of stood there like the whole thing. I just it was like an out of body experience. About four hours later, my phone rang and it was him. He lasted four hours. I'm assuming he lasted long enough for them to tell him about what was going to happen to him going forward. What the charges were, what his punishment might look like and he told me that he was proud of me for calling the police and for leaving him. I never again after that day, when the men in the room with him in the room called me to say, please tell him that you don't want to have any contact with him anymore. I never heard from the United States Air Force again.
 
Marissa: Nothing?
 
Amy: No, they never even told me what his punishment was. They never asked me to write an affidavit. They never asked me to testify in front of a JAG person, or they never sent me a letter saying, here's how we handled the beating that this airman gave you. And at the time, I asked my mom several months ago, because I thought maybe that I was misremembering. I thought that maybe in the months and the years after that I was so wrapped up in my own trauma and my own PTSD that I didn't remember kind of what had gone down. I asked my mom, I said, “did you ever hear from anybody again? Are there any letters that we got from the Air Force? Or did you guys have like conversations with them that were kind of out of my presence, you know, that you didn't want me to know that, you know, we're trying to protect me from?” And she said, No. and I was like, That's so crazy. And she said, that is really crazy. And she said, you know, your dad and I, but especially your dad we were trying really hard not to ask too many questions, because we didn't, your father didn't want there to be an implication that he was interfering in any way. That he was going to go after this guy, because that's my daughter, and I'm a Colonel and Commander. And he didn't want there to be this, any kind of doubt about whether or not he was going to get what he deserved, based on his very own shitty merit. That it wasn't like the commander Oh, the, you know, the sky data, the commander's daughter, and now he's out to get him kind of thing. So, my dad was very hands off. And he didn't ask any questions. He specifically told me that it was like, honey, I can't, I can't ask because I don't, I don't want it to look like I'm influencing anything. I need, we need to let this run its course. Well, I now wish that he had, because I don't know anything that happened. I know that he was discharged months later. I know that he was on, “Weeds and seeds.” For a while where they decided his fate. He had been an air traffic controller and they I guess, obviously took him out of, off of the scope. And that he was, “weeds and seeds" for a while. And I know that he was discharged. The only reason that I know those things is because he told me. Because he never stopped calling. He would leave me messages on the answering machine. He would call me at work. This is way before caller ID This was way before anything like that. And I never reported it because I didn't even know who to report it to because I never heard from anyone after I reported. That make sense? So, I was this like traumatized 18-year-old trying to get her shit together, trying to get her life together. And I didn't have a like, nobody gave me a business card and said, if we can help you, here's who you call. Nobody wrote down a phone number. So, if even if I had wanted to report it, I had no idea who to report it to. And I was so messed up that I thought the fact that I had even answered his call or listened to him talk to me, meant that like I was in the wrong somehow. And that my parents might be mad at me for talking to him. Even though I didn't I wasn't the one who called him he would call me and I just answered the phone. But I really still thought I was in that guilt shame cycle where I thought that it was all my fault. And I thought people would be angry if they knew. Not angry at him for breaking the restraining order, and the directive from his commander that you know, me and like three other people heard any of that. I thought they would be mad at me. And I think that really speaks to the mindset of an abuse survivor and a victim of abuse. So yeah, I had no idea who didn't even report it to the judge or the DA I guess reduced the charges against him to some kind of a misdemeanor. And he was ordered to serve like six months probation, I think. And the way I found out that the charges had been reduced was because he told me. They never called me to say we're reducing the charges. He's pled guilty. He's pled no contest. He's been sentenced to probation. I never heard from any organization after the night that I reported. Never. I never heard the United States Air Force and I never heard from the county in Florida where I lived where he was charged.
 
Marissa: That's disgusting.
 
Amy: And that's amazing to me. And I say, Oh, it was a long time ago, but 25 years is actually not that long ago. And I read a lot of stories and I see a lot of people talking online, and I don't think things have changed much since then. I'm pretty sure that most women who are either victims of domestic violence, narcissistic abuse, or victims of sexual assault don't have a Mariska Hargitay that's like SVU holding their hand on the way to every court. Like I didn't even know there was a court case. I didn't have a SARC person. There was none of that. And I see that not a lot has changed. Because I see story after story after story online, of these women and men being dismissed, being retaliated against, being ignored, being made fun of, being laughed at.
 
Marissa: Your bravery and sharing all that is, is amazing and inspiring. Thank you very much. Well, first of all, every single one of those organizations was wrong, not only for reducing or dismissing the charges, I hope that he was dishonorably discharged but I feel like that's not the case.
 
Amy: I hope he was too because… I have no idea. Where is I have no idea. Isn't that crazy? I'm sorry. Go ahead.
 
Marissa: No, you're right, though. I mean, and I think that you brought up a really good point that it was really only escalated and handled. I'm air quoting handled, because you were the commander's daughter. And I don't think that if you were just either a service member or the daughter of, I don't know, a sergeant,  or a staff Sergeant or something. Yeah. No, not have cared, it would have been met with Oh, do we have to do the paperwork on this? Or can we let it slide? Like, how long can we dodge this issue before they give up it’s disgusting. And it happens so much?
 
Amy: Yeah, I mean, I would like to think that that, as far as I know that security police commander was an honorable guy. And I would like to think that he would have done that for anyone's daughter. And I and I feel like he probably would have, if it had been one of his Airmen. Does the commander come out for one of the airmen? I don't think so like, does the commander hold the hand of the young 18-year-old female airman who's just gotten the shit kicked out of her by her boyfriend? I don't think that he does. And, he should. He should. They all should.
 
Marissa: They all should and it shouldn't matter what your rank is or who your parent is. I'm in good faith that that security commander would have gone to bat for everyone. The problem is, it's so much more than that. Right? So yes, people that were in that room that day, while you were on the phone forced to address your abuser, the day after you were assaulted by him. First of all, I have to comment that that is disgusting. And if that's a protocol, if it's still a protocol, they need to get rid of that, because that is intimidating and it's manipulative.
 
Amy: It's crazy. I hope that that's not still some kind of protocol. And maybe people can like, I don't know, email you (me@MarissaFayeCohen.com) or something like tell us I would really like to know whether…
 
Marissa: It's a good idea if you have experienced this, and part of the protocol was that you had to be on the phone with your abuser after it happened to tell them that you didn't want any contact, shoot me an email. I'd like to know if that's still a thing because that is vile. That is a vile, manipulative tactic to make someone feel intimidated and threatened and that's not okay. And I want to address that with the people that will get rid of that. Lay that down right now. I'm not going to be quiet about that. That is disgusting. First of all, I have to commend your dad for being so awesome and level headed when you brought this up to him the day that you came home. Because I feel like for me, if I went to my dad's house after I had just gone through an event like that, my dad would have bought a shotgun. I mean, that is that is really admirable. And I understand that he was in a power position and didn't really have that option, but to be able to take a step back and be like, Okay, so here are your two options. That's amazing. And I'm so glad you had support in that moment like that. That wasn't explosive.
 
Amy: Well, that's what makes my dad, what made my dad while he was in the Air Force, I think probably an exceptional leader and an exceptional fighter pilots, a fighter pilot, like they don't have time to like, freak out or lose their shit. You got to decide, you know, your plane is going Mach two. What are you going to do?  Yeah, my parents are amazing. And he really did me a service in that moment by giving me the choice. I had been living my life without any choices. Where I didn't feel like I was in control of my life at all. I had someone else I was the puppet and there was a puppet master who was pulling the strings and controlling my life. And my dad, Sorry, excuse me, my dad in that moment, he gave that back to me. He gave me control. And I think in that moment, that was probably one of the greatest gifts that he's ever given to me, ever in my life. He gave me back my control. And he was like, a man who gave me back my control, which, you know, if you let it get really deep into your brain, I mean, that's deep shit, right? Like, that's a really powerful moment for a young woman to have an important man in her life, give her power, give her choice, give her control. And so, I am forever grateful to him for that, in that split second that he said that, to me, was a beautiful thing. And it was the best gift that he could have given me.
 
Marissa: That's incredible. And I'm really, I'm really happy that that you had that experience, because it really, I can't verbalize how meaningful that is. And you did a beautiful job, you know, it is it's giving your control back after a situation where for three years, you weren't able to make a decision. Or if you tried to make a decision, you'd get beaten. You’d get hurt. I'm really happy. Something else that you mentioned, I wanted to go back to because I see this all the time is that like, brotherhood mentality where his people that saw him treating you that way didn't address it. Probably, in my opinion, because they didn't know how, but also, because there's this toxic culture, in organizations like the military, where they’re brothers, right? This is a brotherhood or you know, whatever and they really can't rat on people without being considered like a betrayer, or whatever. And that's so gross, and so toxic. Do you want to comment on that a little?
 
Amy: I think if I could like wave a magic wand, that would be one of the first things that I would do away with. That mentality. And I think you hit the nail on the head when you said a lot of them, maybe didn't know what to do. But I know for a fact, And I remember for a fact that there were people there around us who were older and more higher ranking than him, who had airman under them, who should have known better. Were they not taught like, hey, if you see one of your airmen like slapping his girlfriend around, you need to report it?Like that's not to me, that's not a stretch, right? Like, I would like to say that people didn't know what to do. And they were shocked and all those kinds of things And I'm willing to give that to most people. I'm not willing to give that to somebody who has 15 years in the military and who has people under them. Or 10 years in the military, you know, who has Airmen or soldiers or sailors or Marines under them that they don't, they don't know what to do in that moment. I mean, their whole job, the oath that they take is about protecting America, right against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Like, how do you not know what to do about that? And so yes, that, to me, is one of the most disappointing things about my story. And about the millions of stories that I read about, and that I hear every year is the lack of accountability, and the lack of responsibility that service members feel either for their female counterparts or for the spouses and significant others of their co-workers. And it must stop. Guys get your shit together. If that makes you uncomfortable, that is a really good indicator that it's wrong and you should tell someone. You should tell someone. I mean, if any one of those guys who saw that or knew about that firsthand would have gone to a commander and said, this guy is dangerous. He doesn't need to be an air traffic controller. He's an alcoholic, and he beats his girlfriend. He shouldn't be in charge of pilots lives because that's what it comes down to with an air traffic controller. I mean, these guys, they have a job to do that keeps lives safe. So, I don't understand why people would want to be friends with a guy like that. I don't understand why people would want to continue to work with a guy like that. You know, I never expected anybody to like fist fight him or something. You know what I mean? Like, I wasn't waiting for some like big moment where somebody like swooped in and saved me because I knew that that was not going to happen. But it is amazing to me that nobody reported him. That's crazy.
 
Marissa: It's a testament to the training. When I worked for the army, I put together a ton of trainings with other people who worked on the base with me because our trainings were outdated. They were inaccurate. All of the trainings are, are a cover your ass tactic. It's not like they were taking them seriously anyways, and people go into those training soldiers go into those trainings knowing this is just a check off a box. Especially in the 80s and 90s, domestic violence was not taken seriously. I remember reading articles, and doing research on this when I was in my master's program, about how in the 80s, if somebody called for a domestic dispute to the police, a police officer would show up, ask the aggressor, what the victim did, and tell the victim to stop doing whatever that was to make the aggressor angry. Told the aggressor to go take a walk around the block until they cooled down. That was how they handled it. And imagine the military being much different.
 
Amy: In my story, I guess it's good that he got discharged. But again, how many people don't? How much of that was the fact that they never talked to me again. They never, you know, explained to me what was going on. But my last name was still on that paperwork. Right? So, was he discharged because of who my dad was? I don't know. I have no idea. But I do know that I hear about a lot of guys doing a lot worse stuff, or the same level of bad stuff, who don't get discharged. So that makes me wonder, too. I mean, in some respects, every story should be like mine, in the level of care that I got that first night, and all of that stuff. And the fact that my abuser was ultimately discharged. But the other side of my story isn't all that different from everybody else's. And that's what has to change. My dad often says that when a change needs to be made, that most of the time, you'll have to drag most people kicking and screaming over the finish line.
 
Marissa: I love that.
 
Amy: You have to you have to force it; you have to force it. But once you forced it, and some time goes by where the change is now the new normal, the problem starts to get better, right? Because you forced the change. And now, people see it as normal and that's what's going to have to happen in the military. With the issues of sexual assault and domestic violence. We are going to have to drag people kicking and screaming, it's going to have to be like bloodshed. Like nobody is safe. It needs to be that if you see something and you don't say something, you get punished, not, “Oh, we'll chalk it up to we need to educate you more, or we need to send you to another SHARP class.” If you see something and you don't say something, even if you weren't the perpetrator, you're in trouble.
 
Marissa: You're out.
 
Amy: You’re out.You’re done, because you're not the kind of person that we want in our United States military.
 
Marissa: I don't understand if the oath is to protect foreign and domestic, why are we not protecting domestic? Abuse is terrorism. It's literally the definition of terrorism. It is making somebody feel scared to be. Why is that not taken as seriously as a foreign enemy? Because domestic enemy can live in your house with you.
 
Amy: Yeah, domestic enemies do live in our homes with us. They live in our homes. They work in your tower. They work in your Squadron. They are everywhere. And my dad is a strong believer in diversity is like, people have to understand that everything is made better by diversity. And a lot of people aren't on board with that, because they don’t, they don't understand the power that comes with diversity in your workforce, whether it's military or private sector, or your friend group. It amplifies and increases the value of everything around you. So, we can continue to live in this space in the military, where we let women in because we had to. And they're really not vital to you know, we don't feel any need to protect them really, because they’re… Yeah, they're not as strong or physically large. But you're missing out. You're missing out on the diversity that comes with women, being in your workplace. And if you don't protect that diversity, you don't protect that space to make it so that you can have a diverse space, and a diverse force, then you are weakened by that. You are making yourself weaker every day. Every time that you don't protect one of the females under your command. You are weakening yourself, and you are weakening your force. But somehow commanders are missing it. They're missing it because they're trying to protect themselves.
 
Marissa: I completely agree like the bureaucratic nonsense. It's all old school mentality and it's all bullshit. Last question, what advice do you have for other survivors to help them to heal and overcome what they've gone through.
 
Amy: My first biggest piece of advice is therapy. However, you can get it. Because your brain is not equipped to manage this alone, you really need the help of a professional. Find one that you connect with, find one that makes you feel safe. Find one that has some experience in trauma, and everything that goes along with that. Whenever you feel safe enough talk about it, I think talking about it takes some of the scariness out. Admitting it to friends and family that maybe you haven't talked about it with. Maybe they just know that you guys broke up, but they don't know why. Talking about it, the more you talk about it, the less it stings. You know, I'm sure there's a psychologist who probably give that a name, obviously. But I just know that the more that I talked about it, the less it hurt. Also, the more I talked about it, and the more I told people, its kind of helped me stay accountable to myself to not go back. Because I think that that is a real struggle that every woman who is in a domestic violence situation struggles with. We all struggle with that. I mean, women leave sometimes several times before they're finally able to stay away. And one of the things that really helped me stay away, when the evil voice was kind of churning in my head, like, go back, he loves you, this is what you deserve, right? Was that I had told a bunch of people. And I didn't want to have to be like, “Oh, no, I told you that you'd beat the shit out of me, but we're back together." That helps hold me accountable. It sounds crazy and people think like, why would you even think about going back? But you do you absolutely do think about going back. So yeah, tell people. Share with people that you feel safe enough to share with what you've been through. But yeah, just know that you can do this. Follow the advice of domestic violence organizations out there. Make a plan for yourself, know where you're going to go, and who you're going to, and know how you're going to get there. Because I think that helps, I think that I was very lucky that I could leave there and run home to the safety of my parent’s house, I was very, very lucky. And I didn't have to make a plan I just ran away Not everybody has the opportunity to do that. So, if you know that you're not one of those people that has an opportunity to do that, try to make a plan. There's a lot of literature out there. There are a lot of great websites out there that can give you a checklist for how to leave. And go there and learn and figure out how to leave. And once you've left, follow the advice of people who have been there to help you stay away and stay safe. But yeah. Therapy, I think, is one of the top things that I can recommend to people, you just you can't get through it on your own. Like if you get sick, you go to a doctor, because the doctor has the knowledge and the skill and the medicine to help you get well. And this coming out of something like this is a sickness, and you need a doctor to help you get better. It is so freeing and life can be so beautiful, and full and happy and safe. It's so worth it.
 
Marissa: Thank you for sharing that. And just so anybody listening knows if you need a safety planning worksheet, I have one available on my website, MarissaCohen.com/free-resources . It's a full checklist of all the things to pack, what to do before you want to leave when you're leaving and after you leave. So, thank you for bringing that up. We have that covered on the site. But you could also obviously look into other resources as well.
 
Amy: Yeah, thank you, I'm so glad you have that Marissa. That's awesome.
 
Marissa: The most dangerous time in a domestic violence relationship is leaving. The abuser feels like they're out of control. Which is probably why yours was calling you a couple times a month to check in to try and still have that control over you, despite all the orders and no contact. But thank you so much for being here and for imparting all of your knowledge and insights on us and teaching us how to navigate this horrible scary situation. And thank you for your honesty. I really appreciate your time.
 
Amy: Oh, thank you, Marissa, thank you for listening and thank you for Amplifying Voices of women and men who have had these experiences. That cone of silence, and that cone of shame It goes away every time somebody speaks and the more people speak, the more change happens.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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