Healing From Emotional Abuse

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Military Sexual Trauma Movement: with Ret. General Robert D. Shadley and Camilla Vance Shadley

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today, I know that I've talked about them before on previous podcast episodes. And I'm really, really excited to invite Retired Army Major General Robert D. Shadley, author of, The Game: Unraveling a Military Sex Scandal. He did two tours in Iraq and Vietnam, over 33 years of active duty service, followed by 10 years working with the government as a contractor with the SHARP program. And his beautiful champion wife, Camilla Vance Shadley, who's also a nurse and daughter of Cyrus Vance, the former Secretary of State and Secretary of the Army. She's a self proclaimed gray-haired lady who's pissed off that this stuff is still happening. Welcome, guys. Thank you so much for being here today.
 
Camilla: Good morning.
 
Bob: Good morning.
 
Marissa: Awesome. So, Camilla, I know that you and I were talking about a little bit about your story and what happened to you. Do you mind sharing with us what you went through?
 
Camilla: No, I'd be delighted to. My story, for me is important because of what it suggests are the issues still going on in the military. So I was married to my late husband, Brigadier General William R. Holmes, and we were assigned down at Fort Belvoir, at the Pentagon. And we had a request for a huge cocktail party at the CG’s office at Fort Belvoir, which is about three doors down from us. At which would be attending all his staff, wives included, as well as the very key government contacts and businessmen going to the A-USA meeting that following Monday. So we went over and I went over with my twin sister, who, ironically was the only time she was on the base. It was a cocktail party on a lovely Sunday afternoon. And so we all just walked up the street. What was terrifying, as it began to unfold, was that he was an individual who was on his own home ground, and seemed to be very comfortable. Clearly, as I look back, had a very practiced behavior. Was confident that he could get away with it. And this is the four star for the Army Materiel Command, Leon Solomon. So what he did was, we walked in, and as was my nature at the time, General Solomon is a big guy. And I didn't hug many people. But he was huggable. And I didn't see him that often. So I went up and went in to give him a hug. And as I did, in the middle of a very crowded room in the center of the house, with everybody milling around us, I suddenly realized that his hands were on my breasts. I look into his face, and his face hasn't changed at all, there is no sign of discomfort. There's no sign of surprise. This guy knew how to look like nothing was happening. So if anybody happened to turn around, and look, they would have no idea what occurred. I was stunned. And all I can think of is what just happened, and how did I get here, and realized that I didn't know. But I also realize that he didn't seem to be worried about this, which made me even more scared. So I sort of backed out of where his hands were, and left to go find my husband to tell him I had just been assaulted by his boss. What made it even more upsetting to me is that in addition to feeling he was totally comfortable to do that, at this setting on the base, he goes and finds my identical twin sister, introduces himself to my twin sister, and proceeds to tell her, “Oh, you're just like your twin sister, only your boobs are bigger." Now, I got to tell you, there's something wonderful about an arrogant son of a bitch who thinks that he can do this and then confirm the assault by going to find the twin sister and introduce himself in order to harass her. So that's what occurred at the time. I did not know he did this to her. And when I found her about 20 minutes later, after I'd gone to find my husband. She was incredibly upset, came over and told me her story at which point I knew that it had not been a mistake. I have not done anything to create the problem. He was a calculated predator. He did exactly what he wanted to do. And then to be more audacious, he went and found my twin sister and did similar behaviors. What I wished had happened is that I hadn't frozen but at the time, I was absolutely stunned. Now, I would say that if that happens to you, you get violent. You kick him in the balls, slug him in the face alert officers or people around you the behavior happened immediately. Because part of the issue is, well, you didn't seem as if there was a problem. This time, if it happened, I would have dropped him to his knees. And then I would have explained exactly what happened to him. At the time, this was 1994, Clinton was president. Sexual assault and abuse and the White House wasn't the problem. So there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that I was going to get anybody that I could report to. And the only thing that was clear to me is it would totally destroy my husband's career, which was a hard one and strong career. And I wasn't willing to do that. So I begged my husband not to do anything or say anything, and that I would handle it. What was lucky for me, so we went 20 years. I didn't say anything we moved on with our lives. What I do know is that absolutely ate my late husband up mentally. To feel that he was incapable of protecting me. That there was nothing he could do. And the betrayal of trust from his immediate superior to do that to him was something that literally ate him alive. And he had incredible rage for the next 20 years, because there was nothing that was possible at that point in the history of the army to protect us. So now 20 years later, sadly, my late husband died. And I have about to remarry again, and this is with Bob, this was in 2018. And my sister came up to Meet Bob. And Bob had the following story.
 
Bob: So Gracie, Camilla's twin sister, and I meet, and I say, it's so good to see you, again. Only this appears to be much nicer terms. And she said, What do you mean? I said, Well, the first time I met you was at a cocktail party, at General Solomon's quarters for A-USA. I thought you were Camilla, since you're identical. I walked up and started to give you a big hug. You pushed me away and said, “What the hell do you want?” and stormed away. I later found Camilla and she confirmed that yes, her twin sister was here. So following that discussion, we went back and reconstructed what had happened to Camilla and Grace at Solomon's house, Joe Solomon's house, that Sunday afternoon. And as a result of our conversation, Camilla and grace, were able to put together dates, times, places and individuals, the details of what happened. And from there, Camilla then, knowing the army system of reporting sexual misconduct claims, through the Sexual Harassment and Assault Response and Prevention program (SHARP) program, I referred Camilla to a victim advocate at Fort Bragg, who then took Camilla’s story and the following occurred.
 
Camila: So we were very lucky. We had a very strong victim advocate. We had to get a private lawyer because the lawyer who was supposed to be signed to us didn't call back for over two weeks, and I said screw that are moving ahead. So we were with an outstanding lawyer, Sara Sykes, who now is actually working with the Safe Sport, which is the Olympic Sexual Assault Program. And to summarize quickly, we got General Solomon a reprimand for his career move. But what occurred as we went through the process was to me a clear indication of the lack of the military's real interest in dealing with and helping victims. So I followed the process. And in my case, because of my father, being Secretary of Army, Deputy Secretary of Army, and Secretary of State, I knew that the moment I filed my complaint, there would be an interest. And sure enough, that complaint went all the way to the Chief of Staff of the Army, the moment I filed the complaint out of Fort Bragg. And they tracked that complaint the entire time. So this is what occurred. So I filed with the C-ID. What became clear almost immediately is that they had no other witnesses other than myself and Bob, who was there to verify our behavior changed. And they took no interest in doing an investigation of the General’s career, to see if there might be other victims who, like me, had been shut down, because at the time, there was nothing that could be done. So they took longer to give me a copy of my file than they did to investigate and technically make a decision. Which I thought was stunning since it didn't seem to me it took a genius to figure out what happened. Then what occurred is they kept sending me what I would describe is aggressive, totally inappropriate missives to me, every time I asked for where is my file on this? Because I wanted a copy of it in order to determine that I would press on if the Army didn't do anything. And each letter from my point of view, was aggressive, accusatory, blaming the victim, challenging me that I was trying to go outside the system. And if I did, so that I would fail to be able to get any kind of service. And basically, totally controlling the process and the information. The only difference was, every time they sent me a missive, I sent one back, so that there was a record of just how inappropriate the conversations were. By this time, it was four months after I had filed my complaint, they told me that was really speedy, I said, I thought that was a joke. The process was not getting him anywhere. And I decided, and I'd warn them in writing, that I wasn't going to slow down on this, and that I would do everything within my needs to push this issue forward. Because if they were doing this to me, based on my family's involvement in the military, I could only imagine what it was going to be like for anybody who was in the military, was beholden to the military for career and money. And the answer was, they were going to be screwed. So the next thing we decided to do is we then challenge the army and said that we want to see the Secretary of the Army and I sent CC's of the copy all the way to the Secretary of Defense. And the Army sent me back a letter saying, “Hey, you know, if you really want to see Secretary of the Army that I can’t guarantee you when if ever, you're going to get this reviewed.” I thought, well, that's interesting. That's basically putting a lot of pressure on me to actually want an answer. So we thought, all right, we won't want to see the Secretary of the Army. But now you've said you can go faster. And I thought, here you go, this kind of, you know, abuse of power. So we had to press again. And this time, I decided I was tired of this. And so I was lucky enough to have access to Senator Gillibrand from New York, who we asked if she would take the case on proving to her at that point that the Army had done absolutely nothing. They hadn't made a decision. They were totally unwilling, it appeared, to do anything to take Solomon to task, and that their explanation for, “The investigation,” was a joke. Senator Gillibrand talked to them, and suddenly the Army was going to have to explain to Senator Gillibrand, why they had done nothing. And suddenly on that date, we actually see because we tracked it back, that the decision was made that Solomon would in fact, be reprimanded. So there is absolute proof that they were willing to basically roll me down the road for as much time as they could, do nothing, and hope I went away. They miscalculated, because as I've now described myself, is I'm a gray haired lady and on pissed. So that's where it started. So what became clear to me was that the army had a total strategy about how to deal with victims.
First of all, it was army was going to protect its predators, in this case, Solomon and a four star. Secondly, they were going to use every part of the process, which was all in writing, to be abusive, to be punitive, to be controlling, and to manipulate. And the third was, is that the army leadership was clearly not to be trusted. And it was a betrayal of trust. That I had been told to follow the system that justice would be done, and the answer was bullshit. Couldn't have been further from the truth. So what became clear is that Bob, who is the only General Officer in the last 25 years, who's actually initiated a command wide worldwide investigation, and then prosecution of sexual assault, which occurred in the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in 1996, was already a long term advocate for these issues. And when I said that I wasn't going to be silent. I said, I wasn't going to feel helpless. I wasn't going to be abused by a group of individuals who clearly had no interest in taking care of their soldiers, and that I felt that we needed to move forward. And when Amy Franck came to us with the value of the Never Alone Soldier, it was clear to us and our reviewing this, that as long as the army had a pattern of the last 25 years of controlling the information, the soldier, the process, and the outcome they had it made. It was perfect. You just spun around like a hamster on their wheel, and you never got out of it. And it worked just fine for them. But now, after 25 years, there are over half a million victims. And the truth is that the victims really have power, because it's the victims who own their stories and own the data. And the Army no longer can control that. And Never Alone Soldier, from my point of view, was of incredible value to us. Because it's a Grassroots Group of victims advocates, and those involved in the fight, who can now take control back that this is their story, and also has the experience to explain exactly how that system is so corrupt internally. So the value of the book, from my point of view, is that The Game at the time written by Bob not only specifically goes through the process that the Army did to try to destroy him. But it's the identical process that they're still using today. Identical. And the other issue that's important is Bob documents in his book, that when the review was done and what happened at Aberdeen, although the senior people have been telling him all the time, you did a great job, keep going right behind you. That was bullshit. And when it actually got to Togo D. West, the Secretary of the Army, he has documented proof that he told the IG, that the report that was to be written was to be changed. And Bob was to be blamed, because the last thing the Army wanted to do was to say that this was an Army-wide problem. And that if they just shut it down with Bob, then it was just his fault. And that's how it ended for the Army. We've contained it. We've basically strung up as to star we're happy Congress is happy because they were pissed off that people were saying things were bad. And to this day, the Army's report has in fact been doctored. So Bob, what do you see now?
 
Bob: Sadly, my beautiful bride is just one of 500,000 young men and women who have been victims of some form of sexual misconduct. Since we at Aberdeen uncovered this problem in 1996 and brought it to the attention of the army senior leadership. In the past few days, we've heard horrific stories coming out of the 416th Theater Engineering Command, a part of Lieutenant General Charles D. Lucky's Command as the Chief of the US Army Reserve. Followed by the tragic murder of Vanessa Guillen at Fort Hood. Every day, we see more and more of the continued sexual abuse, sexual misconduct by soldiers and their leaders within the primarily Army and the other services. What we see today is we have a program in the Army called the SHARP — Sexual Harassment Assault and Response Prevention program. We have many dedicated young men and women, senior men and women who are serving as SHARP Program Manager, Sexual Assault Response Coordinators, Victims and Special Victims Councils, that are working very hard to get justice for our victims. Many of them would prefer to be called survivors. And unfortunately, not all of the victims survive. Unfortunately, all of our SHARP professionals are not in commands where they have full command support. And part of the problem is that the military has allowed Commanders to pick and choose what parts of the SHARP program they want to enforce. And it's inconsistent throughout the Army. Camilla mentioned Aberdeen Proving Ground. The parallels with Aberdeen are today beyond the serving because it's exactly the same field crisis management plan that the Army used in 1996. The first steps were to protect the senior leaders, the three and four stars. They looked at and saying that an instance that And the press is isolated. And only to that command, we only focus on mid and lower grade leadership failures. The assumption that the victims are at fault is the 3rd Key thing. And it's interesting to know when it comes to sexual misconduct, sexual assault, rape — It's the only felony, where the victim is called the accuser. Just read the press, the press, the accuser said. And there's constant feeling that there's no change recording and military system And finally, the senior leaders are not involved in any way. I've been an adjunct instructor at the Army SHARP Academy since 2013. Speaking at over 48 classes. At a break in one of the classes, three Senior Non Commissioned Officers (NCOs) in our Army asked me if they could talk to me. And they said, Sir, we know you talk to people in high places. Could you please pass on that perception in the ranks is that Senior Leaders, Officers and NCO’s get off. Lower ranking officers and NCO’s get hammered. Persons of color get hammered. Whites get off. And I said, What do you mean by hammered? And they pointed to the bars on the window, the old prison Leavenworth and said, if you go to jail, you got hammered. So on the 22nd of July 2015, I had an office call with Lieutenant General McConville, who's now the Chief of Staff of the Army and told him that. And I said, this is the concern of your soldiers. And he just blew me off said, No, that can't be true. And so I'm banging my head against the wall. As a result of situations digging back into the 2015 and before, soldiers quickly understand that there are about four lessons that they have learned by getting involved in reporting sexual misconduct.
Soldiers don't trust their leaders, and the chain of command. There's little to no command honesty. One speaks up at one's own risk. And Amy Frank is a tremendous example of that. Amy has been fighting for victims for months and years. And she gets blamed. And retaliation works, as she pointed out. As Camilla pointed out, we were the last command to do an in-depth investigation, worldwide of all the potential victims in a command. And we were responsible 52,000 soldiers. The Army lesson learned at the senior levels from Aberdeen — 20 some years ago  — was that you don't want to do in depth investigations, because you don't want to find out how bad it is. In my case at Aberdeen, every training base in the Army had a problem. The Army could not admit that because the four star in charge of Training Command would have had to been relieved, not only was it going on in the Training Command, it was going on throughout the operational force. So that would have meant it commanding general of Forces Command, another four star would have had to been relieved . If you relieved to four star, subordinate commanders and whose next? The Chief of Staff of the Army would have had to been relieved. So the mantra of the military is these are isolated incident. The Senior Leaders aren't involved. Now, the emphasis that Camilla pointed out with regard to senior leaders, they are the senior leaders in the military, in my humble opinion, are more interested in making the problem go away than they are solving the problem.
 
Marissa: Absolutely. I 100% agree with that.
 
Camilla: And I think the thing that's interesting is to take a little closer look at the case that Amy Frank is involved in with Illinois.
 
Marissa: Do you mind expanding on that a little bit.
 
Bob: Amy is a Victim's Advocate in the 416th Theatre Engineering Command, headquartered in Darien, Illinois, and she uncovered consistent lack of care for survivors. And a general total lack of command support and taking care of soldiers. She wrote, to not only the Commanding General of the United States Army Reserve Command, Lieutenant General Charles D. Luckey, but she also wrote to General James McConville, the Chief of Staff of the Army, and also notified the Secretary of the Army back in 2019. Very little action was taken. No action, in fact, until after the 1st of this year. Now, they have they, the Army appointed investigating officer of three star general out of the Pentagon, the charge of the installation command. And so far 18 Field Grade Officers and Generals have had adverse findings documented against them. So what Amy uncovered within the 416th, and knowing her sources around the Army, this is not unique to just the 416th Theater Engineering Command in the US Army Reserve, it is appears to be rampant within the whole US Army Reserve Command, whose commander, Lieutenant General Luckey changed command on 30 June, 2020, and I'm not sure exactly when he retires. But it looks like he's going to leave the Army as a three star general. And as far as I can tell, reading the documents, he put out very little guidance to his command from the period in 2017, until just a couple months ago. So I think that this goes back to the original comments by the three and NCO’s. Senior leaders get off until the Army gets serious, and starts holding some three and four star Generals and senior presidential appointees liable for poor leadership, we're not going to get anywhere.
 
Camilla: But I think one of the things that becomes really clear is that there is a complete disconnect between the Army's pitch of leader accountability in zero tolerance. And I guess what I would say is, yeah, I understand what zero tolerance is. Zero tolerance is that three stars and four stars get protected at all costs. Two, that collateral damage is totally acceptable. And three, that we're really not interested. I don't know any job anybody's ever had, that allows for 25 years to do this bad a job systemically for this long and still get paid, much less have a job. And yet we as a country accept it, Congress doesn't seem to have that much of a problem until recently. And I think therefore, the importance of people like Never Alone Soldiers really have to be a driving force. Now, the thing that makes me mad, is I do not know why it is the responsibility of the victims, to be the ones to insist on change.
 
Marissa: I agree the victim shouldn't be the ones fighting the system. The system should be fighting for the victims. I mean, what good is our military if they're hurting each other? You know? If part of our military is being abused and assaulted by other parts, what is the benefit of enlisting? What's the benefit of fighting for our country because you're fighting for our safety, but we're not even fighting to keep you safe. It doesn't make any sense to me.
 
Bob: Marissa, there had been more victims of sexual misconduct in the Military since World War Two than there have been in combat.
 
Marissa: Wow.
 
Bob: That's a damning indictment of the leadership and lack thereof. And there are a lot of reasons Camilla, and I have written some blogs. your listeners may want to go to our website, www.ShadleyEditions.com , And look under blogs. We have blogged several interesting, we think…
 
Camilla: We say, it's fascinating.
 
Bob: People often say, “Well, what can we do to change this?” Okay, so you've got the problem. Here's five things that Camilla and I think that the United States Military to do tonight.
The prevention of sexual harassment and sexual assault should be seen as a critical force protection issue. Now, the problem we have in my humble opinion, the commander say, “Oh, I'm a Warfighter. I focus on war-fighting and is prevention of sexual assault, a G1, personnel touchy feely issue.” Well, if you look at the role of the commander, if the commander gets a mission, he or she visualizes, describes and directs what they want done. And the things they direct — The number six item, is force protection. This is a force protection, ready to go issue, and it relates to national offense. I've made that known to many people. So this is not an issue that involves women's rights, LGBTQ rights. It is important to the national defense that all of our soldiers feel safe, and they have positive command leadership.
We ought to hold our senior leaders accountable. And this goes all the way up to the Chief of Staff of the Army.
I think we ought to routinely publish a list in open source media of leaders punish for sexual harassment, or assault crimes. This can be either judicial, non judicial, or administrative.
 
Camilla: And could I just add to that. So for example, General Leon Solomon, in my case, is still sitting on honorary boards, which my husband was also honored enough to be asked to, on the Ordinance Core. Why is it that when I've asked them to review his standing with these honorary groups, which is the Hall of Fame for Ordinance, and there's another one. What is it, Bob?
 
Bob: The Hall of Fame for the Army Material Command.
 
Camilla: And when I asked that, their suggestion was, oh, gosh, well, we'd love to do that. But we have to write a REG and I thought, Okay, this is pretty much idiot proof. Write two paragraphs. Nope. That took six months. Finally, this is what actually happened. The BG for the audience come in, came back and basically said, okay, Bob, well, you're on the selection board. And this is how we're going to resolve this. Now, you've been thrown off. Thanks for talking to us.
 
Marissa: That's disgusting. So he was dismissed because you spoke up.
 
Bob: Right. I said at our next board meeting, I want to consider expelling General Solomon, from the Hall of Fame. Okay, so for that I was asked not to come back.
 
Camilla: And my point of view is, my husband suffered from this betrayal from his direct command. I am damned if I'm going to have my late husband's name up there with a predator. The Army knows that and their explanation is they can't write a two-fucking paragraph to put into their, “Zero Tolerance policy,” you know, command wide. That this is how they're going to make sure that people don't remain in? Give me a break. But this is a perfect example of what I would describe as the Cabal. Which is the senior leadership's which each know the dirt on each other. Not everybody's bad, but not everybody's that impressive right now. And as a result, that's the kind of behavior that's going on. I hate to say it to the Army, but I'm not done yet.
 
Marissa: Good. I'm happy that you’re saying that.
 
Bob: I’m in the Hall of Fame and I object to being in there was a sexual predator who attacked my wife, and also ruined the life of a good friend of mine, Bill Holmes, who I knew before Camilla did. So I am personally offended by that.
4. The fourth thing would be to make proactive enforcement of sexual assault and harassment policies and its procedures a part of the officer and noncommissioned officer performance appraisal system. Have a block or something to check whether that officer or NCO supports the SHARP program, and specifically provides some details because that affects your promotion.
5. And lastly, we think that all felonies, such as sexual assault, murder, rape, armed robbery, those types of things need, to be prosecuted through a separate legal chain outside the chain of command. Because the chain of command has a vested interest in making sure how certain cases come out. Now, the commander's can maintain through the UCMJ control over non-felony such as failure to repair, disrespect to an officer, cowardice in the face of the enemy, misappropriation of government property. Those strictly unique totally military things, but major felony should be tried and prosecuted through a separate chain away from the chain of command.
 
Camilla: Also, they ought to be prosecuted by real experts. It is not appropriate to think that these crimes of this seriousness should be taken on by just anybody who happens to have a bad luck of getting the that day. And if the police around the country are in fact got these special, you know, sexual violence teams, why on earth does it feel appropriate that the military with their appallingly terrible statistics, have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is not a good idea to change?
 
Bob: At Fort McCoy, Wisconsin, several years ago, after a presentation, a Sergeant stood up and said, "Sir, I'll tell you one G-D thing. If a young soldier comes to me and says they've been sexually assaulted, I'm taking them downtown, because I don't trust my chain of command.” The other examples, a couple years ago, Camilla and I were with a group of 200 soldiers who lived in the barracks. And to a one, they said, if they saw sexual misconduct occurring, they would not report it because: A) the system will drag them down. And they'd be bogged down into a long process not being able to move on to other assignments. And, B) they don't trust their chain of command to do anything about it. So again, what we're seeing is soldiers are losing trust and their leadership. And I think that's a real threat to national security. Because someday on a battlefield, a Lieutenant or Sergeant is going to stand up and say, follow me. And the troops are going to say, I don't think so.
 
Marissa: That's really jarring. And you're completely right. It's like self sabotage. We're allowing the military, by not holding them accountable, and by them not holding each other accountable. We're allowing them to sabotage themselves. And it's putting everybody in danger, not only the people who are being assaulted, and of course, they deserve the most justice and the most support, but it's it's endangering the entire country. Because if if something like that were to happen, and the ranks don't follow the Senior Leaders, it's really it's opening us up to a lot of danger and a lot of different ways.
 
Camilla: I think the term that actually probably is more indicative to me is Fratricide. that this isn't just self sabotage, it is friendly-fire. You are going after your own. When is that going to be taken seriously and recognize just how destructive that is?
 
Marissa: That's a really good term. It's perfectly verbalized, I think. So Bob, you have this really powerful quote that's in your book, and I can never quote it perfectly. But it was something like, you know, you're more likely to be promoted if you rape somebody than if you report rape. Can you say that quote?
 
Bob: Well, the quote that I said, “I found out that it was more hazardous to your military career to report a sex scandal than it was to participate in one.”
 
Marissa: That's what it was. That's so powerful. And that, even though I don't remember it word for word that stays with me, like it resonates with me, and it's so awful.
 
Bob: There are a lot of good Commanders, Officers and Noncommissioned officers. It should not be that hard to weed out the predators and the problem makers. It's just a lack of commitment on the part of our senior leaders to ensure that America's sons and daughters get the positive leadership that they need. Now, I know, people will say, well, it was consensual and… but my feeling is that young people make bad mistakes. They need adult leadership. And I know several cases where a young man or woman made the wrong decision, and got involved in a relationship with a senior officer, or noncommissioned officer. In my mind as a senior officer noncommissioned officers fault. Because they're adults, they should know better. Our young men and women need strong, positive, adult leadership. Not sexual predators, who say, Well, once you come into my office and take your clothes off, and let's work on your next career advancement.
 
Marissa: The visual of that is disgusting, and horrifying and abusive. Is there any advice that you guys would give to a survivor that's trying to get justice?
 
Camilla: I think that what I've learned is that groups like Never Alone, I think know have the potential for enormous power for two reasons. One, that the victims now actually can own their own case. So it's no longer on the control of the military. And secondly, because I think that since the military’s strategy is to make each case unique and alone, your voices have great  power when you gather them together. And you're able to show the patterns that we now see. That plus the #MeToo and Black Lives Matter, I think, has shifted the sensitivity to recognize that what's being said, is the truth. And I remind people, when they say, Oh, you know, you can't tell whether he or she's telling the truth. My comment back is, well, here's what I know. Victims, generally between 96%-100%. Tell the truth. Predators lie 100%.
 
Marissa: Yes and if you listen to the other episodes of my podcast I always say 2% and 8% of  reports are false reports. And of all the people that are assaulted, only 5% actually make reports. So for that 2%, small percent of the 5% of the cases… I mean you should just be inclined to be a survivor the vast majority of survivors are telling the truth. Vast majority and like you said every single abuser, every single perpetrator and offender is lying. All of them. Thank you guys so much for being here you’re a wealth of knowledge  to the insider and info I appreciate al of your help and insight and I love working you guys I’m never alone so thank you so much for being here.
 
Bob: Marissa thank you and please let all of the young men and women who have not come forward let them know they are not alone. They are loved. They are appreciated, we understand and we’re not judgmental. We just want to get them the care. That was our journey 25 years ago, which is my objective today. As we want to find out who is victimized and what can we do to get them care and so that they can do the best job available, they can, to live a good life. Because we know that being victimized with sexual assault is absolutely shattering to both men and women survivors.
 
Camilla: And Marissa I have one other points for coming obviously that is for military held the information it was difficult for the victims to understand the pattern of abuse from commanders at whatever rank. Now I think that the victims talking to each other, we can begin actually putting together these patterns to more clearly go after those Commanders.
 
Marissa: Absolutely the more people that shares their story the more dots we can connect.
 
Camilla: That’s exactly right. And each story is incredibly powerful. And for the very first time that totally changes the discussion with the military and that’s why I think that never alone is going so powerful.
 
Marissa: I’m really excited that we are going to do with Never Alone Soldier. I think that its going to be a game changer for survivors, and I think that its going to be a big wake-up call for military Senior Leaders and Commanders, who are good people to give them the confidence and the resources to hold the ones who are not good accountable
Camilla: I totally agree
 
Bob: I totally agree
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Healing From Emotional Abuse: Domestic Violence Military: With Amy McLawhorn

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to breaking through our silence. We've been talking lately a lot about military sexual assault, because it's super important. And it's incredibly common. And it's not really talked about that much after the Vanessa Guillen issue, and finding out that she was harassed and assaulted by people on her base, to then being brutally murdered, It's such an important topic. And it's good that people are starting to bring light to it. So, I wanted to introduce a self-proclaimed regular woman just trying to make it in the world. And a friend and coalition member with me, Amy McLawhorn. Thank you so much for being here today and talking with me and sharing this insight with us.
 
Amy: Hi, Marissa. Thank you. That was that was a beautiful intro. I appreciate it a regular woman in the world. That's me just getting by.
 
Marissa: You're doing more than that. Because you're sharing your story and advocating for people who might still be too afraid to advocate for themselves. So, I want to thank you very much for that amazing work.
 
Amy: Well, thank you. Thank you. And I, I have gotten to a point in my life. And maybe it comes with age, but I want to shout things from the rooftops now. And I think because when I was growing up, when I was a younger woman, people and women were not shouting things from the rooftops. And I think that's why we find ourselves, one of the reasons why we find ourselves kind of in the place that we are as a society. As a civilization. And so yeah, I'm now happy to talk about my experiences. And I find it very cathartic. And I feel very much like that, if it helps one person see the light in some way, or reach out for help, or throw up their hand to say, somebody saved me or somebody helped me save myself, then it's worth it. So, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
 
Marissa: Of course, I'm so happy that you feel empowered to speak out and inspire others. That's so brave, and honestly, just beautiful. So, I'm really honored that you want to come on and speak with me. So, would you mind telling us as much as you're comfortable with about what happened?
 
Amy: Sure. So, I was 15 years old. And living in Florida. My dad was a commander in the Air Force. It was a colonel in the Air Force and I believe at the time, he was a Vice Wing Commander. A girlfriend of mine and I were out on a Friday night and cruising around because she had a driver's license, but I didn't yet. And we saw this group of cute guys in a parking lot of a bar. Of course we couldn't get into the bar. We just saw him in the parking lot of the bar. And we stopped and we were chatting with them and this one guy and I hit it off and he was super handsome and very interested in me. And we had some things in common. And we started dating. Now, he was 20 years old. He was an airman stationed at the same base where my dad was stationed. I was 15. And we spent about three years together. His friends knew when we first started dating, that I was much younger than they were, obviously. I didn't even have a driver's license. Nobody said anything Our relationship progressed pretty quickly. And I would say within the first year, he was physically abusing me. It started out you know, small things. I mean, the first time he ever hit me, it was not like a punch to the face or anything like that. I mean, he's slapped me across the face. But at that point, of course, I had kind of already been beaten down. Because as we all know now from the literature and research that's out there, the abuse generally starts long before anybody actually lays hands on someone, if it even gets to that point. So anyway, I stayed with him. I hid it from my parents for a while. And when I was almost 17, I think my mom and dad found out. They of course immediately said that we couldn't see each other anymore. They put me into therapy, I continued to see him secretly and then continued to see him kind of out in the open. Eventually the beatings got really bad. And I mean they were beatings, like legitimate beatings. Closed fist, kicking, choking. He would choke me until I was unconscious. Many, many, many times. One time, I remember that he was beating me in the back of my head so hard that he broke his hand. An hour after everything had calmed down, his knuckles were like, all deformed on the top of his hand and his hand was swollen and already starting to turn black and blue. And he went to work the next day and told everybody that he punched a wall or something. And nobody ever questioned that. His friends, other airman, even people who outranked him, who were higher ranking than he was, but still travelled kind of in their friend group, saw him with their own eyes hit me, slap me, push me, pull me around, grab me by the arm, yank me into other rooms. And they never reported him to his commanders. They never asked me if I was okay. I remember them being visibly uncomfortable. And I remember them being like, Whoa, dude, calm down, or, you know, a couple of them saying something, but they never took it any farther than that. They continued to allow him to be this way, among their ranks. They continue to sit and work with him knowing that he was an abuser, that he was an alcoholic. And all of those other things, they never stepped up to say get this guy out of our ranks. One day after, basically a wake up to go to sleep day of violence. I mean, we I woke up and he was already drunk, and started in immediately. And we spent all day in this cycle. He sent me out to the store one night for something and I just drove away. Because I knew that if I went back, I was going to die. I just, I just knew that that was the night that it would go too far, and that he would kill me. And so I just kind of gathered myself in my car and I drove to my parent’s house. I was terrified. I was just sure that he was behind me. I was sure that he was following me. I got to the front gate; my parents lived on base. And I got to the front gate and the gate guard — I remember him looking at me with this look on his face, like, oh my god, like, this isn't good. And he just kind of waved me through. Like he didn't even I don't think I even dimmed my lights. You know, when you go through like the main gate, you have to dim your lights so they can see the sticker on your car and all that kind of stuff. I'm a guess. I guess they still do that. I don't know. It's been a while since I've been on a base. But I remember being so flustered and freaked out that I couldn't I didn't remember to do that. But when I got up close enough so that he could see me he just like was like go, you know. I drove to my parents’ house. And this is where my story I think differs from a lot of people. You kind of can see the juxtaposition of our two stories. So, I went home, I confessed everything to my dad and my mom, my dad was there first my mom wasn't home, but my dad was there. I told my dad everything. He obviously could see me the physical effects of what I was going through. And he said, “Okay, we have, I think we have two choices. Our two choices are for me to go across the street to the commander of security police's house — commander lived in the house right across the street. And I can tell him what's going on. And he can help guide us on what to do from here. Or you can just come home back into your family. And, you know, we don't have to tell anyone. You don't have to report this. You don't have to call the police. You don't have to whatever.” I said I want to report it. I want to tell somebody because he shouldn't be in the world as he is. And so my dad went across the street. And I remember it was really funny because the commander of Security Police came over and he was like in his gym shorts and a T shirt, which is really weird. You know, when you see like a commander in normal clothes and you're like this is so strange. Like it was just really it was kind of weird because it was like a, you know, it was like a Sunday night or Monday night or something and he was just relaxing with his family probably. So, he came over and I told him what had gone on that day and he said, "Okay, well, this happened off base. So the security police can't handle it yet. We need to contact the local police department and you'll file your report with them and he will be arrested and then when here is arrested. Security police, we will pick him up and then we will deal with him from the Air Force side.” So, the commander of the security police went with me to the local police station. My mom he and my mom, myself. My dad stayed on the base, I think that because the Wing Commander was traveling and my dad couldn't leave the base because he was on call. And so, the commander, the Security Police, and my mom took me to the local police department. I filed a report, and they went to our apartment to arrest him. And that's a whole other story. I won’t, that was insanity also. But they arrested him finally, and the commander went with me into my apartment and with my mother and helped me pack up my stuff. And we loaded it into the back of his SUV and drove it back to my parents’ house. And I kind of felt like for the first time that somebody cares. That this is I mean, I was super shocked and traumatized, obviously. But I felt like I had protection. I felt like I had people around me, right, that wasn't just my mom and my dad. And so, the next morning, my mom and I woke up early, I went to the emergency room on base — hospital. And one of my mom's friends was a charge nurse there. I think she was a Captain or a Major and, and she gave me an exam and made note of all of my injuries, and all of that kind of stuff. And then we went to the courthouse and the county courthouse, and I filed a restraining order and then walked down the hall to the courtroom and watched him be arraigned over video. He was released into the custody of the Security Police. And when I got home, I got a phone call from I don't remember exactly who was on the phone, or their ranks, I just know that there were several people in the room and they had me on speakerphone, and he was among the people in the room. So, I'd had this experience the night before where the commander really took care of me. And I know that that only happened because he and my father were peers, right? I know that. And I knew in that moment that he was doing this because this was the commander's daughter who just had the shit kicked out of her by an airman. And we need to do something about this. And I was kind of like, Oh, I have this team. Now people really care. But the next morning, when I got that phone call, I realized, oh, okay, so maybe I don't really have a team, and maybe people don't really understand what they're doing. Because that phone call consisted of, you know, first sergeant, a commander, and him. He was there in the room, when they were calling me to ask me how I wanted to handle things going forward. He can hear this conversation. He can hear you. I said, I don't know what you mean, what do you mean? And they said, Well, you know, obviously, we'll be dealing with it on our end. But we know that you guys live together. Do you want to take possession of the apartment? Or do you have somewhere else you can go? No, I don't want the apartment. I don't want anything in it. I don't care to ever go back there. I don't want to have any contact. And they said, Okay, well, we have explained to airman XYZ, that he shouldn't have any contact with you. But we want you to say to him in front of us that you don't want to have any contact with him. We would like to have it on the record so that he knows and we know what your wishes are.
 
Marissa: So inappropriate.
 
Amy: Yeah. So, I was terrified of this man. Speaking the words, I don't ever want you to contact me again, felt like he was going to come through the phone and murder me. You know what I mean? Like, that's how afraid I was of him. And the idea of confronting him in that way, even though it was only on the phone. And there were like three or four other people in the room. Me standing there alone by myself in my living room with my cordless, like, you know, my 1995 cordless home phone in my hand. I mean, I felt like he could murder me through the phone. I was terrified. But somehow, I said, I don't want any contact. I just kind of blurted it out. And I heard him gasp and say, “Are you sure?” And then the other guys in the room, you know, kind of, you heard. you know? I'm not quite sure what the purpose of that was. I still don't fully understand. I can guess at what the purpose was that they were trying to make a point like, or maybe that was their protocol back then that they, somebody need it to be able to testify to the fact that the victim said she didn't want to have contact with the perpetrator anymore. I don't really know for sure, but I said it and the call ended. And I kind of stood there like the whole thing. I just it was like an out of body experience. About four hours later, my phone rang and it was him. He lasted four hours. I'm assuming he lasted long enough for them to tell him about what was going to happen to him going forward. What the charges were, what his punishment might look like and he told me that he was proud of me for calling the police and for leaving him. I never again after that day, when the men in the room with him in the room called me to say, please tell him that you don't want to have any contact with him anymore. I never heard from the United States Air Force again.
 
Marissa: Nothing?
 
Amy: No, they never even told me what his punishment was. They never asked me to write an affidavit. They never asked me to testify in front of a JAG person, or they never sent me a letter saying, here's how we handled the beating that this airman gave you. And at the time, I asked my mom several months ago, because I thought maybe that I was misremembering. I thought that maybe in the months and the years after that I was so wrapped up in my own trauma and my own PTSD that I didn't remember kind of what had gone down. I asked my mom, I said, “did you ever hear from anybody again? Are there any letters that we got from the Air Force? Or did you guys have like conversations with them that were kind of out of my presence, you know, that you didn't want me to know that, you know, we're trying to protect me from?” And she said, No. and I was like, That's so crazy. And she said, that is really crazy. And she said, you know, your dad and I, but especially your dad we were trying really hard not to ask too many questions, because we didn't, your father didn't want there to be an implication that he was interfering in any way. That he was going to go after this guy, because that's my daughter, and I'm a Colonel and Commander. And he didn't want there to be this, any kind of doubt about whether or not he was going to get what he deserved, based on his very own shitty merit. That it wasn't like the commander Oh, the, you know, the sky data, the commander's daughter, and now he's out to get him kind of thing. So, my dad was very hands off. And he didn't ask any questions. He specifically told me that it was like, honey, I can't, I can't ask because I don't, I don't want it to look like I'm influencing anything. I need, we need to let this run its course. Well, I now wish that he had, because I don't know anything that happened. I know that he was discharged months later. I know that he was on, “Weeds and seeds.” For a while where they decided his fate. He had been an air traffic controller and they I guess, obviously took him out of, off of the scope. And that he was, “weeds and seeds" for a while. And I know that he was discharged. The only reason that I know those things is because he told me. Because he never stopped calling. He would leave me messages on the answering machine. He would call me at work. This is way before caller ID This was way before anything like that. And I never reported it because I didn't even know who to report it to because I never heard from anyone after I reported. That make sense? So, I was this like traumatized 18-year-old trying to get her shit together, trying to get her life together. And I didn't have a like, nobody gave me a business card and said, if we can help you, here's who you call. Nobody wrote down a phone number. So, if even if I had wanted to report it, I had no idea who to report it to. And I was so messed up that I thought the fact that I had even answered his call or listened to him talk to me, meant that like I was in the wrong somehow. And that my parents might be mad at me for talking to him. Even though I didn't I wasn't the one who called him he would call me and I just answered the phone. But I really still thought I was in that guilt shame cycle where I thought that it was all my fault. And I thought people would be angry if they knew. Not angry at him for breaking the restraining order, and the directive from his commander that you know, me and like three other people heard any of that. I thought they would be mad at me. And I think that really speaks to the mindset of an abuse survivor and a victim of abuse. So yeah, I had no idea who didn't even report it to the judge or the DA I guess reduced the charges against him to some kind of a misdemeanor. And he was ordered to serve like six months probation, I think. And the way I found out that the charges had been reduced was because he told me. They never called me to say we're reducing the charges. He's pled guilty. He's pled no contest. He's been sentenced to probation. I never heard from any organization after the night that I reported. Never. I never heard the United States Air Force and I never heard from the county in Florida where I lived where he was charged.
 
Marissa: That's disgusting.
 
Amy: And that's amazing to me. And I say, Oh, it was a long time ago, but 25 years is actually not that long ago. And I read a lot of stories and I see a lot of people talking online, and I don't think things have changed much since then. I'm pretty sure that most women who are either victims of domestic violence, narcissistic abuse, or victims of sexual assault don't have a Mariska Hargitay that's like SVU holding their hand on the way to every court. Like I didn't even know there was a court case. I didn't have a SARC person. There was none of that. And I see that not a lot has changed. Because I see story after story after story online, of these women and men being dismissed, being retaliated against, being ignored, being made fun of, being laughed at.
 
Marissa: Your bravery and sharing all that is, is amazing and inspiring. Thank you very much. Well, first of all, every single one of those organizations was wrong, not only for reducing or dismissing the charges, I hope that he was dishonorably discharged but I feel like that's not the case.
 
Amy: I hope he was too because… I have no idea. Where is I have no idea. Isn't that crazy? I'm sorry. Go ahead.
 
Marissa: No, you're right, though. I mean, and I think that you brought up a really good point that it was really only escalated and handled. I'm air quoting handled, because you were the commander's daughter. And I don't think that if you were just either a service member or the daughter of, I don't know, a sergeant,  or a staff Sergeant or something. Yeah. No, not have cared, it would have been met with Oh, do we have to do the paperwork on this? Or can we let it slide? Like, how long can we dodge this issue before they give up it’s disgusting. And it happens so much?
 
Amy: Yeah, I mean, I would like to think that that, as far as I know that security police commander was an honorable guy. And I would like to think that he would have done that for anyone's daughter. And I and I feel like he probably would have, if it had been one of his Airmen. Does the commander come out for one of the airmen? I don't think so like, does the commander hold the hand of the young 18-year-old female airman who's just gotten the shit kicked out of her by her boyfriend? I don't think that he does. And, he should. He should. They all should.
 
Marissa: They all should and it shouldn't matter what your rank is or who your parent is. I'm in good faith that that security commander would have gone to bat for everyone. The problem is, it's so much more than that. Right? So yes, people that were in that room that day, while you were on the phone forced to address your abuser, the day after you were assaulted by him. First of all, I have to comment that that is disgusting. And if that's a protocol, if it's still a protocol, they need to get rid of that, because that is intimidating and it's manipulative.
 
Amy: It's crazy. I hope that that's not still some kind of protocol. And maybe people can like, I don't know, email you (me@MarissaFayeCohen.com) or something like tell us I would really like to know whether…
 
Marissa: It's a good idea if you have experienced this, and part of the protocol was that you had to be on the phone with your abuser after it happened to tell them that you didn't want any contact, shoot me an email. I'd like to know if that's still a thing because that is vile. That is a vile, manipulative tactic to make someone feel intimidated and threatened and that's not okay. And I want to address that with the people that will get rid of that. Lay that down right now. I'm not going to be quiet about that. That is disgusting. First of all, I have to commend your dad for being so awesome and level headed when you brought this up to him the day that you came home. Because I feel like for me, if I went to my dad's house after I had just gone through an event like that, my dad would have bought a shotgun. I mean, that is that is really admirable. And I understand that he was in a power position and didn't really have that option, but to be able to take a step back and be like, Okay, so here are your two options. That's amazing. And I'm so glad you had support in that moment like that. That wasn't explosive.
 
Amy: Well, that's what makes my dad, what made my dad while he was in the Air Force, I think probably an exceptional leader and an exceptional fighter pilots, a fighter pilot, like they don't have time to like, freak out or lose their shit. You got to decide, you know, your plane is going Mach two. What are you going to do?  Yeah, my parents are amazing. And he really did me a service in that moment by giving me the choice. I had been living my life without any choices. Where I didn't feel like I was in control of my life at all. I had someone else I was the puppet and there was a puppet master who was pulling the strings and controlling my life. And my dad, Sorry, excuse me, my dad in that moment, he gave that back to me. He gave me control. And I think in that moment, that was probably one of the greatest gifts that he's ever given to me, ever in my life. He gave me back my control. And he was like, a man who gave me back my control, which, you know, if you let it get really deep into your brain, I mean, that's deep shit, right? Like, that's a really powerful moment for a young woman to have an important man in her life, give her power, give her choice, give her control. And so, I am forever grateful to him for that, in that split second that he said that, to me, was a beautiful thing. And it was the best gift that he could have given me.
 
Marissa: That's incredible. And I'm really, I'm really happy that that you had that experience, because it really, I can't verbalize how meaningful that is. And you did a beautiful job, you know, it is it's giving your control back after a situation where for three years, you weren't able to make a decision. Or if you tried to make a decision, you'd get beaten. You’d get hurt. I'm really happy. Something else that you mentioned, I wanted to go back to because I see this all the time is that like, brotherhood mentality where his people that saw him treating you that way didn't address it. Probably, in my opinion, because they didn't know how, but also, because there's this toxic culture, in organizations like the military, where they’re brothers, right? This is a brotherhood or you know, whatever and they really can't rat on people without being considered like a betrayer, or whatever. And that's so gross, and so toxic. Do you want to comment on that a little?
 
Amy: I think if I could like wave a magic wand, that would be one of the first things that I would do away with. That mentality. And I think you hit the nail on the head when you said a lot of them, maybe didn't know what to do. But I know for a fact, And I remember for a fact that there were people there around us who were older and more higher ranking than him, who had airman under them, who should have known better. Were they not taught like, hey, if you see one of your airmen like slapping his girlfriend around, you need to report it?Like that's not to me, that's not a stretch, right? Like, I would like to say that people didn't know what to do. And they were shocked and all those kinds of things And I'm willing to give that to most people. I'm not willing to give that to somebody who has 15 years in the military and who has people under them. Or 10 years in the military, you know, who has Airmen or soldiers or sailors or Marines under them that they don't, they don't know what to do in that moment. I mean, their whole job, the oath that they take is about protecting America, right against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Like, how do you not know what to do about that? And so yes, that, to me, is one of the most disappointing things about my story. And about the millions of stories that I read about, and that I hear every year is the lack of accountability, and the lack of responsibility that service members feel either for their female counterparts or for the spouses and significant others of their co-workers. And it must stop. Guys get your shit together. If that makes you uncomfortable, that is a really good indicator that it's wrong and you should tell someone. You should tell someone. I mean, if any one of those guys who saw that or knew about that firsthand would have gone to a commander and said, this guy is dangerous. He doesn't need to be an air traffic controller. He's an alcoholic, and he beats his girlfriend. He shouldn't be in charge of pilots lives because that's what it comes down to with an air traffic controller. I mean, these guys, they have a job to do that keeps lives safe. So, I don't understand why people would want to be friends with a guy like that. I don't understand why people would want to continue to work with a guy like that. You know, I never expected anybody to like fist fight him or something. You know what I mean? Like, I wasn't waiting for some like big moment where somebody like swooped in and saved me because I knew that that was not going to happen. But it is amazing to me that nobody reported him. That's crazy.
 
Marissa: It's a testament to the training. When I worked for the army, I put together a ton of trainings with other people who worked on the base with me because our trainings were outdated. They were inaccurate. All of the trainings are, are a cover your ass tactic. It's not like they were taking them seriously anyways, and people go into those training soldiers go into those trainings knowing this is just a check off a box. Especially in the 80s and 90s, domestic violence was not taken seriously. I remember reading articles, and doing research on this when I was in my master's program, about how in the 80s, if somebody called for a domestic dispute to the police, a police officer would show up, ask the aggressor, what the victim did, and tell the victim to stop doing whatever that was to make the aggressor angry. Told the aggressor to go take a walk around the block until they cooled down. That was how they handled it. And imagine the military being much different.
 
Amy: In my story, I guess it's good that he got discharged. But again, how many people don't? How much of that was the fact that they never talked to me again. They never, you know, explained to me what was going on. But my last name was still on that paperwork. Right? So, was he discharged because of who my dad was? I don't know. I have no idea. But I do know that I hear about a lot of guys doing a lot worse stuff, or the same level of bad stuff, who don't get discharged. So that makes me wonder, too. I mean, in some respects, every story should be like mine, in the level of care that I got that first night, and all of that stuff. And the fact that my abuser was ultimately discharged. But the other side of my story isn't all that different from everybody else's. And that's what has to change. My dad often says that when a change needs to be made, that most of the time, you'll have to drag most people kicking and screaming over the finish line.
 
Marissa: I love that.
 
Amy: You have to you have to force it; you have to force it. But once you forced it, and some time goes by where the change is now the new normal, the problem starts to get better, right? Because you forced the change. And now, people see it as normal and that's what's going to have to happen in the military. With the issues of sexual assault and domestic violence. We are going to have to drag people kicking and screaming, it's going to have to be like bloodshed. Like nobody is safe. It needs to be that if you see something and you don't say something, you get punished, not, “Oh, we'll chalk it up to we need to educate you more, or we need to send you to another SHARP class.” If you see something and you don't say something, even if you weren't the perpetrator, you're in trouble.
 
Marissa: You're out.
 
Amy: You’re out.You’re done, because you're not the kind of person that we want in our United States military.
 
Marissa: I don't understand if the oath is to protect foreign and domestic, why are we not protecting domestic? Abuse is terrorism. It's literally the definition of terrorism. It is making somebody feel scared to be. Why is that not taken as seriously as a foreign enemy? Because domestic enemy can live in your house with you.
 
Amy: Yeah, domestic enemies do live in our homes with us. They live in our homes. They work in your tower. They work in your Squadron. They are everywhere. And my dad is a strong believer in diversity is like, people have to understand that everything is made better by diversity. And a lot of people aren't on board with that, because they don’t, they don't understand the power that comes with diversity in your workforce, whether it's military or private sector, or your friend group. It amplifies and increases the value of everything around you. So, we can continue to live in this space in the military, where we let women in because we had to. And they're really not vital to you know, we don't feel any need to protect them really, because they’re… Yeah, they're not as strong or physically large. But you're missing out. You're missing out on the diversity that comes with women, being in your workplace. And if you don't protect that diversity, you don't protect that space to make it so that you can have a diverse space, and a diverse force, then you are weakened by that. You are making yourself weaker every day. Every time that you don't protect one of the females under your command. You are weakening yourself, and you are weakening your force. But somehow commanders are missing it. They're missing it because they're trying to protect themselves.
 
Marissa: I completely agree like the bureaucratic nonsense. It's all old school mentality and it's all bullshit. Last question, what advice do you have for other survivors to help them to heal and overcome what they've gone through.
 
Amy: My first biggest piece of advice is therapy. However, you can get it. Because your brain is not equipped to manage this alone, you really need the help of a professional. Find one that you connect with, find one that makes you feel safe. Find one that has some experience in trauma, and everything that goes along with that. Whenever you feel safe enough talk about it, I think talking about it takes some of the scariness out. Admitting it to friends and family that maybe you haven't talked about it with. Maybe they just know that you guys broke up, but they don't know why. Talking about it, the more you talk about it, the less it stings. You know, I'm sure there's a psychologist who probably give that a name, obviously. But I just know that the more that I talked about it, the less it hurt. Also, the more I talked about it, and the more I told people, its kind of helped me stay accountable to myself to not go back. Because I think that that is a real struggle that every woman who is in a domestic violence situation struggles with. We all struggle with that. I mean, women leave sometimes several times before they're finally able to stay away. And one of the things that really helped me stay away, when the evil voice was kind of churning in my head, like, go back, he loves you, this is what you deserve, right? Was that I had told a bunch of people. And I didn't want to have to be like, “Oh, no, I told you that you'd beat the shit out of me, but we're back together." That helps hold me accountable. It sounds crazy and people think like, why would you even think about going back? But you do you absolutely do think about going back. So yeah, tell people. Share with people that you feel safe enough to share with what you've been through. But yeah, just know that you can do this. Follow the advice of domestic violence organizations out there. Make a plan for yourself, know where you're going to go, and who you're going to, and know how you're going to get there. Because I think that helps, I think that I was very lucky that I could leave there and run home to the safety of my parent’s house, I was very, very lucky. And I didn't have to make a plan I just ran away Not everybody has the opportunity to do that. So, if you know that you're not one of those people that has an opportunity to do that, try to make a plan. There's a lot of literature out there. There are a lot of great websites out there that can give you a checklist for how to leave. And go there and learn and figure out how to leave. And once you've left, follow the advice of people who have been there to help you stay away and stay safe. But yeah. Therapy, I think, is one of the top things that I can recommend to people, you just you can't get through it on your own. Like if you get sick, you go to a doctor, because the doctor has the knowledge and the skill and the medicine to help you get well. And this coming out of something like this is a sickness, and you need a doctor to help you get better. It is so freeing and life can be so beautiful, and full and happy and safe. It's so worth it.
 
Marissa: Thank you for sharing that. And just so anybody listening knows if you need a safety planning worksheet, I have one available on my website, MarissaCohen.com/free-resources . It's a full checklist of all the things to pack, what to do before you want to leave when you're leaving and after you leave. So, thank you for bringing that up. We have that covered on the site. But you could also obviously look into other resources as well.
 
Amy: Yeah, thank you, I'm so glad you have that Marissa. That's awesome.
 
Marissa: The most dangerous time in a domestic violence relationship is leaving. The abuser feels like they're out of control. Which is probably why yours was calling you a couple times a month to check in to try and still have that control over you, despite all the orders and no contact. But thank you so much for being here and for imparting all of your knowledge and insights on us and teaching us how to navigate this horrible scary situation. And thank you for your honesty. I really appreciate your time.
 
Amy: Oh, thank you, Marissa, thank you for listening and thank you for Amplifying Voices of women and men who have had these experiences. That cone of silence, and that cone of shame It goes away every time somebody speaks and the more people speak, the more change happens.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Healing From Emotional Abuse: Military Sexual Trauma Movement: With MST Survivor Corinne McGrath-Preston

Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today I have on a very special friend of mine. Corinne McGrath-Preston is a veteran that served in the US Army and the Vermont Army National Guard for almost 10 years. She and I go way back to high school. And she's the kindest and friendliest person that I know. I am honored to have her on the show today. And I'm so grateful that people like her serve our country, and are speaking out about their abuse. Thank you for coming on today, Corinne.
 
Corinne: Thank you for having me.
 
Marissa: Of course, I am. I'm sorry that these are the circumstances under which we talk. But I'm really, really grateful that you're speaking out about what happened to you, and that you're sharing your story so that other people know what actually happens to people in the military, and that this isn't one isolated issue.
 
Corrine: Yeah, it's hard, because a lot of people will pick it up. And it's, the mainstream media will pick up a story here and there. But it would just be continual  and nonstop, if they reported on every single instance. So, when something big like this happens (Vanessa Guillen), it definitely brings up a lot for a lot of people. I think what made it easier for me to start speaking about this was that I'm officially out now. And that's a weird feeling unto itself. Because it's, it's a toxic relationship that you have with the service, especially, where you have a circumstance where you survive through… it's just it's shitty, it's horrible. It sucks. And all at the same time. You fight so hard to keep it. And it's just this weird, toxic cycle that you fall into, with the military. So, it's just, it's weird.
 
Marissa: That's such a good way to phrase that it's a toxic relationship. Because I mean, I've never served, the closest I got to serving was being a contractor working in mental health. And from an outside perspective, that was so evident to me that people were fighting to be promoted, they were fighting to gain rank, they were fighting for all of these goals. And it was like, just hitting a wall every time especially for people that sought out mental health help. You know, if you had mentioned that you were suicidal, you are no longer promotable. You're not allowed to have a firearm, you're not allowed to. you're not combat ready, you're not anything. So, you're pretty much just sitting pretty until your contract ends. And that's so unfortunate, because it degrades mental health, and it stops people from seeking out the help they need to be truly combat ready.
 
Corinne: It's a love-hate relationship. Like I, only I made that Facebook post and I had said a lot of what I had experienced directly from my command and from my unit at the time. And I was brand new to my unit. I was assaulted by my team leader within two months of joining guard. And then I literally like I felt like I lost everything. Like I spent all of those months in training and finding out that this was something that I loved. And this is something I wanted to do. And then I had it ripped away from me. And then it started feeling like it was ripped away from me repeatedly. And it was just, I stayed in; you know what I mean? Like that was in 2012. And here it is 2020. And now I'm officially out but I kept myself in that scenario. Knowing already what it had done to me what it's done to my family what they've had to put up with. It's just there's a lot there's a lot to it. And it's crazy how much of a fight it is to just be in garrison. To be promoted to be sent to schools. To be considered a decent soldier, in my case. It's just there's so much.
 
Marissa: Do you mind talking a little bit about what you went through, and then the aftermath of what it felt like to be stuck there?
 
Corinne: So, in the Guard, I didn't report within the first month after the attack. I reported in July at Camp Johnson, it’s really the only kind of place other than camp Ethan Allen training site where there Offices other than the Armory. My First Sergeant at the time, had me drive from where I live to Camp Johnson, which was about an hour and a half drive, to have me sit in a tiny little office space and have her tell me like after I told her what had happened, she literally looked me in the eye and said, “You put yourself in that situation, so you deserve it.” Yep. And I had a lot of people make excuses for her I still definitely might my heart pounds when I see her or her brother, who was also in the guard. Because Vermont, like I said, Vermont's a very small place. So, there's always, always the possibility you're going to run into someone you know, which is very true, especially in my small town. And so, every time I run into her, I'm just like I feel it all over again. And it wasn't, that wasn't the only instance where she made my life or friends of mine, who were also serving, a living hell. She would speak to me indirectly, in a formation, kind of airing out dirty laundry like, “Don't, don't spend the night in a hotel room with other service members. Don't put yourself in a situation where you might be sexually assaulted.” Like a very victim blaming instance, she basically made it so that her lower enlisted friends would follow me around on drill weekends, and made sure I didn't talk to anyone, or just I wasn't even allowed to go anywhere on the armory by myself. I would constantly have someone following me. Usually it was a specialist or an E5. a Sergeant. And they would literally just follow me around, make sure I didn't really talk to anyone. So being a survivor, and not really giving myself the ability to process for as many years as I did, I just kind of shoved it down. I feel like it really has affected my relationship with my children first and foremost, because I wasn't in tune with myself, I couldn't be myself. So, in the past two years, all of the work that I really tried to put in granted, yeah, I was active duty. But I did so much therapy, that my unit my unit hated me for that (active-duty side.) I was constantly going to therapy because of all of the things that had happened. I was just so angry all the time. And I went out with a couple of friends, I got drunk, we came home and I ended up getting into a verbal altercation, that escalated two pictures getting knocked off the wall, Jeremy and I bumping into the table and the table flipped over and the MP’s were called. And so, I became a problem soldier while I was active duty, and not just in the guard because I didn't handle my shit. And it literally almost cost me my family. And so now since I've been out and since I've been home and since COVID, I've really had to come to terms with a lot of things. And notice a lot more about my life. Like that I definitely had postpartum when I had Elena. And I definitely shoved it down and didn't focus on it because it brought up so much about the assault and about all of the different traumas that I just I categorized it in my brain and was like nope, not dealing with this. So, I'm realizing this as I'm trying to be a mom of three now, not just two, and I'm trying to be a better mother and I understand that I need to be my best self but the Army literally took that from me.
I will never spend a day not being affected by it.
Jeremy shuffles his feet to come up and down the stairs intentionally and like knocks on walls if he's behind me walking up in the kitchen or he intentionally makes noise to make sure that I know he's there. Because I'm always going to be jumpy. And my kids can't jump out and surprise me. I freaked out even in the last couple of months, I freaked out because Cameron has jumped out from behind something decided surprise me and I'm still in the mindset where I need to be on guard and these are my children. This is my husband. It will never not be in every aspect in every corner of my life. And that's really hard for me to come to terms with but this is where I'm at.
 
Marissa: Right, I'm really glad you said that and I'm so sorry for how much it's impacted your life and just know you're not alone. You know, we are people growing up. And then as soon as something like this happens to us, especially in adulthood like you and I are whole world is turned upside down and we just change like, we will never be that person again. I will always have self-doubt, because of the abuse I went through. I will always have certain reactions to different scenarios and situations because of what I went through. And same for you and it's horrible. I don't think people recognize how much sexual assault impacts your whole well-being and your whole life like you're never the same person again, never. What was your rank when that happened to you?
 
Corinne: I was a PFC when I was assaulted and then I did not get promoted to specialist until 2017 because I struggled so much with my weight. I struggled so much with working out. Looking back, I couldn't get over myself to push myself that far. I had ended up getting a hip injury and it just started to really slow me down after having Cameron and Elena I couldn't do sit ups anymore. So, I went on a permanent profile. But then losing weight was my biggest issue. And weight is directly tied to mental health, especially for me, and the way that you eat and the way that you're living your life. So, when I finally did get promoted to a specialist, that's when I decided, “Oh, I'm going to go active duty, I'm going to do these things. I'm going to reset my career. I'm going to go and, and do all these great things and play ‘real army.’” And when I got there, after having a couple of triggering incidences, I wasn't attacked again. I wasn't assaulted. I just wasn't handling my own self and my own triggers. And I ended up letting it affect every aspect because I didn't know how to stop myself. I didn't know how to reverse me catastrophizing, and I ended up getting demoted back down to PFC before getting out. So, I'm still PFC, McGrath Preston. But I made it a specialist before really just throwing in the towel and saying I was done.
 
Marissa: What kind of discharge did you did you have following all of this?
 
Corinne: Well, they did try to get me out on a couple of different things before I ultimately was pregnant with Jacob and decided that I was going to take the chapter for essentially for pregnancy, because I was like I can't do this again. I need I needed a way out. And that was, that was the way that I took. So, I do have an honorable discharge, which is more than I can say for a lot of other people that I know of. The joke was with a couple of friends that I was going to swap urine samples with them to pretend to piss hot so I could get out of there faster. Because it took me months and months and months. I literally I started the process in August of 2019. And found out the day after Christmas, that my paperwork had gone through. Which in the grand scheme of the army, that's pretty quick. But for my whole family and I being out in Colorado, it was a long time.
 
Marissa: Yeah, they're definitely not quick, with their paperwork. The bureaucracy behind everything is ridiculous. And while working there, I learned that it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission, because to get permission to do anything in the mental health field would have taken longer than the span of my contract.
 
Corinne: It’s also a very climate driven thing as well. Because if you if you as a soldier want something done, and your leadership doesn't really care, it's going to take longer. If your leadership is hell bent on getting something done, things will move so much faster.
 
Marissa: What if you don't mind me asking? What happened to the person who abused you? Do you know where they are now?
 
Corinne: So, I found out when they were trying to get him out of the army. I knew he was married. But I found out that he had two teenage daughters, which really, really fucked with me. And because he had assaulted me and I had reported him, after his deployment, he was given all of his benefits through the VA. And there was nothing I was told there was nothing that could be done about that, that he was going to keep those no matter what. And he was going to be given an Other Than Honorable Discharge because the Vermont Army National Guard did not have CID. We weren't attached to 10th Mountain out of Fort Drum yet. Like it was still its own entity. He was an EMT, in the Washington DC area. And for all I know, he probably is still an EMT. He's probably still in that position where he's supposed to be taking care of people. And he's more than likely still abusing that power. When he was getting pushed out, it’s kind of went back and forth a little bit where my advocate and my recorder, which is because there was a recorder for the Army with the best interest of the Army, who didn't give a rat's ass about me, which is fine. I understand that was his job. But my recorder, was there intentionally, like intentionally to be there with my best interest. And I cannot remember this man's name, I'm sure it's still in my email somewhere. But he and my victim advocate were like, “So this, your attacker wants to write you a letter to apologize.” And I was like, if he's going to write me a letter, I want him to sit down with a therapist and actually work through his bullshit. Because you're not going to just give me a blanket letter that says I'm sorry. And his representation came back and was like, well, we will we will do therapy if he stays in the army. And I was like, no, go fuck yourself. Like, instantly, like, there was no question. Take your fucking letter and send it somewhere else. Nope, not even going to happen. But I remember I was holding Cameron, who was a couple months old at the time. And I remember holding him and having this conversation with the Captain and being like, “Nope, I don't want a single thing from this man. I don't want an apology letter. I don't want anything and especially, I don't want him in boots. If it gets him out of boots faster, like he can just go pound sand elsewhere.” He had gotten an administrative move from the unit within a couple weeks of me reporting. It was around the same time. He also the weekends that he had attacked me, went to JAG and spoke to them and told them basically that, hypothetically, he had relations with someone that he felt was going to come forward and accuse him of sexual assault. So, the weekend he attacked me, he went to JAG and set up this whole story that I was just feeling bad about the fact that we had relations. And they believed him. They gave him a lawyer who was local in Burlington. So, he knew that this was all… He had a plan on how all this was going to go down. So, he then went back down to Washington, DC, and he got moved to North field out of Winooski. And, god, it's so convoluted, there's so much that goes on in this entire story. So, I go to JAG and I asked JAG for help. And JAG goes, “Well, we can't give you any legal help”. So, I go to CUSI, which is the Chittenden Unit for Special Investigations and I filed a report with them. And then I filed for relief of abuse order. The Army gave me the No Contact order and flagged me so I couldn't get promoted. I couldn't go to schools. I couldn't do anything. And then months down the line after my multiple different victim advocates that I had, because every time that I had a meeting with someone, I had a different victim advocate like I never, never kept the same advocate. So, I would tell the advocate my story before going into the meeting, and then I would tell the story again in the meeting, and then nothing would happen. And it just it got worse and worse. Until finally, my victim advocate Jason Cleveland, SSG Cleveland stuck with me and he drove me from Winooski down to Northfield to meet with a Sergeant Major and a Lieutenant Colonel. What they forgot to mention was that:
A. This was my attackers new unit; and B. was his family day. So, he was in civilian clothes, and he wasn't like in any mandated training. They didn't know where he was.
So, they walked us upstairs into the second floor and put us in this tiny little office and basically told me that I wasn't allowed to leave the office because he was there in the building. And I lost my mind. I was in this tiny little room. Well, it wasn't even that tiny, but to me it was it was just small. And I was pacing and I was freaking out and Staff Sergeant Cleveland was just sitting there and he's watching me and I remember there was a LT or Captain that came in to do my line of duty. So, it took from July when I reported until November to have this paperwork done. That said I had been assaulted and I had a medical, because the line of duty is for the VA essentially. And because at the time that I was assaulted on a drill weekend, I didn't count for a VA rating, I still technically don't count for a VA rating. I'm currently fighting that battle. And I wasn't entitled to anything through the VA, for PTSD for victim services, because drill weekends didn't count. It was just a continual shit show to be totally honest.
 
Marissa: Everything you said is valid, though. I mean, truly, if you want to dig deep, the military does not take care of their own, one of the things that I learned is, you're more likely to be promoted in the military, for raping and abusing somebody than you are for being victimized. And doing all the right things and taking all the right steps to resolve the issue and to get yourself situated.
 
Corinne: The term is Failing Upwards. Because if they promote you, you move, and they don't have to deal with you anymore.
 
Marissa: Exactly. And I not to make this about me But I recorded an episode that I talked about my story and about, I only worked for the military and I was being harassed by a guy that worked in HHC. I found out after I'd made a report that he had abused or harassed or stalked seven women before me. And then after I made a report, my contract mysteriously ended. And then he was promoted and moved again. Now he has I think, nine or 10 reports on him for abusive behavior. And he just keeps getting promoted. I'm pretty sure he's a staff sergeant right now, which is disgusting, because that means he has a lot of people under him. And those people are vulnerable to him, because they're, he's their first line leader. And you know, what are they going to do if they speak out against him? What do you think from all of this that you've experienced, what do you think the military needs to change to make this more survivor friendly?
 
Corinne: I used to think that there were redeemable qualities about the Army. I mean, there's a few NCOs that I can name on one hand that are amazing people and that's, about it. I honestly think that it needs to be taken down to its core and rebuilt. I think that, like you show up for the first day, and people are like, Oh, I'm going to make these jokes that are going to make you uncomfortable. And I know they're going to make you uncomfortable. But as soon as you say that you're uncomfortable, It's not me, it's your problem. So, if someone makes a sexist comment about female soldiers, you're just supposed to take it. You're just supposed to absorb it, because that’s the culture ultimately is that it's a man's job. And you're not going to ever be good enough. And the military itself is power and control. That is why we have a military is for power and control. And there are people that are drawn to that will utilize that mentality, and take advantage of other people, both male and female. And that's what sexual assault ultimately is about. It’s about power and control. So, this environment is just fostering these people because it's not genders specific. The only reason that it becomes gender specific is because there's only 15% females in the United States Military and that's where people are like, “Oh, it's only it's only males that are attackers.” But it's not true there. There are female attackers, there are male victims. There is male and male violence, there's so much to it, it's just you can't fix it. Because that is literally the environment. That is the Military. There is no fixing it. Like there, you can tear it all down and that very core of it being power and control. The only way you're going to eat out these individuals is if you have like the most insane psychological testing, and even then, there's always going to be someone that gets through.
 
Marissa: I think that beyond psyche evals, which are important, in my opinion just as like a personality measure, I think there needs to be a system (and something that I'm actually working on separately) is a third-party system to help survivors of military sexual abuse because I think that keeping it internal is dangerous. You went to all the right channels, but because he went to the JAG first to defend himself preemptively knowing what he did was wrong, then you were at a disadvantage. They didn't believe you. They didn't give you a lawyer. What kind of bullshit system is that?
 
Corinne: And it's because all he literally had just gotten back from a deployment with the unit that I was attached to. Like they knew him is what they kept saying to me, “Oh, no, you’re lying because I know him. And he wouldn't do that”. And my First Sergeant was a driving force behind that where she made it so that I was extremely ostracized and alienated. “Oh, don't pull them McGrath.” was literally something that was said after I'd been moved from the unit in a safety brief. And she's still a First Sergeant, she's still in the army. She's going to finish out. She's going to have 20 years. And if she ever makes Sergeant Major, I think I'll be sick. She probably because she's protecting perpetrators. There was actually one point where I was doing my, my yearly physical, and I was talking to a Major, and he was asking me all these questions, and I was responding honestly, and 100% openly. And he actually left in the middle of my talking with the provider, because he was like, “I need to go find her, because she worked in the medical fields. She like she was a medic, and she worked in Med-Det. as a civilian as a technician, while simultaneously serving in the guard.” And literally, he went to go find her and confronted her about it and she wouldn't come back to the room. She told him to tell me she was sorry. And this was years after the fact. There's a lot in the military. There's a lot like her. I was told when I went to Northfield to go talk to that Sergeant Major and that Lieutenant Colonel, on the way there, I was telling Jason Cleveland, my victim advocate, that all of these things had been happening. And then as soon as we got there and everything that happened, and they gave me my LOD, I finally was able to get in to talk to the Lieutenant Colonel. He's like, why are we just getting this point, the Sergeant Major said, “Well, if you think about it, in drill weekends, we're pretty on point like, it's only been like X number of days.” And that's literally when I knew that I didn't matter. Like that was how the timeline was being perceived was in drill weekends, every two days. That's how my life was being measured. It wasn't being measured in the times that I would go home and I wasn't sleeping at night, so I would drink so that I wouldn't think about how my body felt. It was nothing. It was every time I was in boots, that was the only time that it mattered. Every time I was in the uniform, that was when I counted as a soldier, but not as a human being. And then I was told, because I asked if I could be moved to the air ambulance unit, I was told by that same Sergeant Major, "That was too much of a good thing. Because medics fight for that slot, and there would be too much. I would have to learn so much about the helicopters, and that would be too much for me.” So, I would have to stay either in Charlie Med or be moved to Med Det., which wasn't that safe because her brother, my First Sergeant's brother was a Staff Sergeant at Med Det. And I had already been through an instance, that previous summer in August, where I was ordered by my First Sergeant's brother to sit on a cooler in a tiny kitchenette, the size of literally a closet, while they broke the Relief of Abuse Order and the No Contact Order, and brought my attacker through the back gate of Camp Johnson, and into the same hallway that I was in. And he told me, my First Sergeants brother told me that, “Well, he wouldn't do anything because I deployed with him. And he wouldn't do that.” So I wasn't allowed to go outside of my unit, I was going to stay if I stayed in the medical field, I was going to be in one situation or another where everything was going to be absolutely controlled by them. Or I could lose my medic status and become a zero-zero-fox, which is essentially a placeholder MLS and be moved elsewhere, which is ultimately what happened. There was a meeting of Sergeant Majors, and my Sergeant Major stood up and said, “I will take her because he knew the guy I was dating at the time his father had mentioned to him what had been going on. And that was the only reason that this Sergeant Major was like she's not a problem. Like she's now my soldier.” And I was moved over into Garrison Support Command GSC and worked for Range Control at Camp Ethan Allen training site. And honestly, if it wasn't for my Sergeant Major and if it wasn't for my First Sergeant that I'd been moved to Thomas Combs I honestly don't think I would have survived my first five years of being in the Army National Guard
 
Marissa: I'm so sorry. That's so much bullshit and bureaucracy. I mean, the Military definitely misuses human beings. And, you know, it's such an abuse of power. And it’s limitless. It's a limitless abuse of power So what advice would you give to other military survivors to help them get through all of this?
 
Corinne: Something that has really helped me a lot. When I was in Fort Carson, I was I was going to a therapist, there at Behavioral Health Team 5, and I was sitting in the waiting room, and I found this last brochure about Equine therapy. I emailed the woman, because I was curious about it, because it talked about relearning how to trust yourself. And I was like, well, that's a weird thing to say. And I ended up going, and there were multiple instances where I actually cried, because of the equine therapy. It's really powerful, just going out into this herd of mares and figuring out which one you have sort of a connection with. And then you groom them for the first part of the therapy. And then you ultimately do an exercise. And the one that really helped me start to understand was, it's essentially  you put the lead on the ground, and you have the horse follow you through an obstacle course, essentially. My best friend's mom, who I consider my mom, had actually come to visit me and she even mentioned after watching this therapy session. She was like, “I could see it from where I was the change that came over you.” And I, it still gives me chills because it was so, so powerful to remind me that I can not only trust myself, but I could, trust others around me, even if I can't speak to them. And I 100% recommend Equine Therapy to MST survivor at any at any point. If you can get just near a horse. I know it's terrifying to even begin to consider like, well, if I can't trust myself, how am I supposed to trust an animal that's a good 100 times my size in some cases. It's worth it. It's worth the risk. And absolutely incredible to have that kind of connection. And to remember that, that you can have that connection with someone or something.
 
Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing that. That's amazing. I have heard great things about equine therapy. But its good talking is a good thing. And I'm really honored that you felt comfortable enough to talk to me about this and go through you went through. And you're really doing such a huge service to people helping them explore what they went through and heal from it because you are so brave and I adore you. Military Sexual Trauma Movement
 
Corrine: Thanks for having me. And I’m glad we did finally get a chance to reconnect and to talk about this.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
narcissist. narcissism. overcoming narcissism. toxic relationship. toxic people. ways to heal. how to heal from emotional abuse. living with a narcissist. good friends. healthy relationship. intimate partner violence. intimate partner relationship. healthy relationships. self love. confidence. self esteem. low self esteem. self esteem activities. confidence exercises. breaking through the silence. what does emotional abuse do to you. what does it mean to be narcissistic. what being with a narcissist does to you. what emotional abuse does to you. learning how to trust myself again. i trust myself. i only trust myself. in myself i trust. trust myself. MST military. MST movement. military sexual trauma movement. MST survivor. equine therapy. abuse of power. military abuse of power. UCMJ abuse of power. 

Healing From Emotional Abuse: IAmVanessaGuillen: Military Sexual Trauma Movement

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. This was a big week for sexual assault and trafficking survivors around the country.  First, on Thursday morning, Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein’s girlfriend, recruiter and partner in assaulting hundreds of young women, was arrested in New Hampshire. To me, that means the FBI has finally compiled enough evidence to arrest his entire empire.  I can’t express how excited I am to watch that topple and burn to the ground.   Then, articles started surfacing about John Paul Doerr III, son of the top judge in Bucks County, PA —Thomas Doerr. He pled guilty to exploiting children through possessing and distributing a massive amount of child porn.  And he was basically let off with a slap on the wrist.  I would consider that arrest a slap on the wrist. This enraged community was making huge strides to resolve the problem of abusers and traffickers not being held accountable, and then this happened.  So, I’m calling all my listeners to make a stink about this.  This man should be in prison for 250 years — based on the amount of child pornography and the 45 felony charges against him.  Instead, he was given 5 years probation, six months of house arrest, and 15 years in the Megans Law registry… he’s only 34.  15 years is nothing.  He gets to restart his life at 50, but ruined the lives of many children… lives they’ll never get back.  We need to get this man off the street. 
 
Now that we’ve discussed some current events, I want to shift the focus to the military, and the corrupt, loose system that they have to deal with sexual assault predators and perpetrators.
 
With hashtag #IamVanessaGuillen trending, and the discovery of remains near Ft. Hood, I think it’s appropriate to address the persistent and rampant issue of sexual assault in the military. I want to start off by saying that I support the brave people who enlist to protect our country.  This is bigger than that.  This is a systemic issue from the top.  And it’s not a new issue.  In fact, it’s an issue that has been covered up and swept away by the military for longer than anyone cares to admit.  For a short period of time between January 2017-April 2018, I was a Contractor for the United States Army Reserve.  My role was to create an Employee Assistance Program, where I would work one-on-one with military members who faced adult life issues, ranging anywhere from substance abuse to suicide, to sexual assault and domestic violence.  In that time, I built the biggest program in the army, with over 200 service members either reaching out or enrolling in my program.   I’m not saying that to brag.  I bring that up because, in a down trace  of over 14,000 people, only 200 of them felt comfortable reaching out for mental health.  And when I came forward and reported a situation that I had been experiencing, my contract mysteriously and suddenly ended, with less than a days notice.
 
The military has an unhealthy way of demeaning mental health as a weakness, and criticizes the people that reach out for help.  Instead, they tell service members to Unfuck Themselves, and just get over it.   In 14 months, I spoke to over 100 people that were abusing substances, another 50 that had disclosed suicidal ideations or attempted suicide, and a ton who had survived domestic violence, and endured sexual assault.  The reported sexual assault and domestic violence numbers were scary low.  Like, under 20 people. But the people who disclosed to me outside of the reporting system, was astronomical.
 
The way the military works is, if you’ve been sexually assaulted, you have two reporting options.  If you disclose your assault to anyone besides the Sexual Assault Response Coordinator or SARC, or Victim Advocate, it supposedly sparks a loud, public, open investigation.  If you disclose your assault to a SARC, you can opt for a restricted report, which means only the SARC will hear about it, and it will not open an investigation.  Or you can choose to make an unrestricted report, which theoretically SHOULD open a full criminal investigation…. AGAINST THE ACCUSED. However, it is at the commander of the bases discretion whether or not they choose to open an investigation, even if you make an unrestricted report and ask for an investigation.
 
I can only speak from my experiences.  What I learned while working for the Army, and what I observed as far as “protocols’ went, and what I endured.  My experience is nowhere near as tragic as Vanessa Guillen, and I don’t aim to compare.  All of the people coming forward, speaking their truth about their horrible experiences with the military should be greeted with an open mind, kindness, and support.  Most service members stay silent because it is career-ending to report abuse.  They get PCS’ed (transferred), retaliated against, blamed, and labeled unpromoteable “problem soldiers”.  The abusers on the other hand, get promoted, “counseled” in a private meeting where they get a slap on the wrist (not unlike Brock Turner), and maybe transferred with no additional repercussions.
 
Retired Major General Shadley, a wise man, advocate, colleague, and future guest on Breaking Through Our Silence with his amazing survivor wife Camilla, wrote in his book that you’re more likely to get promoted for raping someone, than reporting being raped in the military.  Think about that for a second.  Someone commits a violent crime, recognized by the FBI as the second most violent crime next to homicide, and instead of being held accountable, they are rewarded??  Maybe I’m alone in this, but that doesn’t add up to me.  What other crime can you commit that hurts somebody else and be rewarded for it? Or not be held accountable for it?  Literally none. You break into someones house and steal something, you’re arrested.  You rob someone? You punch somebody in the face, you’re arrested. You start a fight in a bar, you’re arrested. But you can rape somebody or abuse somebody and get counseled, promoted and transferred? Are you kidding me? 
 
While working at the Parkhurst Reserve Center under the 416th TEC, it was my job to befriend service members and provide them with mental health in whichever areas they needed.  For this reason, and my sparkling personality, I became friendly with a lot of people on the base. I would spend lunch working out with them, we would compete in fun, gym-related competitions, play competitive scrabble, and throughout the day, I would be seen walking around, hanging out in different rooms, talking with people and building rapport.  It was a part of the job, but also, a fun way to make the workday less mundane.One of the service members, whose name I won’t disclose for legal reasons, not that i’m trying to protect him, took advantage of the situation.  He knew that my role was to help, and so he created reasons to come to my desk and request time almost daily.  We developed a friendship, and would casually chat throughout the day.  But what started as innocent friendship, quickly became an abuse of a good-natured program. 
 
He initially started the professional relationship speaking about marital issues.  He was considering a divorce from his wife because he was unhappy.  He would explicitly describe sexual encounters that made me extremely uncomfortable, and follow it up with all the things that he would do for her sexually, if only she would return the favor.  That alone is such a violation of the professional boundaries that I set.  But I wanted to remain professional, and felt that if I cut him off, then everyone on this small base who knew him for far longer than they knew me, would feel uncomfortable speaking with me — which I didn’t want.  So, I asked him to stop speaking so vividly about that, and tried to focus on resolutions.
Then, through mutual friends on the base, he found my Facebook.  He proceeded to message me while at work, and after, until late at night, even if I didn’t respond.  He would comment about the things he would do to me “if we were both single” which neither of us were.  And I would ignore him, or ask him not to say things like that.  He would get angry and throw a hissy fit, try to gaslight me into feeling guilty for calling him out, then continue the conversation like it never happened.
 
Sometimes, I would open my phone for 15-20 messages, unanswered, not responded to, and unprovoked.
 
I felt stuck.  On one hand, I hoped that working with him would allow other people on the base to feel comfortable talking to me.  But on the other hand, I wanted to end any contact with him, because it was an annoyance.  So, one day, I requested to meet his wife.  I figured that if I met his wife, he would feel uncomfortable making advances and crude statements.  I was quickly proven wrong, because he started to constantly bring up having a three-some.
 
The final straw for me was when he began to text me, calling out things I was doing, that I hadn’t mentioned to him.  As if he was watching me through my phone camera or my window.   One day, he told me that the pillow I was laying on looked so comfortable.  That was unprovoked, and I hadn’t mentioned that I was in my bed or laying on a pillow.  I hadn’t said anything at all.  Other times he would mention that the food I was preparing looked delicious.  And I became paranoid that he was watching me through my phone camera.  So I tapped a piece of paper over it.  I finally spoke up to a victim advocate on my base, and eventually made a report to the commander, who initially, didn’t take it lightly.  She immediately said she would “counsel” him, which meant she would give him a stern talking to.  I showed her hundreds of messages from him that were abusive, manipulative, gross, and violating.  I requested a 15-6, which means a full criminal investigation, and she immediately denied me.  Days later, he was still working happily, with no repercussions.  No consequences.  The only thing he wasn’t allowed to do was contact me or walk into my cubicle.  So instead, he would threateningly walk past my cubicle 8 or time times per hour and just glare at me.  Less than a week later, I was told I was no longer allowed in 5 of the rooms in the base, two of which, I had people that I was working with in.  Why was I the one that was limited to certain areas in the base, and not the man that had been harassing me for almost a year?
 
I went to two police stations to make reports, because I realized that the military did not have my best interest. One in the town where the military base was, and one where I lived.  Neither of them made a report, even though I requested it, because it was “out of their jurisdiction.”  Each police stations said it was the others responsibility.  That’s when I knew I was truly alone.  I reached out to my contracting company and made a report with their HR.  I reached out to the EO in the Military and made a report.  I reached out to USARC, which the U.S. Army Reserve, overarching community, and reached out to their HR.  I reached out to IG and made a report. And nothing came of it. The word got around, very quickly, that I made a report, and I became, essentially, an outcast.  A lot of the men on base wouldn’t even say hello to me anymore.  It really sucked.
 
Then, I was approached by another female civilian, who informed me that I had been this mans 7th harassment report. 7 times in 10 years, this man had harassed, abused, stalked or sexually threatened a woman, and been given nothing more than a stern talking to, then transferred.  Only a few years prior to my report was this man detained for stalking a woman from Illinois to Georgia because she left him to go back to her husband.  He threatened to kill her, kill himself and make sure to write on his body that it was her fault.  She PCSed — intentionally transferred to Georgia just to get away from him.  That scared me so much, that he was going to stalk me 40 minutes away from where we worked, because he jumped on a plane and flew several states over to stalk somebody.  Out of fear, and the need to protect myself and my house, I applied for a FOID card (Firearm Owners ID), just to make sure I was safe.  I had a knife with me in my car, in my purse, under my bed, and in every room in my house, just in case he showed up one day.
 
You know what happened to this disgusting man?  After my contract ended, he harassed or abused two more women in the 416th TEC, and then was promoted to Staff Sgt, and moved to recruiting.  What better way to protect an offender than moving him to a place where he LITERALLY HOLDS FULL CONTROL OVER YOUNG PEOPLES CAREERS AND FUTURES?  How upsetting is that?  They literally rewarded him for being a disgusting pig, by giving him ultimate power to determine peoples futures.
 
The military has a history of mishandling assault because the soldiers that are affected face retaliation, backlash, being ostracized, and being labeled “unfit to serve”.  So they just sit pretty until their contract ends. The whole system needs a reboot.  But how?  How can we change the way it’s handled in a more survivor-friendly way? 
 
Think about that. 
 
In the coming weeks, I have several episodes of survivors of military sexual trauma (MST) coming forward and speaking about what they’ve endured.  I have retired SARC’s, retired Generals, and other people that just want to speak out about how military sexual trauma MST has affected them and what happened.  So, stay tuned and keep checking back for these stories.  Thank you for listening today and thank you for listening to my story.  This is a topic that’s close to my heart. I dont’ want to ever hear about anymore Vanessa Guillen’s, because I don’t want it to ever happen again.  It’s disgusting that had her family not made a gigantic stink on social media about what happened to their daughter and why she was missing, I can assure you, her remains never would have been found. Stay tuned for more episodes from Healing From Emotional Abuse, and especially more episodes about Military Sexual Trauma MST. 
 
If anyone you know is struggling to overcome or heal from their emotional trauma…
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Stages of Emotional Healing

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. I wanted to tell you guys the story of how I created my signature coaching course, the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy. At the very beginning of 2020, I was driving from Chicago to Northwestern Wisconsin to visit a dear friend of mine.  On road trips, especially solo ones, I really enjoy listening to audiobooks. specifically of the self-development genre.  By recommendation from a friend, I purchased and listened to The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks (link to the book in the description).  It was an incredibly eye-opening book, and I kept having to pause to leave myself voice notes.  What I didn’t realize at the time, was that I was formulating and basically tracking all the tactics and techniques I used to help myself heal from my abuse, while also, etching out exactly how I had helped other survivors and champions heal from theirs.
 
It quickly became the foundation for my signature coaching program, The Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy. The Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy is a simple 3-step method to healing from abuse from beginning to end.  It follows you through each phase of your healing journey, with understanding and self esteem activities to help accelerate and supplement your healing.  Starting with breaking your silence. 
 
Breaking your silence, which is a  step I’ve focused on and encouraged thousands of people to do through my Breaking Through the Silence book series and (appropriately named) Breaking Through Our Silence, the podcast (Now named Healing From Emotional Abuse); allows you to take your voice back.  The thing with abuse is, it hurts us so deeply that we lose ourselves.  We lose who we are, our voice and our identity.  And our narcissists hold us captive even after the abuse is over or we leave because we feel isolated and alone.  But we aren’t alone.  None of us are.  And I learned from sharing my story that the more people I shared with, the more people shared with me.  And that is when I started to realize that I wasn’t alone.  We will always have people who we can relate to.
 
Thats the beauty of sharing your story.  You never know who you’re helping to break their silence.  We are a community because we all are rebuilding our lives together.
 
The second step in the Ruhe Approach is to drop your victim mentality.  This step seems to stir a lot of peoples nerves, but only because it’s a tough pill to swallow.  Think about it.  Who is the strongest person you know, or the most inspirational.  How do they act?  How do they perceive the world?  Do they allow what happens to them to define them and stop their lives, or do they take a moment, get back on their feet and continue on with their lives?  The problem with having a victim mentality is, you’re not taking accountability for your life, therefore, everything happens TO you and you’re not in control of it. 
 
Don’t let your abuser keep their hold on you and control you.  And when you do that, and you stop looking at yourself like a victim, you’re empowering yourself to start working towards healing.  You’ll feel better the moment you drop your victimhood and become a survivor.
 
The third step in the Ruhe approach is to build your confidence.  After abuse or assault, like I said before, we lose ourselves.  We learn to dislike things about ourselves and beat ourselves up.  My abuser told me that I was useless, and nobody in their right mind would ever love me, besides him.  And when you’re told that enough by a person you love and respect, you believe it.  And after my sexual assaults, I started to learn that my body was an object for other people to use and take advantage of.  All of that contributed to my low self-esteem and confidence, which was arguably the most difficult repair I had to make.  But healing your confidence is a huge part of healing from your abuse.
 
What is a word or action your abuser said that contributed to hurting your confidence?  Make that word your new superpower.  The Ruhe Approach teaches you how to do that. Useless?  I took the negativity that my abuser unloaded on me and became the most useful person I could be, or I’m at least working on it.  The horrible things he said and used to hurt me, I’ve turned into my biggest strengths.  The weakness I felt after the things he did to me, empower me to be the strongest person and advocate I can be.  What is your new superpower?
 
Step four is finding resources that work for you.  Therapy is amazing, but it’s not for everyone.  There are hundreds of other resources that might work for you.  It’s about finding the things that empower you and make you feel stronger.  That’s what resources are for abuse champions. Something to help you express your feelings and work through your trauma. 
 
A lot of people tend to turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms after abuse or assault, like self-harm, drugs and alcohol, eating disorders, or destructive and risky behaviors.  They are great for numbing, quick fixes.  But they aren’t healthy or sustainable.  They also don’t solve any issues, but build them up and make it harder to heal. Let’s find you a healthy alternative to coping.
 
The last step is to rebuild your routine.  To surround yourself with the people and things that make you the happiest, and cut out the toxic crap. Changing your routine to be doing the things that make you feel good, change your overall perspective.  It’s time to re-evaluate the people and things that you keep close to you. 
 
Who in your life, makes you happiest to be around?  Who encourages you to be your best?  Who inspires you to succeed?  Those are the people you should spend your time with.
Simple changes like the people who you surround yourself with make a huge impact on your perception of reality.  So spend your time with the people who inspire you and who make you the person you want to be.
 
And that’s all she wrote.  Literally.  Changing your life, and healing from your abuse can be that simple.  It takes work, patience, self care and determination.  But the payoff is worth the work.
 
You can work your way through the Ruhe Approach four different ways, although a combination of all four is always best.
 
The first way is through personal or group coaching with me directly.  I have two different programs.  One is a masterclass with no more than 20 people at a time.  In this format, we work together as a group to support each other’s healing journeys.  Everyone follows the program at the same speed, empowering and motivating each other.  For more information about this option, email me directly at me@MarissaFayeCohen.com with the subject line Healing Master Class.
 
The other coaching option is one-on-one coaching, where we meet twice per month and work through the Ruhe Approach, just us.  We move at your pace, and you receive 100% of my attention.  For more information about this, send me an email with the subject line One on One Coaching
 
I also have a Self-Study course available of the Ruhe Approach.  It comes with guidance and worksheets already built in.  You can move at your own pace and heal in your time.  This is available on my website under Courses.
 
The final option is reading my best selling book, the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, available on my website MarissaFayeCohen.com/the-books or on Amazon. 
 
I hope this episode has intrigued you to learn more about the Ruhe Approach, but more than anything, I hope it inspired you to start living your best life, peacefully and fully.  We only have this one life, and it really makes me sad to see so many people giving up on enjoying it because of something that happened to them.  We are so much more resilient than we give ourselves credit for.  Take your power back.  Take your life back.
 
I’m proud of you.
 
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Healing From Emotional Abuse: Female Wrestlers and Sexual Harassment: with BCP and Risa Pappas

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Rob: All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to a very special tag team edition of the BCP / Healing From Emotional Abuse Podcast Connection. It looks like we’ve got ourselves a little mini-series here, you know. We're talking about the #SpeakingOutMovement going on right now on social media in the Wrestling World, something that really needs to be talked about. We're having some open and honest discussions. And of course, I'd like to welcome to the show my tag team partner, the good sister and multiple time Amazon best-selling, award-winning author, Miss Marissa F. Cohen, what's up Miss Marissa?
 
Marissa: Hey, how are you?
 
Rob: Doing well, all things considered in this 2020 we're doing okay, how about you?
 
Marissa: Oh, no, I totally hear that. And I'm super excited. That #SpeakingOut is blowing up. I mean, like, this is this is insane. It's all you see on Twitter. It's all you see all over social media, which is fantastic. I'm not happy it happens. But I'm happy that people are finally speaking about it. That is so important.
 
Rob: Yeah, I think that's what we need to do. And I think what did you call it #BreakingThroughtheSpeakingOutMovement, is that we're calling this?
 
Marissa: I think it is Breaking Through the #SpeakingOutMovement.
 
Rob: That’s it. See, this is why you're here. I can do the wrestling stuff, though. So, this is a this is an awesome tag team. And before he gives you the hot tag, I think we'll introduce our guest at this time. I’m super excited for this one, someone who is super passionate about the business and what's going on in it right now.  This is long overdue. But please welcome back to the show. Working with the likes of WSU super crazy wrestling and modern vintage ring announcer commentator and all-time superstar Miss Risa Pappas. Risa, what's up? How are you?
 
Risa: Oh, I'm so glad to be back talking to you. And Marissa, I'm really excited to talk to you because I know that you have a ton of insights into this area in general. So, I'm hoping that we can kind of bring that expertise in with the wrestling expertise and hopefully, bring some things to light that make click with some people. And maybe there's some takeaways I'm cautiously hopeful that people can learn from all of this. So, I'm really happy to talk about it.
 
Rob: Yeah, thank you so much for a few minutes. And really quick just to get a little background on you. For people who don't know yet, Risa. Tells us a little bit about your work in the business and then also outside of the ring as well.
 
Risa: Yeah, so I'm in the business I do Ring announcing for super crazy pro wrestling for WSU. I used to work for another organization called SWF, which I don't know if that exists anymore. But I've been around for a little bit as a ring announcer. I've done commentary for a couple of promotions as well. And I was supposed to have a show this past weekend, and then ended up getting cancelled at the last minute. So, like its wrestling is restarting, it's in fits and starts that it's coming back. But I hope to be back on that circuit again soon doing what I love, because I really do love it. And in terms of what I do the rest of the time. I've kind of been interested in women's issues, and feminism and all that kind of stuff. Because obviously I have a good reason to be interested in it. So, I've been kind of a you know, an amateur scholar researcher of sorts for these issues for a really long time. But also, my job, my you know, shoot job, my day job is for a non-profit focused on women's workplace inclusion and Equity, and Diversity and all those good things. And so, we you know, it's my day to day thinking about this kind of thing. And so, when this #SpeakingOutMovement started, I was kind of like, thank God. Because from my perspective I've been, every time I would go to a show, I'm noticing all these things And I'm like, well, that's not cool. That's not cool. And that's kind of wrong, but I'm not going to say anything because everybody else seems okay with it. And I don't want to immediately alienate myself. And I think that's kind of the experience that a ton of women in this business have had. So, I'm hardly you know, it's not very boohoo me like this is this is very common of an experience to have. But as much as it's really terrible, but all of these people have experienced these terrible incidents of harassment, outright assault, stalking, manipulation, coercion, all that kind of terrible stuff. At the same time, this conversation is like 30-40 years overdue. So I'm glad we're having it, even though it's very late.
 
Rob: Yeah, man, so many things I want to ask you so I'll start with this. You mentioned you know, women are not just saying women, you know, it does it does go both ways. You know, obviously I think it is amazing, majority of women that we're seeing speaking out right now. We also, you know, also saw Keith Lee talking about a situation where he was, I guess, drugged in a drink, he woke up in the hotel room. So, it's really crazy right now, but you talk about people not saying anything. Do you think that is because and I think Linda had said on our last podcast, they would be viewed at as difficult to work with or not playing the game or paying their dues, you kind of think that's part of the equation?
 
Risa: Yeah, so you've touched on a couple of things there that I think are big causes of this problem. And I really, you know, Daisy Deville — Linda, she has way more years in this business than I do. And I think she spoke really well about some of the general day to day experiences that women have. I haven't been here long enough, I'm very lucky. I've never really had to deal with the majority of the things that I've been hearing about. I've had, you know, like low-level sexual harassment. Like people saying inappropriate things to me, people pulling me into a hug that I was not trying to have with them. That's really kind of been the extent of my experience. But I'm also way older, I'm not a trainee, I'm not put under any pressure, like I can just leave. And it doesn't affect me at all. Like I would rather be doing it. But if that's the situation that I walk into, and I'm not comfortable, I'm just going to leave. I'm not trying to make this my career. This isn't my dream. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not paying $1000s to a training school, but a lot of these wrestlers are. And when you're putting that kind of situation, why would you want to speak out against people who are totally showing you by accepting that behavior that is normal, and that you should expect it? So, it's counterintuitive for you to speak up. So, there's been a lot of really great supportive statements that people have been making. But there's been just as many people making the basically like, "well, you were asking for it" argument. Which is really toxic and crappy. But, you know, that's pretty obvious. But I think that there's, the issue is that there's a huge disconnect, I think, between those little things, and then full-on outright assaults, and things like that happening. That's what I feel, personally, is the biggest problem is that there is a huge disconnect between those tiny individual behaviors that are tolerated, and no one nips them in the bud. And then that's what causes that culture of, "Well, we didn't say anything before, we're not going to say anything now.” And then it gets worse, and then it gets worse, and then it gets worse. And so, I think that has to do with a lot of things. And it creates a toxic culture, but it creates that culture of silence. And that's what really, that's why the hashtag speaking out thing like, there's not it's not it's not a coincidence that it's called that it's the fact that nobody was saying anything. And now we've reached this tipping point that people can't not say anything. So, I want to kind of just rattle off a quick list if that's okay.
 
Rob: That’s why you're here.
 
Risa: Yeah, I've been thinking about this, like the things that I think contribute to this perfect storm of toxicity in wrestling. And one of those things is assumption of shared knowledge. So, I see something happened in the locker room, I assume that other people have seen this behavior from this person before. And that by no one having checked this person already, that they know about it, and are choosing to do nothing. So now I know that if that's okay with them, then I'm not safe and that's obviously very terrible. But there's kind of this assumption in the locker room that if one person saw it, it's in the locker room, everybody could have seen it and that's not necessarily true. There's a lot of things that can happen really quickly, really quietly, that not everybody was privy to, because everybody's in their own world, when they're in a locker room. They're talking about how their, how their matches going to go, or they're just BSing with their friends, or they're on the phone or whatever it is. So, I think that people kind of make this mistake of assuming that because they saw it, other people must have seen it, and someone else is going to handle it. That's not true. The huge factor, obviously, is a total lack of structure and a total lack of oversight. I think what a lot of people have done, because WWE is the pinnacle, the biggest, the ultimate, I think that people have tried in their individual indie wrestling promotions to model off of WWE. But they also don't have the money that WWE has. So, they're concerned with making money the way WWE has. They're not concerned with all the huge amount of infrastructure that WWE has. And I'm not saying the WWE is doing a great job. They're doing one of their setting the worst example like they are not. They're not setting goalposts, that anybody should be going for. The only goalposts I think is probably capital, like how much money that they're making. That's the only thing that people should be applauding them for. And you can make the argument that they're making the majority of their money, you know, by terrible means, such as not providing insurance for their employees and other underhanded crappy tactics. So, there's no structure of any kind, like there's no human resources. There's colloquially, the there colloquially, there's a term called locker room leader. And that's a person who your kind of who kind of steps up and takes charge of a locker room at any given time, and, you know, kind of lays down the law. I don't usually see that person. In my in my time, and I haven't been in like a billion locker rooms or anything. But in the time that I've been around, there hasn't been that person. I've never really seen someone step up and take charge. I've rarely seen people be like, okay, pre-show meeting. And even then, when there's a pre show meeting, they're not talking about like, "Hey, if you feel uncomfortable…,” like no one has ever said that to me. No one has ever asked me if there was someone that I was uncomfortable working with. No one has ever asked me if there was something I was uncomfortable doing. It's always been me having to assert myself and say, I'm not comfortable with that. So, they're not asking these questions, because they don't know that they should be because they haven't, they haven't dealt with any kind of actual structure. They're just doing this very indie, very grunge, very punk, very garage, which is scrappy, and under-doggy and cute as a story. But realistically, it's like you're dealing with human beings, who can get hurt in multiple ways. You got to be a little bit smarter than that. And there is no precedent set for that. You're either in WWE, where it's an actual Corporation, or you're working out of somebody's house. And you know, booking a venue at a fire hall. It's not the same thing at all. Yeah, there's also the issue of paying your dues. I'm sure you've heard that. It's very specific to wrestling, paying your dues. And the problem with paying your dues combined with the lack of any kind of oversight, the lack of somebody being in charge of handling people, is that paying your dues can be applied to anything. Most people think of it as like, “well, you have to set up and take down the ring, you're paying your dues.” Yeah. You know, I've set up and taken down the ring before I'm a ring announcer theoretically, that's not my job. I've done it though, because we're all putting on a show together, you know, step up and help out. And there's nothing wrong with that, like, can do attitude be a team player. But paying your dues can involve hazing. Paying your dues can involve coercion, paying your dues can involve just, you know, someone just treating you like garbage. It's never happened to me. But some of the stories that I've been reading are horrifying. So there's that and then there's the idea of the; there's this kind of general, I don't even know how to say this. And maybe you guys will be familiar with this. But like the, “Chick who can hang,” you know what I'm saying? Like the girl who is like a tomboy and hangs out with guys. And she's a girl, you know, but like, she rolls with us like she's cool. And that woman, like just the general being in the minority all the time. There are so few women's only wrestling organizations in this country. So, few of them, there's like four. And so in the majority of locker rooms, there’s, as Linda was saying I heard her mention like, yeah, there's probably like four to six women in each show. Like, that's a tiny number of women. So, we're not going to make a big deal about the fact that you didn't give us our locker room. We're not going to make a big deal about that, Because then we're, as you said, “Difficult to work with,” and you don't want to hear that. So, this this whole mentality of like, Yeah, well, she's like one of us and whatever and then then its kind of becomes like, well, if you're really cool, and this is not anything that anybody's actually saying, because then it would sound like an 80s High School movie, bad guy. But like you know what I'm saying like, no one's coming out and saying like, well, if you're one of us, then you'll go do this. Like it's not it's not so overt but that's the thinking. There are things that men and others think about that they don't know that they're thinking about. And then its kind of becomes like a “prove yourself” kind of mentality. Then all of a sudden, the chick of the group has to pay more dues harder than everybody else. She's singled out and you can you can make the argument like some people have said like, Oh, well, we don't treat women any differently. And that's stupid. You should be treating them differently. You should absolutely be treating them differently. You should be taking special considerations, because women are not men. I don't I don't know that that's breaking news or anything, but apparently to some people it is. Women are not men, you need to give women the room locker, you need to protect women from men, because as we've seen in shocking and overwhelming numbers, they're being victimized. And it's obviously you know, I'm not saying that it's all men And I'm not saying that, you know, women are the only victims. Not at all. I'm anecdotally from my own experience, though, this is what I'm seeing. And I want to Marissa are you, are you familiar with the pyramid of sexual violence?
 
Marissa: I'm not sure exactly what you mean by pyramid. But if you start to elaborate, probably pretty familiar.
 
Risa: So, if you like Google it, there's like 30 different versions of it online. I was looking for them trying to be like, well, which one's the one that says the most things I like. What is it basically kind of this pyramid showing that at the very bottom of the base of sexual violence, it starts with attitudes and beliefs that people have. Like slut shaming, and bragging about having had sex with somebody, and like locker room talk that famous locker room talk, and then its kind of goes on from there. And suddenly, it becomes normal to call a woman or comment on her body when she didn't ask you to. Or follow a woman around, or like, stalk them on social media. So then, and then it escalates from there. And then it suddenly becomes like actual coercion or like what happened to Keith Lee, like drugging, being drugged and groping someone without their consent. And then it gets worse and worse and worse from there. And there is a huge disconnect from just making comments, or like sharing names that call women bitches or whatever. Like there's a complete disconnect from that general attitude problem to these horrible accounts that we're hearing now in the speaking out movement. So, there's, Men don't seem to understand that when they're sharing harmful memes or talking crap when a woman or posting a picture of her and talking about her appearance like that is normalization, that's setting the stage for further violence to be enacted on women and other people. And that's, I think, kind of the biggest problem because wrestlers are on social media 24 hours a day, talking shit. It's their favorite thing to do when they're not wrestling. Any of them will tell you that and if they won't, they're a liar. Because it's part of it. But listen, there's a good reason for it. I'm not saying that, like they're all just chatty Cathy's, like, there's a really good reason for it. They have a lot of time, sometimes between shows where they're setting up angles. So, they'll use social media to further storylines, which is really a brilliant use of social media. However, there's also people who think well, because like, 20, people know who I am, I can say whatever I want all the time, and people won't really want to know what my opinion is, which is narcissistic and silly. But every time they like retweet or share something that's rude to women, I'm like, they have no idea. They think that they're just like, “Oh, women be like that sometimes.” Like, that's what they think they're doing. And it's so easy to do it. It's instantaneous. Yeah, I agree with that share. And they're not understanding that that's perpetuating more of what eventually becomes actual violence toward women. And I mean, good.
Marissa: No, sorry. I just want to say that first. First and foremost, I love listening to you talk I can listen to you talk about this all day. You're just like, very..
Risa: I’m sorry, I've been going on and on and on. I'm so sorry.
 
Marissa: I'm not. I'm not saying that at all. Like, I'm actually just sitting here taking a ton of notes on everything you're saying. I want to address the pyramid really, really quick, though. I refer to that as a staircase, because it's all about pushing boundaries, right? So, if you're validated at the very lowest level, you're going to take a step forward and push a boundary. It's human nature, but abusers do it in a really awful way. So, like you were saying, you know, putting something on social media and getting 100 likes on it, and then getting a couple shares, whether or not you have a bunch of comments that are like, wow, that was a really horrible thing to say or like, you should stop saying shit like that. Those people are easy to write off because the other 100 people that liked it are validating that thought. So, then it gets further and further and further and that's how it keeps progressing. And it's the same people that like you said that start with making derogatory comments towards women or towards people. And then you know, start sharing other things that are a little bit more explicit, little by little, they're pushing that boundary to see what they can get away with until they're, you know, drugging somebody or raping somebody or abusing somebody or making awful humiliating comments in locker rooms because there's no protection in there. Like it's all, I don't consider that a pyramid. I consider that a staircase, because you can always go back down the staircase. You know what I mean?
 
Risa: Yes, somebody checks you and goes, Hey, that's not cool, man. And then you're knocked back a peg. And then it's like, oh, well, then I'll just go back to sharing crappy news.
 
Marissa: Exactly, exactly.
 
Risa: And then eventually, I'll push it again. And maybe this time, somebody will not feel like shutting me down because it's awkward, or whatever. And now I've gotten a step further. Now I've gotten away with more. And now I'm setting the stage to escalate further.
 
Marissa: Exactly. And it's a disgusting, it's a disgusting cycle, right? So, if, you're validated by, if I put something awful online, and I'm validated by 20 people that I respect, but told, you know that what I put was inappropriate by 100 people that I don't respect, I'm still going to follow the validation bias.
 
Risa: Absolutely, why wouldn't you, you want to hear good things about yourself, you want to be told that you're doing the right thing. So, you're only going to listen to those people, you're not going to want to listen to your critics. They become quote, unquote, haters. And I don't pay attention to haters.
 
Marissa: Exactly. And it creates a culture of silence, like you said before, too, you know. If I'm putting something awful online, and it's about you, let's say I would never do that, because I think you're super cool And I love your Facebook posts. But let's say I put something awful online about you. And you don't say anything. And other people don't say anything it like perpetuates that thought of, “Okay, well, I can keep getting away with this.” And it just gets worse and worse.
 
Risa: And that's, I think, kind of the biggest thing and to me, and I think to a lot of other women, or people in the LGBTQ community who have to deal with this kind of crap day in and day out. It's one, like I have really far-reaching vision, when I see someone saying, Well, you know, boys will be boys and making that excuse. I see the end; I see how far it can possibly go from there. I see it going to, well, eventually that person might murder somebody. Because it's not a stretch for me. That’s seeing the inevitable end, when you're allowed to take that kind of attitude and spin it into an actual physical expression of violence. Like it's, you know, what is the expression that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line? Like, where do you think that these people come from? They don't just have like a switch that gets flipped one day, and suddenly they think raping someone's okay. That's not how that happens. It happens by starting out, saying really gross crap to people on the internet in anonymity, because you can get away with saying whatever you want on the internet, because our laws in this country have like zero accountability for that. And then it gets worse and worse and worse from there. And I think men don't have that perspective. Men are really short sighted about it, they'll just take that one thing that they said and be like, “Well, what I said wasn't even that big of a deal.” And maybe it's not. But is it possible that this isn't the only time that you've shared a meme like this? Or set a thing like this? Is it possible that this is one thing in a long line of you talking trash on women and normalizing women as the enemy of men? Oh, well, you know, men are sometimes rude you know about women, sometimes they can be bitches or sometimes they can lie and sometimes they're manipulative. And it's like, your personal life shouldn't be you shouldn't create the ability for you to make such sweeping generalizations about women. No one's asking you about your personal life and it's called personal for a reason. Like keep it to yourself, and keep that perspective to yourself. Don't perpetuate it, even if you have it. Like we've all been hurt by someone. Everybody's been hurt by someone. That's not an excuse to go out. And try to say that all women are awful because you got cheated on. It's not you don't you don't get to make that assessment. I think if anything, women are a lot more valid when they say things like that. But of course, also, it's you know, not all men are like that. Luckily, we have really nice non-awful guys out there. But those really nice non-awful guys, if they don't say anything, in the moment when someone shares a crappy meme or says something inappropriate to a woman in front of them, they cease being allies at that moment. And I think that's something that they don't necessarily think they're like, Well, I didn't do anything. But you don't have to have done anything to perpetuate violence on women, because you're allowing that atmosphere to exist in the first place. Like, everybody's accountable. Not everybody understands that they're accountable. And when I'm saying accountable, I don't want men to think that I'm saying that they are all to blame. I'm just saying they all have a responsibility to pitch in and help out. That’s what actually being an ally is.
 
Marissa: Exactly. Inaction is an action. Right? Not taking the stance is still a stance. By somebody not stepping up. If you see something like the airport, mantra, right. If you see something, say something, or, you know, if you see it, call it out, embarrass that person. I don't care if it makes you feel awkward, or it makes you look bad for a minute, it's going to make you look really good 30 seconds later that you stuck up for somebody being victimized. That's it. Like, if you see something, do something about it. Especially the Wrestling World, because everybody knows everybody. So, you know, that not only will that word travel, but like you're protecting your posse. These are your people. Protect them, if you see something, stop it.
 
Risa: And I think that a lot of guys understand inherently that sexual violence against women or anyone is like not cool. I think that they don't necessarily understand that link between what's happening in a given moment, and what they will allow it to happen. And there's a thing called what's it called the dilemma of like the bystander.
 
Marissa: Bystander Effect.
 
Risa: Yeah, or like how to be an active bystander. And it's like, you can't assume that someone else is going to say what you're thinking and if you're thinking it, and you're thinking about whether or not you should say something and speak up, chances are you should. Chances are, it's scary to do so. Chances are, it's going to be awkward and uncomfortable. But you know what, if you do that now, you're ensuring that the person who is being objectified or spoken to in an inappropriate way, you're ensuring that they have been, for the moment at least protected from that person who's saying that awful thing. And you're helping that person who said that awful thing to hopefully just not do that anymore. And possibly re-evaluate and go, Okay, well, I just got yelled at by a dude, not a woman, but a dude. So maybe I should think about that. Because unfortunately, there's a lot of men talking over women not listening to women, the tone of our voices is higher, like they tune us out, they've been conditioned to, it's a whole thing. Like, I'm not trying to, it's it sucks, because men are also victimized by the culture and because they are generally more privileged in that culture than women are, they don't understand that they too, are being hurt by this. But they’re being conditioned not to listen to women. And so, I think it's really important that men talk to other men and have these discussions and check each other, but also be cool about it and just like, it doesn't have to be a huge confrontation. It doesn't have to be like… I imagine when people get into arguments on Facebook, that they kind of feel like, there's a whole bunch of people standing around going, “Oh!” like, that's not happening. It doesn't have to be, doesn't have to be that much posturing and like, you want to throw down or like, it doesn't have to be like that, you can just be like, “Hey, you know, I feel like that wasn't really cool to say, and you probably shouldn't say that, like, not a big deal. Just you know, don't do that again.” And then if they want to escalate it from there, then by all means, go have a big long Facebook argument and waste two hours of your time. But if you don't say anything, it's not going to go anywhere. You're not doing anything. Never, ever, ever has solved this problem. That's why we're in this mess because nobody said anything. And now it's all coming in rushing out at once. And people are saying like, Oh, it's, the self-destruction of wrestling. I've seen a lot of people say that I'm like, Wow, you guys are insane. This is the golden age of wrestling right now. This is wrestling, actually joining the 21st century and being truly welcome and inclusive for the first time ever. This is suddenly becoming a huge priority. Like corporate America has had this revelation. I mean, it happens every generation but like, corporate America has been on top of this Corporate Social Responsibility thing for a minute. Wrestling is just getting on this tip now. Like this is a great time for wrestling because we're actually having these conversations like this could go a really great way to self destruction of wrestling comes when people go, "Yeah, okay, we know all that. And obviously, the culture of wrestling is so toxic that there's nothing we can do about it. So hey, let's just go back to running shows.” You know what I mean? Like, that's the destruction. That's when the ship is too far sunk. We can't possibly bail it out. Now we're done And I don't think that we're there. I think we're flying high. I think that this is a great thing. Like this is exactly what wrestling needed. And I hope that I'm not the only person who thinks about it that way.
 
Rob: That's, actually a great way to look at it. I like what you're saying Risa And I want to rewind a little bit if that's okay. You know, I think we all kind of say like, we're not surprised when I brought this to Marissa’s attention. I remember Marissa saying, are you surprised? You know, like, you know, in the world of athletics or pro wrestling, you know, which I guess for wrestling is a unique situation with a lot of the men and women athletes and all that. You know, we I guess overall, we're all not super surprised. But Risa, you know, let's rewind a little bit. You know, we see this move in taking off on Twitter, you see some of these big names, we've been pretty good about not naming names on this and that doesn't have to be the case. But we've been pretty good about it on it on this podcast so far, it’s just kind of the way it's been. But, you know, certainly take it wherever you want. But you see some of these names. I think there were one or two, I was like, yeah, that, that checks out. That makes a lot of sense. And then there… Yeah, exactly. And then then there's some, you know, I've had people on my show that I've literally went back and deleted episodes like, you see these things. You know, I was talking to Marissa about this last time, I think he the stat was less than 4%-5% are really false of these accusations. And, you know, statistically speaking, all that. Risa, you're just kind of thoughts =when you see some of these specific names, you know, I'm sure you've worked with some legends or like you said, people, like, X amount of people know who I am. So, I have this ego, and I can do whatever I want your kind of thoughts on seeing these names. And, you know, for me, like, I was like, Oh, yeah, that checks out and some others. I was like, oh, man, like that breaks my heart. Like, what is your kind of initial response?
 
Risa: Well, I think that, I mean, to kind of give this a little bit of, you know, broader context. It used to be that domestic violence was not spoken about. If a guy was wailing on his wife, and she had a black guy, nobody said anything. And she was entirely alone. And that's horrible. But that used to be very normal and wrestling, in terms of being like the rest of the world is always several decades behind in mentality. Because there are a bunch of older guys, former wrestlers who came up in that world when it was very carny-esque, and very much about being, you know, putting one over on the sucker in the audience, rather than trying to actually entertain people being positive and stuff like it is now. Like, it's always been a couple of decades behind. We've always had this hush-hush kind of mentality about domestic violence. And so, it makes total sense that there would be that kind of hush-hush mentality in the World of Wrestling. Oh, well, you know, I heard but you always hear the rumors, though, is the thing. Oh, well, I heard so and so is this, and I heard this guy did that I don't want to get into any names. Because, you know, this isn't TMZ like people can go on Twitter and see it Like, there's literally like a Google Doc somewhere that has all of them in alphabetical order, with links to the actual accusations. So, it's like, you can find this stuff if you want to. If you're curious, like, you know, and this, this is a great new resource. By the way, if you're if you're a promoter, and you're trying to put on a show, you better be checking that freaking list. You know what I mean? It's out there now. So, check that list and then, you know, consult with God or whoever, and say, okay, is it worth the draw that this person has to, to hire, you know, to bring this person in who might sexually harass my roster? You know, and maybe the accusations are kind of tame, and you're like, Well, my threshold is a little bit over that So I'm going to disregard this guy. You know what, I don't know. History will ultimately be the judge. But there's, definitely some people that I was very surprised by, but every time to go back to that domestic violence thing. Every time There's always somebody who goes, "Oh, I know that guy. He's such a nice guy." And it's like, of course, he's nice to you. He's your neighbor or whatever You're not married to this person. I mean, there's a huge, there’s a startling number of athletes in the NFL who have had domestic violence incidents. It's not surprising anymore. NFL is not cleaning it up. I mean, they just now backtracked on the Colin Kaepernick thing. So clearly, they're at least 10 years behind too. But it's there's always going to be people who you're surprised by. There's always going to be people who you're like, yeah, that guy kind of seemed like a psycho. But to that, I will say, it shouldn't be a surprise. Because if you look at the statistics, it shouldn't surprise you at all, that there are an astounding number of rapes that take place, and insanely small number of rapes that are reported. An even smaller number of cases that go to trial, and a much smaller number of convictions. There's no incentive for people to come forward unless they're telling the truth. So, when they come forward, you should absolutely believe them. But you also definitely shouldn't be surprised because it's astronomical. I hear different numbers on this, but like 1 in 4, or I've also heard 1 in 3 women will be sexually harassed or sexually assaulted in their lifetime. So, when you know that the number is that high, why would you ever be surprised that it's somebody who isn't outwardly nice? I mean, when you think about all of the, avalanche of exposed pedophilia cases in the Catholic Church, like, are you that surprised? They have a direct line to God, and they think that they can get away with this. So why would you be surprised that it's a person who was nice to you the one time you met them? Like that's silly. It's frankly, silly and naive. And women have had to grow up a lot quicker than men on this. There's no excuse for men not to tune in and get, get their mind correct about this, because we live it day in and day out. And so, members of the LGBTQ community. I mean, if you come out as a little bit not straight, you are subjected to a lifetime of BS because of it. So, and from people who are otherwise very nice people. But I want to say something really quickly about the, what you said about people who were like, “Well, you're I'm not surprised," that's part of the problem. And I've said it to, there's been a couple people who I'm like, yeah, I'm not surprised. That guy seems like a total psycho I met him one time didn't like him. And it's like, you know, what, I didn't have anything specific. I didn't have anything that I could point to and be like, oh, that guy just did or said or whatever. It's just a vibe. And so, I think that if you get that vibe from somebody, you kind of owe it to everybody else in the wrestling community, to you know, kind of keep tabs a little bit maybe. I'm not saying like go Gestapo on them. I'm just saying, a lot of times you get a vibe about someone, you get intuition, you get this feeling really like this person makes me feel unsafe. And if that's the case, you need to listen to that. Because there are a lot of people who are, there's a lot of young girls and training and whatever. There are countless cases of this now that have been brought to light. There's been all these cases of women saying, “Yeah, I thought he was a little creepy but everybody else was okay with him. So, I kind of ignored it.” And it's like, that's the exact thing you don't ever want to ignore. And it's hard because you want to be seen as a team player. And you want to become part of the family. And a lot of wrestling Federation's kind of have like a cult-like vibe to them where it's like, you are one of us, you must be one of us. That's a real thing. I was only very briefly involved, but I got that vibe like, Okay, all right. It's more prevalent in wrestling schools, where it's like you should be there every day of the week, even if you're not in class at that exact moment, always be around. And it's like, if that's the unwritten rules, if that's the requirements that you just sit around all the time and just be there, then you're just sitting there in harm's way with people who skeeve you out. And no one should be asked to do that. But unfortunately, it's like, well, who are they going to go and put on the show? Who are they going to call the person who hangs around the most the person is right in front of their face all the time. So there needs to be more safeguards in place at the schools like there's insanely a little oversight and Daisy was bringing this up. When you're talking to her about in New Jersey, specifically that the Athletic Commission, there's like no presence whatsoever. There's next to no regulation. And even in states where there is regulation, it's mostly about like, “Look, you have insurance, and do you have a medical person on standby," and things like that. There's very little oversight into like structures in place, and there are no structures in place. Like well, of course, you're going to have these positions that women and young people are forced into where they're easy to manipulate and coerce. Because there's zero reason or there's nothing in place to stop that from happening.
 
Rob: Yeah,
 
Marissa: I totally agree. Do you mind if I jump in really quick So I think you brought up a really, you bring up a ton of good points, and I just can't keep up with my note taking.
 
Risa: I know. I'm sorry, I'm all over the place.
 
Marissa: No, it's great because you're covering so many great topics. So, one of the things I want to talk about is how you said the school in the schools, there's no protection. It's such a vulnerable population, you were literally it's, I'm not in the Wrestling World, the only thing I can equate it to is the military. And it's like the youngling's are the most vulnerable population, because they have these people in power above them. In wrestling school, it's the teachers, the people training them. You know, those people are the people that are the segue. They're the gateway from the person training to being a professional wrestler. There's, you know, nobody else there. So, they are perfect victims. Because, you know, what are they going to do? They're going to go to, you know, a different trainer and talk about it? No, it's so scary. If you're being harassed by your, by your trainer, by a person you're supposed to trust, like, like Linda, like Daisy said, you know, you're supposed to trust these people to throw your body in the air and catch it, but you can't trust them not to abuse you. And so that's really important to see is that the vulnerable population are the youngest people, and there are no protections for them. And so like, what can we do to create that atmosphere of safety, and seeing something and saying something. And I also before I forget it, want to go back to vibes. There were a ton of times in my life, where I was in a situation with a person or with a group of people, and I like pinpointed a person. I'm like, I don't like you. And I didn't know why. Right? And it's just, it's so strong for me, I like feel that right away. And I never said anything. And then circle back five years come to find out that person is actually a horrible person and did these terrible things. And, you know, somebody came forward and spoke to me about and like, “Oh, shit, I went to elementary school with that person, I hated them, then.” You know what I mean? And so, I learned to, to always call it out, you don't need to call it out to the person you don't like. But I'll always subtly bring it up to somebody else in the group. And I learned that way, that I've actually never been alone, in feeling the way I felt. And it made it much more comfortable for me to start calling it out all the time. So, any situation I'm in if I'm walking around with my boyfriend, or if we're better example, if we're in a group with like a bunch of people, I don't know, or a bunch of people - mixed that I know and don't know. And I don't like someone I'll turn to my boyfriend be like, hey, do you get a weird feeling from that person over there? And nine times out of 10? He'll say yes. And if he says, No, then I go to someone else. Usually a woman, I'm like, “Hey, do you feel a little weird? Like that person said this thing. And it like, kind of made me my skin crawl? “And they'll look at me and be like, holy crap, do you read minds? And because we as humans are all connected by energy, and we read that energy, and we feel that energy. And so, feel empowered to call it out. And don't do it and put yourself in a vulnerable situation, but, but talk to somebody that that you trust or talk to somebody that, you know, in a situation or that might know that person just say, hey, do you get a weird, funny feeling from that person? And nine times out of 10? They'll say yes.
 
Risa: And a lot of guys, I think are doing a disservice to themselves by not paying attention to their gut. And it usually takes a woman to bring it up before they'll be like, Yeah, actually, that guy's like the worst. I don't I, the majority of the time, men are not the ones to say that it's usually a woman has to be like pointing out kind of what I feel is the elephant in the room. And then suddenly, it's like, opening the floodgates. Like, Oh, yeah, that guy seems like a piece of crap. You know, like, and I think it's so interesting. I think men need to kind of pay attention to their gut more and go, “Well, wait a second. Like if, if I'm getting a weird vibe from this person, Imagine what the women around me are feeling about this person.” Because to your point, like, I don't know, the science behind it, I would never claim to have any scientific knowledge whatsoever about anything. But anecdotally, you know, I think most of us can kind of walk into a room with two people in it. Having just opened the door, and immediately know that those two people were just arguing. You can feel it in the air, you can feel a tension. You can feel it. You can pick up on you can subconsciously kind of pick up on body language cues and other things like your body is an amazing machine of perception. It is taking in insane amounts of data all the time and processing them. And just because it's not something that you can see with your eyes or smell or whatever. Just because it's not one of the five senses doesn't mean that's not a sense. Doesn't mean it's not something you should pay attention to. And I think if men kind of decided that they were going to tune into that more, or talk to women about it more, I think that they also would be in a much better position. Because a lot of the times, people to the best of the point about the, you know, being an active bystander, a lot of times like someone, they're just like, waiting for someone else to open those floodgates. And now is not the time to wait for somebody else. You got to you got to jump on that now.
 
Marissa: I completely agree. 100%.
 
Risa: Okay, can I bring up I have like one more thing that I think is kind of important to bring up because I think maybe it'll help some people?
 
Rob: Absolutely.
 
Risa: I think there's, a bit of a problem with, for men who can't maybe kind of can't comprehend that women view men as heroes. In addition to maybe finding them attractive, or whatever. And, and Daisy kind of brought this up that like, she had to go pick up somebody from DX, and it was like, oh, what are you going to go do with that guy? And it's like, what? When you say that kind of stuff to a woman are firkin head spin. Because we've all kind of grown up with media that is catered to what's called the male-gaze, I'm sure you guys have heard of this. It's like pretty ubiquitous at this point. But the male gaze is the, that the audience the intended audience of visual media is a heterosexual CIS gendered man, because those are the people who are making them movies. So subconsciously, they're making them for themselves as the audience. And we, you know, it's a gift, the male gaze is a gift for women, because we understand now looking at things through men's eyes constantly, because there's very little media that's made for us that, you know, men are looking at us as objects. The hero of the story always gets the girl and it's like getting the girl itself is problematic, right? But women having viewed all this media growing up, through this male gaze, like we are able to see men being depicted on screen and well, wherever else as heroes. So, men are trained to see women as objects of desire, women through being forced to watch everything through a male gaze, are able to see men as both objects of desire and also as aspirational as people to look up to. Like, I may think that Jason Momoa is sexy. But I also find him inspiring as like, a hero figure in like, Aquaman. “Oh, you can freakin talk to fish, that's really cool. Wish I could talk to fish or whatever. And he's ripped, and I wish I could get ripped.” So, I'm able to hold these two different notions about that person in my head at once one super hot; two, really cool and I wish I could be more like them. And men don't get that opportunity. Because when they see women depicted on screen, they're typically only depicted on screen as something to aspire to gain, like an object or possession, rather than somebody to look up to. And so, I think men are kind of short handed a little bit by the male gaze and media because it's like, do you ever see a woman besides like, maybe your mom, you know, if you're like a really nice person and you care about your family. I don't know that men can really understand that they can be both attracted to a woman and also think that she's a hero and someone that they want to be like. Like, if you ask a bunch of men who their heroes are, they'll say, this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy. If you ask a woman who their heroes are, they'll probably mention other women. But they'll probably also mention some men. And so, I think men, men don't understand that women can have two separate kind of complimentary views about male heroes. So, when that woman comes into the locker room, and they're talking about how much they love so and so male wrestler, they assume that it's the same way that they would look at a woman wrestler which is in like, a sexual way or like an objectifying kind of way. Instead of being like, Oh, she's looking at this male wrestler, the way I look at that male wrestler, which is I grew up watching them on TV, and they're my hero. So, I think that's another thing that maybe the kind of lack of understanding about that ends up being detrimental to men. And I wish it wasn’t. Like I would love for men to be able to rattle off a list of their heroes  and have some women on it. And unfortunately, that's rarely the case in my experience.
 
Rob: Risa, I have so many questions for you really quick, I just wanted to say this kind of piggybacking off something Marissa was saying earlier. you know, you refer to kind of like the kids coming up in the army and such. We talked about this on the last podcast, but you know, on our show, we try to help the careers of these kids that are coming up. And, you know, a lot of my experiences with these kids have been so positive and, you know, I do worry about them. You know, I even asked, you know, one of them, like, how do you stay so humble, you know, I see who you roll with. These people are definitely going to be on TV, they're going to be stars of tomorrow, we want to support them. What is your kind of thoughts on like, us having these conversations now? And how that might help them? Like, what do you think the future is going to look like, for these kids? Is it going to be a lot of the same? Are they going to be better than, than we were? Not, not like you're doing these things, but our generation, I should say?
 
Risa: I mean, if you look at Gen Z, they're already the most tolerant generation out of all of the generations by miles. They're already way more tuned in. They like, you know, you know, they have friends who are bisexual. They have friends who are non binary. They have friends who are trans. It's not really nearly as much of an issue for a lot of them anymore, obviously, I don’t want to make to make sweeping generalizations. But I think that they're already kind of primed and ready to see the world in that better, more equitable way. The only thing that can knock that down, is the people that they look up to, that they work with in wrestling schools, and that they get into the ring with, the old heads. They, you know, the veterans. If, you know, there's a lot of veterans who spend the majority of their time and when I say veterans, I mean of wrestling, not actual veterans. But they spend a lot of their time just complaining about the young people. And it's like, you sound much older than you are, and you're also not helping things. And every time you take it upon yourself to knock them down a peg, you're teaching them that their mentality is wrong. And so, there is hope for the new generation of talent coming in. Yes, they're young, and so they're, you know, cocky and obnoxious. Like, who wasn't cocky, and not just when they were 17 years old, or 21 years old? Like come on. It's, you know, they tend to kind of get a bad rap. But that's just the way the generations tend to interact with each other, right? Like, kids these days, like, that's, you know, that's such a common refrain. But in this time, we have an opportunity here for things to get so much better than they are and for people to feel safer, and for people to be included. And for a diverse group of people to be able to show off and normalize that kind of diversity for future generations. This is all really great stuff. The people in the locker rooms who've been around a while, instead of being salty dogs about it, they need to embrace it, they need to encourage these younger talents, and they need to not make them try to feel as jaded as they are. Because there's a lot of, you know, chip on the shoulder mentality in locker room, unfortunately. And it's it doesn't just you know, just because you're crabby doesn't mean that you should try to affect younger people who are bright eyed and bushy tailed, and make them feel crappy, too. And unfortunately, I think that there's a lot of that. And that's the danger. I think that this new generation of wrestlers has a lot of promise. And I think that they can actually conduct themselves much better, so long as that talent and that that mentality of equality is nurtured rather than, you know, shit on.
 
Rob: Yeah, and I think it's up to like a lot of the promoters right now, and we know a lot of the good ones. But, you know, to kind of step up or, you know, the veterans even in the business to step up a little bit. And, you know, hopefully, you know, just having these discussions will all pay off in a very positive way.
 
Risa: And put more women in the, in the main positions in the organization. If you don't have a woman high up in your organization who's in the room with you helping you make decisions, you're going to have blind spots that you don't even know about. And that's common in corporate America, too. There's a big discussion about like women being on corporate boards and how there's very few of them. That's a known problem that they're working on. That's something that every wrestling promotion should be working on too. If it's just a bunch of old white guy sitting in a room, you're not going to be including everyone even if you think you are. And that's just that's so easy to correct just hire a woman. Just put a woman in your creative team or whatever it is. That's all it's not difficult. Just add people in, no one has to leave. No one has to lose their job. You just have to add in the voices that are missing.
 
Rob: Real quick, I wanted to ask. I'm liking this Risa-Marissa tag team here. You guys got a you know all the info here. But I wanted to ask you guys, Risa we'll start with you and then Marissa if you have anything just to kind of add in general, maybe Risa more from the business standpoint. And Marissa more from like the stats and you know, General standpoints. But let's just really quick, like, let's rattle off kind of like list of things that we can do to be better. We've touched on it a little bit already. But as far as the locker rooms, maybe separate locker rooms, as far as the locker room leaders, as far as the airport pickups, all that kind of stuff, Risa we'll start with you.
 
Risa: Separate locker rooms are really important. The problem with separate locker rooms is that sometimes it's like, well, all the actions happening in the men's locker room. And then there's just two women staring at each other in the women's locker room. And so, I think that, in addition to having a women's locker room, there needs to kind of be a space in between where everybody can kind of hang out. Where people are also not getting undressed at the same time. Because that's two totally different dynamics there that shouldn't be mixing together. If you sat there, you know, in your boxer shorts, talking to another person about your match, like, you know, things are going to end up getting left out. Whereas if you were in an area where you already dressed, or you were just kind of standing around talking about matches, maybe you would end up being like Oh, so and so is here, we should get her involved in this angle. Whereas like if they weren't in the room with you, because you're doing all of your strategizing in the locker room. So that's a, that's a thing, too, it's not just about separate locker rooms, because that can actually end up being detrimental to women, unfortunately. It's about making a communal space that doesn't involve decloaking. And, you know, like, that kind of potentially compromising action that's taking place. So that's something in terms of picking people up from the airport, I don't know, like, I haven't had to deal with that personally. But, you know, there should probably be at least two people that go and pick somebody up from the airport. That just doesn't, that doesn't seem like too much to ask. Add on, as I sent out a woman on to the creative team. Add a woman on as the as the locker room leader, like make co-captains or something. I don't know. But you need to add more women who are given authority and men that authority is bolstered by the other men that are also in charge. That needs to be validated. And it needs to be authenticated If you just say, oh, talk to so and so if you have problems, and then they look you know, demure and scared to be there just as much as you are, that's obviously not going to be very effective. You're not going to have confidence in that person. So, the whole organization has to back that person up. Codes of conduct that people have to sign that say sexual harassment of any kind is the zero-tolerance policy. I think that not allowing people to show up high is probably a good idea. There's a lot more of that than you would think, especially when people… you're talking about taking the other person's life in your hands, and you're stoned out of your gourd? That's stupid. It's so stupid. And the same thing with drunk. Like, if you have to get a load on before you can wrestle, you should probably, you know, go work on that — not in the ring with another person's life in your hands. So that's another one. I think also another really kind of no brainer thing to do is just be okay with having those kinds of uncomfortable conversations. Like get comfortable being uncomfortable, because you know what? Women have been uncomfortable this whole time. So as long as we're uncomfortable, men should be uncomfortable watching that kind of behavior from other men and not doing something about it. Like you need to be accountable as well. So, you know, we all have to be uncomfortable until women feel safe.
 
Rob: There's very good points there, Risa and Marissa. Throw to you, you know, obviously, uh, you know, you're learning about all these, this wacky business that we love so much over here. But, you know, I asked you before, are you surprised by all this? You know, we compare it to a lot of like athletics and stuff like that. Is there anything like you could add to that or just like, in general for, you know, organizations that have men and women to kind of, you know, make the future brighter and reduce any of these abuses or, you know, harassment issues.
 
Marissa: So, I'm really excited to learn about the Wrestling World. I think that this is so it's so cool. And it's much different than I, as a third-party outsider who has never actively participated in or watched wrestling, like, it's so interesting, and I'm very curious to learn more about the Wrestling World. But as far as keeping people safe in the Wrestling World, that's kind of where my head is at right now with you guys. And so, in comparison to other professional athletic organizations, they started too, when all of these accusations started coming out in like 2018, and they started taking them seriously not that they weren't coming out before that, but I know that baseball, created a program where they had a person come in and train all the players about what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior. Now think kindergarten level talking to somebody like you cannot touch somebody else's, butt without their explicit consent. You cannot say these things to people. I mean, like, very basic ground level, like, this is not okay, good touch — bad touch. And it's almost like we need to take all these people, and like mansplain to them, how to be appropriate with other people. And not just women, but like, with other people, you know? Like, you can't go and slap somebody, but because you feel like it. You can't, you know, comment on somebody's breasts that you have not had any sort of consensual conversation with, like about that with before. It just, it doesn't make sense. And it's abusive, and it's a power move. And that's all it is. It's about having control and power over a person. So, having that like, professional training about good touch — bad touch, and, and what's appropriate and inappropriate, might be a really good tool to utilize. And requiring that training be signed off before they're able to get in the ring. You know, and I know that it's a lot of indie stuff, and like underground stuff. So maybe there's no, I don't know, if there's like an authority that can oversee that. But maybe putting something like that into practice.
 
Risa: You can hire those kinds of you know, there are people who go around, and that's their job is they just do sexual harassment training. And there's a lot of, if you work for the state, if you work for a state, you have to go through that training, like I had to go through when I worked for a State University. I had to go through sexual harassment training. So, like, it's mandated in other parts of the work world. And I think that people kind of look at wrestling is like this fun, just, you know, extra thing that we all do together. It's a hobby, it's this, it's that like, okay, sure. But you need to be accountable to other people and keep people safe. Whether it's a hobby or not, you need to make sure that everybody's on the same page about what isn't acceptable,
 
Marissa: Right. I mean, I don't ever get harassed going to like a scrapbooking meeting. But if I did, like, say something. You know, it's a hobby, a professional, all of it, you need to always feel safe where you are, and the people in charge need to put that into practice. So, if you have any Hot Tips on who to contact for that, I'd be happy to do some training. I also have two more quick things, one, hold each other accountable, like we were talking about before, just to recap  You know, if you see something in a locker room, or you hear something, as a, as a human being that makes you feel uneasy, talk about it. You don't need to be abrupt or rude about it, but like, go to somebody that you trust or feel safe with and be like, hey, did that bother you too? And that validation, because chances are, it does bother them too. That validation will empower you; it will empower you to speak up; it'll empower you to say something next time, knowing that you have another person that will back you up. And the final thing I know, we're kind of talking about the different generations and how, like, the upcoming generation is super awesome. And I'm so in awe of the social change. They're already making, and they're like, not even old enough to vote yet. So, I'm really excited about that. I think that embracing the change, knowing that humans are resilient, like we are resilient creatures, but we do not like change. And that's why every generation has a beef with the generation below them. You know, because, you know, for boomers and millennials, right, like they hate us, for the most part of my parents doesn’t hate us. But like, a lot of boomers don't like Millennials, because we are progressive in a different way that makes them uncomfortable. And you know what, it sucks to suck. Like, humans, humans are resilient, we're progressive. And we're a culture that wants to keep moving forward. And us and the generations below us as well. I'm a millennial. So, like, my generation and below us. We want to see social change, we want to see everybody having equal rights. we want to see all of these beautiful things to create a culture of acceptance and love and equality. And the people who are older than us that don't want that. Get the fuck over it. Like that's it, you know. Embrace that change, be resilient. You know, get that stupid old school mentality out of your head. Women don't belong in the kitchen, you know, and that's it. And embrace that and be open to it. Because if you're not, you're on the wrong side of history, and you're about to get left behind.
 
Risa: Absolutely. What I think people don't understand is that this, this is this is a match. This is a wrestling match. This is a decade's long wrestling match. There are no time limits, because it's been going on since the beginning of wrestling itself. Pro-wrestling vs. abusers. And abusers you lost. You lost the match and the stipulation of the match is loser leaves town. You're done. Get the fuck out. It's over. There are no rematches, you got curb stomped by women, by LGBTQ talent, by male allies and fans who give a shit about the talent. So, get out. It's over
 
Marissa: Risa for President.
 
Rob: So, this is it. So, first of all, thank you, you know, thank you Risa for coming on and sharing your thoughts and being totally open and pulling back the curtain for us a little bit. You know, we do need to have these conversations. I super appreciate it. I know you just laid down the law but you know, we do want to put you over here as well. So, if anyone does want to you know, higher Risa and maybe in like maybe kind of a backstage leader role even, Risa does do commentating announcing for a lot of these great independent organizations. So, before you know, we see on TV, every week, Risa, where can people start hiring you follow you on social media, all that good stuff?
 
Risa: Yeah. I'm on Twitter at Risa Pappas. I'm on Instagram at Risa Pappas. I'm on facebook.com/RisaPappasRingAnnouncer so you know, it's me. I am findable. I have a website, RisaPappas.com, mostly focused on the 700 other things that I do besides wrestling stuff. But you can also get a hold of me through there. And I, you know, I'm not afraid to shamelessly plug myself because there's also an epidemic of women, you know, demurring and being like, No, I'm so bad at talking about myself. No. I know of which I speak. I'm old enough that you can't push me around. And that's the kind of viewpoint that a lot of people in these Feds need. Feds need to wake up. Because obviously, this is a problem. And if you don't get on top of it, you're going to get left behind. So, if you don't want to get left behind, you need critical thinkers you need out of the box thinkers, you need people who will tell you the truth. And I'm one of those people. So please, and I'm very difficult to work with. As in, I will tell you when you're fucking up. And so, if that's what you think you need, which if you're smart, that's what you think you need. There are, I'm here, there are a lot of other women like me, who have been dying for the chance to make an important change in this industry. So, jump on it. We're here. We've been here the whole time. We've been waiting for the opportunity in which you will actually listen to us instead of just brushing us under the rug. So, we're here come find us.
 
Marissa: Listen, we're starting and we're starting to hashtag difficult to work with.
 
Risa: Proud job difficult to work with. Love it.
 
Rob: Alright guys, well dropping the mic right there. Thank you, guys, both for a few minutes and everyone. You know, 2020 is testing us let's be better in 2021. You know, let's have these difficult conversations. Let's stay safe. Let's stay healthy. Let's stay positive and everyone take care of each other. All right, guys, for the BCP and Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast we are out.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, wrestling, wrestling world, nwa, nwa wrestling, harassment in wrestling, world of wrestling, national wrestling alliance, daisy deville,  wresting, world wide wrestling, online wrestling, women in wrestling, women and abuse in wrestling, women and speaking out, speaking out wrestling, wwe women, female wrestlers, ladies wrestling, gorgeous ladies of wrestling, Women in wrestling and sexual harassment, WOMEN IN WRESTLING ON SEXUAL HARASSMENT, SFW, accountability, accountability in wrestling,
 

Healing From Emotional Abuse: What Does Narcissistic Mean: With Trill Noel

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Before I start this interview, I just want to give a quick trigger warning. There's content that is stated and spoken about in this episode that's a little bit graphic and might make you feel uncomfortable or triggered. So, just go with the mindset that there is a trigger warning on this episode. Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today I have an awesome guest Trill Noel. He is working on this amazing documentary about domestic violence. So, I wanted to bring him on here and see if anybody wants to help him or participate. He has a master's degree in digital media arts and engineering from LSU and a bachelor's degree in digital art. He's a Mongolian social media influencer known for throat singing. He's also the CEO of Racism Revealed at Harmony Digital. Welcome, Trill I’m so happy to have you here.
 
Trill: How are you doing today? Marissa, it's nice to meet you.
 
Marissa: I'm good. Thanks, how are you?
 
Trill: I'm doing wonderful. Just I'm trying to get this project off the ground and make a difference out there for women everywhere.
 
Marissa: Awesome. So, let's talk a little bit about your project. Can you tell us a little bit about the documentary, the background, how you got into it?
 
Trill: The background of it is that a guy basically abused a woman for a period of time over the course of like six years, financially, mentally, emotionally, and physically. And he was unemployed for the most part, while she worked as a waitress making $3 an hour. She also had two kids with him, and it possibly would have been three had she not had a miscarriage, which he may or may not have a hand in. But while she's working this job to support a household of four, he was just running around outside wanting to be an athlete, and not helping or contributing, other than working a four-hour job every day as a dishwasher. He blamed it on the fact that she didn't let him get a job. Or she was so controlling that he couldn't get a job. And I've never heard of a situation where a woman with two kids is controlling a dad to not make money and contribute. And to this day, he still blames her for that. He dragged her by her hair, and she had him sent to jail because of it. And he never let that grudge go. In fact, at one point, he hacked into her phone or her Facebook and then started messaging family members saying you need to stay away don't talk to her anymore. She deserves this punishment that I'm giving her because she sent me to jail just for dragging her hair. He made light of the fact that all he did was drag her by her hair. That's all I did. That's not something to seek sympathy for. People aren't gonna sympathize with you for that. He even told it to his co-workers at a female lead cake business where he was a dishwasher. They said he couldn't even wash the dishes, right? They had to go behind him. They said he couldn't mop or anything. And he said, well, that's not my role in the house. It's not what men do in the house. That's just typical, traditional BS. And he'd said this to a place where there were four women working who were all single-parent mothers, independent, strong women that have run a business together for years. He goes to them and says, he starts talking about his fiancé and saying negative things about her just completely bashing her and berating her, behind her back. And then you mentioned to them all I did was drag her by her hair, I don't see why that's such a big deal. Then he also said, I don't see why I have to pay child support to my two previous kids, because I haven't seen them in six years. It's like you made them. That's why you pay child support. And basically, long story short, he choked her one day while she was holding on to her, I think two-year-old daughter. And then she finally stood up for herself got a protective order against him, so that he couldn't ruin her life anymore. But in doing that he ruined her life more than she could have ever possibly imagined. Because in the process of that she figured out that he hadn't paid rent in two or three months and they were being kicked out. And then she was homeless with her two children sleeping next to a swimming pool one night. At that point in her mind, I guess life broke. You get to a point where you just feel you failed as a mother, but you don't realize it's not necessarily all your fault. And she basically abandoned the kids at his doorstep one day, probably to the mom where he lives, basically, he's living with his mom now. And he is still unemployed even after this girl passed away, so he can't blame it on her anymore. I'm sure he'll use the excuse of COVID, to say that he can't get a job. But in reality, COVID isn't stopping people in his area from getting a job. It's not a breakout in that area. But what I was getting at is the kids were left at his mother's doorstep. And she went on a bench relapsed, possibly was trafficked before dying, and eventually overdosed, leaving the kids behind with him as the only person that can take custody. So, the kids right now that he gave away, the day after her funeral, he gave the kids back to foster care. So, the kids are now in for the foster family. And he's basically putting a front up in front of the social workers to get them back. And just to let people understand how bad of a front it is, the other day he said, I'm glad that black people have something to celebrate because Father's Day happened to fall during the same weekend as Juneteenth. I don't think he should be raising those two kids with that type of logic. I don't think anybody should be raising kids with that type of logic.
 
Marissa: I completely agree. That's extremely inappropriate. And I know that I've made the stance on my podcast and all my personal social media pages that I am all for Black Lives Matter. I think that any racist jargon is disgusting. He has proven to be emotionally abusive by gaslighting her and blaming and not taking accountability for anything, and being financially abusive, as well. So, how did you get involved in this Trill?
 
Trill: One day I was scrolling through my Facebook and I saw something on my newsfeed talking about how you shouldn't judge someone based on the actions of their past. Because people have constantly been trying to make light of George Floyd's death by saying what he did prior, many years prior, not within the hour of death, but years prior, days prior, weeks prior I could understand, but you're going back years. In one year, a person could fully change their entire life. Robert Byrd, who used to be in the KKK, in the Democratic Party, came out and said, I made the biggest mistake of my life, and then he spent the rest of his life atoning for it. Is he going to go down in history as being some vile villain and criminal because of what he did in his past? Or because of the actions that he did to atone for it? And this guy was currently doing actions to atone for the things that he did. He was a great father. And this guy isn't a great father. And he's talking about this guy who was a great father. His words were he deserved this because he wasn't Jesus. He held a pregnant woman up with a gun, he wasn't Jesus. Those were his exact words, basically. So, I went on and left a comment underneath that saying, well, let's look at your past and judge you based on your past. And then I looked into his Facebook and saw what he had in his past. As I was scrolling through his timeline, I noticed that he was writing letters to his now-deceased fiancé. And I started to feel bad for him. But then I saw something where he talked about having sex with her in the afterlife, and how once he meets her whenever he dies, it's going to be on like Donkey Kong. And then another alarming message came out when I found another post where it says, I found a pair of your pants and I can still smell you on them. I sleep next to it at night. Then other posts say please visit me in my dreams at night. I want to see you again. And her sister who passed away two weeks after her for unrelated reasons she I think hadn't pneumonia. He wrote a letter to his fiancé in January, she died in December 19. On the day that her sister died, he wrote this letter, and it said, now that she's gone, I know the two of you are up there talking about parts of me. And then later on in that same letter, he starts talking about their little spot in the car where he and her had like a moment of sexual intercourse or something. So, it's like even after death he's seeing her as a meth head and...
 
Marissa: An object.
 
Trill: An object. No, I was gonna say a piece of meat. Cause objects can have respect according to this guy because he has medals that he got, participation medals because he has asthma. And he participated in some of the Spartan races, he received some of those. And in the process of getting his things whenever they were being evicted, he didn't even interact with his daughter or touch her. This is after he had choked the mother holding the daughter. He completely ignored the kids grabbed his medals and said, these are my babies and joked and laughed like none of this mattered. Didn't see her struggling or depression or the pain that she was going through, the suffering that she was about to go through. He was laughing as he took his medals and walked away leaving them there to basically starve, suffer, God knows whatever. Because you know, a man can just up and walk out of a situation. Child Support was supposed to be involved at that point, but he didn't have a job. How do you get Child Support going on that? I'm sure the girl would have probably put him on child support had she been educated about the fact that you can still put a guy on child support, even if they don't have the job. Maybe she wouldn't have suffered and had to deal with so much. Because there's a lot of women out there that don't know a lot of the things that they're getting themselves into when they get with a guy. And this guy was a complete narcissist. And to this day is still a narcissist. His friends came and attacked him when he made that Juneteenth post. In fact, some of them sent me a picture of the post and said, I want you to put this in your documentary. I wouldn't have known about it had they not come to me and that's just to say how his loyalties work. No one's loyal to him because of the fact that he's such a narcissist. Even the ones that tried to tell him it was wrong, he argued with them and says, you guys need to just take the joke, it's just humor. If you're so sensitive, get off of my friend list, I'll delete you bye, and most of these were women. So, it just goes to show the cycle of what he's doing to women, and what he would teach the son that he has with her to do to women. On the other hand, he has two other kids from another woman, prior to this one, that he still has an active protection order against. She has full custody of those two kids, and he has not seen them in basically six years. It goes to say that he abused this woman, she kicked him out and banned him. Then he went to this woman and started this cycle again. And this woman, unfortunately, met her end because of [unintelligible at 12:30] he wasn't the one that killed her, but in my opinion, he added the ammunition that led to it.
 
Marissa: So, what is the goal of the documentary that you're making?
 
Trill: The goal of this documentary is to show what a woman has gone through. But the process in which I'm going to show it is going to be broad, it's going to be out there, and it's going to show what she posted on May 22, what he posted on May 22. So, you can actually see what it looks like in our modern-day and age when someone's being abused. Because it's not the same as back then where we have no record or we just go here say. They both have profiles that are public and I actually can make the comparison of what he was talking about on that day; where he's like, we had a non-violent argument and we just talked things out. And she's on her page saying, I'm so hurt right now and I'm so depressed, I've never felt so alone. That doesn't happen from a non-violent argument. It's just saying this is what really was going on. And this is what it looks like in our modern society. These are the signs that friends need to be looking for. But at the same time, whenever I say it's going to be raw, I'm going to be trying to get women involved telling their story bluntly on camera, not blurred, not voice changed. I want people to hear the cracking of your voice when you say the story that you went through. I want them to see the pain on your face, the tears that may come out of your eyes as you're talking. Because a lot of stuff that happens with women that have been abused, whenever they come forward on a documentary or anything on TV it's blurred for their safety, obviously, I understand that completely. But I'm looking to make a story where there's women that come out, and they're not afraid. The same way that I'm not afraid to stand up against the racial injustice in my country. As a black man, it doesn't matter if I'm hidden or not anymore, I'm still going to die on the street from a cop shooting me because I had an inspection sticker that needed to be changed. Or you know I passed up a stop sign by a few inches. That's enough for them to pull me over and then I go to grab something in my car and they racially profile me and attack. So, right now it doesn't matter whether I'm blatant with what I'm doing or not. So, I feel like that same motive needs to be thrown to this problem with women. Because that's what started this. That's what started me on this process. He through something very racist out. And I approached it with the same approach that I'm telling women to use right now.
 
Marissa: How can we contact you or get involved?
 
Trill: Anybody that wants to get involved, all they need to do is send me a video recording of them talking about statistics, information, anything involving their own personal story. They can hold up a photo of their abuser, they can hold up their abuser's name on a piece of paper and light it on fire. I want this to be raw, I want people to really see what they feel. The same way that there's videos of black people burning the Confederate flag now, or statues coming down, they're seeing it raw, with the true emotion behind it. They can send that to me on Facebook, my name is Trill Noel, T-R-I-L-L, N-O-E-L. Or they can email it to me at trillguun@gmail.com. It's T-R-I-L-L, G-U-U-N@gmail.com. And they can send me a video that they've uploaded to Google Drive or Dropbox or any location because you can't send anything over 25 megabytes. And it'll be thrown into the story and used. As long as it has their face in it, it really doesn't matter to me, just so they're telling the truth, and how they feel about it. Because I want people to see it on the faces. We can't stand in silence and hide anymore.
 
Marissa: It's humanizing to see someone talking about their abuse. And it's really eye-opening for people who haven't opened up about it or haven't dealt with it or acknowledged it yet to see that there are human people that are dealing with something similar to what they are, you know, it's very helpful.
 
Trill: My reasoning behind it. And the reason why I support my take on delivering this documentary is because of the fact that whenever I looked my exes in the eyes, or the girl that I'm with currently, the mother of my child, on a day where I saw the pain written in their face, it showed me that, maybe I was being wrong, maybe I did something wrong. And I'm hoping that other men seeing this, looking at in the eyes, you know, you see it written on the face, it makes a huge difference, as opposed to reading it in text, or hearing it or seeing it but the face is blurred. I don't connect on that point. It doesn't become interpersonal anymore. For it to be interpersonal I need them to actually have their face there. I need to be looking into their eyes as they're speaking. So, when I share this on social media, and for those of you that don't come forward and tell your story, as long as you're on board with the project, and you share it through your network of friends, that's enough, that's you participating. That's all it takes nowadays is a social media spark that becomes viral, that becomes a flare, that becomes a fire. And something will happen because of it.
 
Marissa: Thank you so much for talking with me today about this project, and about your goals and helping the community of domestic violence survivors get their voices heard, and speak out against abuse and abusers. I think what you're doing is very admirable. So, thank you for your hard work. And for everything that you're doing to hopefully change this man put him behind bars. I don't know find him in a swamp, I don't care. But thank you for making the world a safer, more aware place for survivors. I think that that's incredible work. So, thank you.
 
Trill: You're very welcome. That is my ultimate goal is just to make something change somewhere or hopefully by the end of this there's like a GoFundMe for those kids or something. Or something could be done concerning this. Maybe donated to the children or the foster family that has her or some type of action can be taken against him getting them back until he has come forward with an apology or a heartfelt statement of truth behind the actions that he did. Because at this point, he has not suffered or felt any type of punishment towards the actions that he did to this girl. All he's doing right now is blaming her even after she's gone, he's still to this day saying the things you did really messed up my life now. I can't do things because of you. He's enabling himself by blaming her.
 
Marissa: Clearly, he's a narcissist, clearly, he doesn't have a concrete foundation in reality but that's a very typical abuser move. They do everything they can to not have any accountability for their actions. They gaslight, they lie, they manipulate, they coerce. It's horrific some of the things people go through with their abusers. But I've sent you over my video, and I hope some people listening will also feel empowered and send videos to help because I think that this documentary is going to open a lot of eyes.
 
Trill: Yes, ma'am. And thank you so much for having me on your talk show. The last thing I was going to say is that I've been spending the past two weeks just going through domestic violence groups, listening to women from all over the country of different shapes, sizes, colors, telling me everything that they deal with, and it's awful. As a guy, I've never known all this was taking place until this hit me. That's why this story needs to be made. How can we not abuse or cause abuse if we've never known that it exists? Or we've never understood what it actually is? It's the same thing as racism. It's like, how can this person who's racist realize that they're racist if they've never been approached about it?
 
Marissa: I think that's a really good way to describe it. You know, its ignorance is bliss. And it's because if you don't know it exists, or you don't see it, it's easy to judge from the outside say, oh, well, why did they go back? Or why didn't they just leave or call the police? Well, it's not that simple. There's a much more emotional toll that it takes. And you know, there's love there. And I mean, there's a million reasons. But if you have never had a true heart to heart conversation with someone that went through it, or never opened up to listen to somebody who's gone through it, you'll never truly understand. So, I think that if that's the demographic we're catering to educate and to make them aware that this is a pervasive problem in our society, I think that that's extremely admirable.
 
Trill: Thank you very much for that. It's an honor to work with you on this project. And it's an honor to work with these women that are getting involved with this project. And even those that aren't, it's an honor to know that I'm doing something that makes someone else's life easier somewhere. Right now, I should be focused on participating in the Black Lives Matter protests, fighting for my racial and justices that I deal with in the South because I'm in Louisiana. This is where the KKK originated. And I'm not. I'm over here making a story about a white girl who's with a white guy. It just goes to say how much it moves me. The plight that she went through is more than my plight as a black man right now. There was no escaping that. It felt like I was watching someone who was someone else's slave. But it's modern slavery. It's not the same. No one has ever controlled me as a black man. Other than whenever the laws around, but she was controlled 24/7 in the household. And that's just awful.
 
Marissa: I love that analogy that it's modern slavery. That's powerful. You're totally right. She was very trapped, and controlled, and manipulated. It's everything slavery and indentured servitude was. And it's still happening, but because it's silenced and underreported it's consistently overlooked.
 
Trill: I think this project will get some voices speaking. I watched The Handmaid's Tale. And after that, I started to see things that women go through on a different level. Because me being in film, I read that movie like film as literature, I didn't watch it for entertainment. I was watching it to see the motives going on. The director’s intentions, you know, how they were communicating each thing and what these actions meant. I think that partially made it to where when I saw this, I was able to see under the radar instantly. It's just like, we don't have that in our society where there's a group of women that get together like this and come out on the front line, saying, we are suffering, we are being abused. Here's all of our voices at once.
 
Marissa: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing this vision with us and for, again, doing this amazing work. I really appreciate that you came on and talk to us about it. And I especially appreciate that you're working on it and have such a big heart for it.
 
Trill: You're very welcome. And I hope to communicate with you in the future moving forward. And I'll definitely update you on what's going on with this project. And anybody that gets involved will be updated to my page as well.
 
Marissa: Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm really excited about this extremely important documentary. I think that this documentary and this information can be vital to helping millions of people who have been abused speak out because they realize that they're not alone and the things that they went through are relatable with millions of other people. If you're concerned about starting your healing journey, and you just don't know where to start, I've created a program called the Rue Approach that teaches you how to heal from your abuse in five simple steps. You can find the book available on my website, marissafayecohen.com, or on Amazon, The Rue Approach Healing from Abuse. If you need anything else, feel free to contact me via social media or email. All of that information is in the description. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you have a great rest of your week.
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
Trill's Email : Trillguun@gmail.comTrill's Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/trilljnoelMore Info : https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=260072521920388&id=100037529256474
 
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Healing From Emotional Abuse: Jeffrey Epstein Didn't Kill Himself: A Commentary on 'Jeffrey Epstein: Filthy Rich'

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Today, I want to discuss a documentary on Netflix that I was encouraged to watch by a lot of people.  I was very hesitant at first because I thought it would be triggering or too much. And it turned out to be actually the perfect amount of fact and heart-wrenching detail.  I do want to give out a trigger warning just to be safe.
 
Anyone who followed the Jefferey Epstein story knows how it ends.  Whether you choose to believe it was a suicide or a homicide is up to you.  I will say, there is mounting evidence  to really show that it was not a suicide. We know what we read online and heard on the news.  But nobody knows the in’s and outs of the story like the brave champions that spoke out against him.  The story is convoluted and heart-wrenching as is every story of sexual abuse and human sex trafficking.  But what makes the Jeffery Epstein story especially horrific, is the amount of Hollywood elites, royals and public figures that participated in his mysterious trafficking ring of underage women, and how he consistently avoided any consequences for all of his actions. 
 
I’ve recently watched the documentary: “Jeffery Epstein Filthy Rich” on Netflix, and I have a lot to say.  I think it is something everyone should watch, just to educate yourself on how trafficking rings work, and how abuse of power played a monumental role in the things this monster and all of his friends and cohorts got away with. 
 
Unfortunately, most people think that sex trafficking only happens  in other countries.  But the United States has one of the highest rates of domestic human sex trafficking in the world. It happens in our backyards, we just need to be more aware of it.  I’ll try not to give a lot away, but I will just make a blanket statement now that all the names mentioned of alleged offenders are based on flight logs recovered from Epstein’s private island and various first-hand witness testimonials, and are, at this point, opinions.  Also, Spoiler Alert.
 
Having worked with sex trafficking survivors, and having been very educated on the topic, not a lot of the information in this documentary surprised me.  For example, Epstein, who lived in New York; Palm Beach, Florida; Paris and the Caribbean where he had his own 70 acre private-island, preyed on young women in low-income areas of West Palm Beach, which is just a short drive over a bridge from his home in Palm Beach.  He had several well-known socialites as his accomplices and scouts to recruit young women. They would frequent one of the 12 local middle schools and high schools to recruit vulnerable girls.  They were all attractive, relatively young, wealthy women, and they were personable and friendly, which made it easy for young, impressionable girls to follow. 
 
And like an abusive relationship, it started slowly.  They offered these girls money and an escape from their reality if they would only give him a massage. And from there, they learned about these girls and what they wanted, and exploited that.  They offered them financial compensation for sending over their friends to him.  So, he didn’t even have to do anything.  These girls, a lot of them coming from dysfunctional households, needed money to survive, and this was an easy out for them.  Some as young as 14 years old were brought to him, and abused and passed around to his friends (allegedly, including Donald Trump, Bill Clinton, Prince Andrew, Ghislaine Maxwell, Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, Alan Dershowitz, and Woody Allen.  Everyone, including Maxwell, Prince Andrew, Trump, and Clinton, submitted denials which are included in the documentary.)  
 
Now that you have a visual of 40 and 50 year old men being massaged nude by 14 year olds, it gets worse.
 
Remember that private island I told you about?  Well, he essentially used it as a hub for sex trafficking.  He would fly his friends, these high-powered elite men and women to his island, and set them up with young women, to use for their pleasure.  A former employee of Epstein who worked on the island was seen on the documentary, and asked about the things he saw while he was there.  He mentioned seeing former president Bill Clinton, and Prince Andrew, Duke of York on the island.  He disclosed some of the interactions he witnessed, primarily with Prince Andrew, and it hurt my heart. 
 
But what really grinds my gears about all of this, aside from the fact that it all happened, is that the Palm Beach police were on to him.  Criminal cases against Epstein at the federal and state level mysteriously fizzled out.  A 53-page 2007 indictment against him involving more than three dozen alleged victims led to a sweetheart deal in which he served just 13 months in a private wing of a Florida County jail, which was approved by US State Attorney Alex Acosta without any of the victims or their lawyers having any knowledge of it.  While in jail, he wasn’t even required to stay in jail during the day.  From 8am to 8pm 6 days per week, he was allowed to roam the streets, meet people for coffee, and act as if he wasn’t in jail for one count of solicitation of prostitution and one count of solicitation of prostitution with a minor under the age of 18. The only two charges he got out of 3 dozen alleged victims coming forward. There was a small group of investigative journalists, detectives and police that were following this man, and he somehow slimed his way out of everything.  Even the FBI, who received reports from his victims, and was receiving insight and support from Palm Beach police, suddenly dropped the case.  With all of the mounting evidence, the paper trails, the reports, and everything, they couldn’t put him away, because he had blackmail on everyone.  Everyone was afraid of Epstein.  Think of something scarier than one person controlling the most elite and powerful people in the United States like puppets.  He got away with everything because he controlled everyone around him.  To me, there is nothing more frightening than that.  And to his victims, he would throw that fact in their faces, consistently.  One of his victims was on the run for over ten years, and still received threatening messages from Epstein's sidekick Ghislaine Maxwell, stating that they knew where she was and that they could come get her at any time.  How terrifying is that?  I mean, I’ve experienced stalking, and it scared me so badly that I didn’t sleep for three weeks.  And I’m not exaggerating.  Think about that feeling of being followed and needing to hide from a rich, powerful man who could destroy you and your family for ten years?  I mean, I can’t even begin to imagine what that woman, and hundreds of others who were victimized, stalked and threatened by him, felt.
 
I won’t give much else away because I want you to feel compelled to watch it and form your own opinions. But I’ll leave you with this.  The testimony and interviews with a few of his survivors are so honest and raw, and so important for the world to hear.  After these women spoke out, some very publicly, it sparked a wildfire of other survivors speaking out against Epstein and his cohorts. 
 
I am so proud of the amazing people that stood by Jeffery Epstein Champion’s.  The Palm Beach Police force, detectives and investigators, the lawyers of the champions who fought for justice and continue to fight for reparations for the victims; and all the people who had to continuously fight through the bureaucratic nonsense of officials being paid off and owned by a sociopathic pedophile, rapist and sex ring operator.  What they did for these champions is heroic.  They helped give the voices back to Alicia Arden, Chauntae Davies, Maria and Annie Farmer, Michelle Licata, Sarah Ransome, Shawna Rivera, Virginia Roberts, Haley Robson, and Courtney Wild, and the hundreds of other who are either no longer with us, or chose to remain silent. Thank you for working so hard to find and stop these monsters.
 
These incidents changed these women’s lives forever.  The fear, the abuse, the belittling and vulnerability they exploited lives within these people.
 
Michelle Licata, in the first episode says, "Before Epstein, I was something else.”
 
I hope for their sakes that all his cohorts are arrested and tried to the fullest extent of the law.  Justice is deserved for  all Epstein’s victims.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Healing From Emotional Abuse: Narcissistic Women in Relationships: with Francis Wade

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. I am so excited. June is one of my favorite months because I am a pride-freak. I love Pride Month. And so, every week, this month, starting this week, I'm going to bring on an amazing person from the LGBTQ community to help me co-host tell their story, talk about how we can help the LGBTQ community with the people and survivors and champions who are abused, get the help and reassurance that they need. Today, I am thrilled to bring on Francis Wade. She's a musician and an educator. She has been a long-standing fighter for social justice and shedding light to anyone who she can help or represent when their voices aren't being heard. She's a friend to all and constantly acts as a progressive figure in education, the arts and more. Welcome, we're so excited to have you here.
 
Francis: Thank you so much for having me.
 
Marissa: Of course. So, let's get started a little bit, would you mind sharing your truth with us?
 
Francis: So really, it's you know, nothing to extraordinary. Been an artist, my whole life, visual art, music, anything like that. And I would say that's a huge portion of who I am. And I identify as bisexual. And that is really,
 
Marissa: Okay, that's awesome. So, I'm a big art fan. And I'm super jealous of musicians, because I can't play an instrument to save my life, although I try. So, thank you for being here. Would you tell us a little bit about what you went through?
 
Francis: Yes, so long story short, I did lose a parent, in my early 20s. And I always identified with that parent, you know, our personalities, things like that were very similar who we were. So, I was about 13, when I was in my first same-sex relationship. You know, it was something where I wasn't really sure because I was young, I was in middle school. And, you know, it ended badly, of course. In high school, I just kind of like, didn't really let that part of me live. So, when I was an adult, and I was going through all this stuff, basically, a very manipulative person, kind of got an inkling about who I was, what I was into. It was like, love bombs, like, I felt like I was seen for the first time, I felt like, I all of me was there. I felt like every piece of me was appreciated. And it got to the point where I was like, okay, maybe this could be a good relationship. I was actually on and off with this one male for about 10 years, you know, high school, middle school college, we ended kind of for good before that. So, when I got into the relationship, there was a lot of pressure where I was kind of still hidden, I didn't really want to be all that open. And that's really who I am in general. I'm a very private person. And I like to kind of keep things to myself. So, whenever we were out, or whenever, like, you know, my family came up, and I wanted to be private, or maybe I wasn't ready to tell this person, they would turn to like, kind of like this game where it was like, “Oh, well, Are you embarrassed by me? You know, you aren’t embarrassed when blah, blah, blah.” And it was very new to me. And like I said, a parent passed. So, I was very vulnerable. And I was like, well, this person sees me, and they like me. And she's constantly like showing me that. So, way before I was ready, I was basically told, you know, you have to tell your other parent. And I only knew this person closely for a couple weeks, really. So maybe about a month. So, I was kind of unsure where it was going. And I didn't want to like jump through that hoop. Because to me, I was like, Well, I don't really know where this is going. I don't know if this is something, I'm even comfortable with. Because again, it's a lot different when you're like 13 kind of unsure. And then you go to being in your mid 20s. You know. So long story short, I told the parent, you would have thought I killed somebody. And I think a lot of people in the community can relate to that. You know, where a parent or even a family member who's like a parent to them is disgusted. They act like you killed somebody. They just say “Oh, so you're gay,” this and that. Like it's one extreme or another. So first it was my family that seemed to turn against me. And, you know, I think they had an inkling that I could be queer. But what really sucks about it is that when it comes to a head and you're open about it, you might not always get the support you need. So that was damaging, because I am very close to my family. And I was never like a problem child. If anything, I was probably the easiest one out of my siblings. So long story short, that definitely put a damper on everything. So, after that, I felt like there was this upper hand that always existed, where “are you embarrassed of me?” And I'd be like, No, you know, if you were out and I saw old friends, “how come you didn't introduce me to them as your girlfriend.” I was like, Listen, like, you’ve been out a long time. I'm like, just getting used to it. And I felt like it was more about her than me. Like, my comfort came second.
So as time went by alcohol was a really big thing. I think no matter what kind of relationship you're in, same sex or not, it's a problem when one person or both drinks. So, our first like big fight, we were out. And I remember I was talking about something I did, as a musician, and I was proud of it. And art, you know, my visual art was also a part of this experience. And it was local. And right away, she was kind of talking down to me, acting like I was exaggerating. “Well, I don't really think you would do something so big like that. And you know, and I wouldn't have known about it,” and knew me like our age is, you know, there was a little gap. I'm trying not to be too specific, but the bottles kept emptying and it turned into, “Oh, well, you probably are lying, you're not really a musician, because you're also on the educater side, you're not torturing." Which I actually did tour around the world before, but whatever. So, the abuse turned more into like, I would question my worth, because any outstanding thing I did for myself, I always needed proof. But I always had to back myself up, I never could be the one in the relationship who, you know, had had accomplishments that outweighed what she was doing. And again, I don't think it's just in the community. So now moving towards the community being bisexual, especially when you're a female, it always was like, “Oh, that's disgusting. Like, you've had men inside you, you've kissed men, you're going to leave me for a man, this and that.” And I think in the community, that's something you do see a lot, being a woman who is bisexual. You're kind of seen as this, like, not fully queer character in this line of their story, or whatever. And that really bothered me because it doesn't mean that I need one or the other. It's not like that. If I meet someone I'm into, I want to stay with them, no matter what. And I think that's very common in those relationships, because she did identify as full-on lesbian. Never been with a male. That's definitely something that seemed to be a problem very openly. And even if I saw like an ex or like a guy friend, "oh, who's that?” you know, and it became very possessive to in some extent.
So, the real abuse started as summer and the weather started warming up, we would go out more. And alcohol was a huge problem, like I said before. So we would go out and she'd always invited me out with her friends. And one night, it was getting close to her birthday. She texted me and said, “Hey, I'm out at this place with these people. Can you come join us?” So, I go sure. So, I get there. And right away, we're talking about like her birthday, things like that. She was saying in front of all her friends. Oh, no one's doing anything for my birthday. She doesn't want to do anything for my birthday. And I had plans, actually. And I was like, hey, like, it was a surprise, you know, right away, it turns into like, Oh, well, you didn't tell me that. I was like, of course, that was a surprise. So then like, again, and even though I nicely intended for something to happen, it turned into this like, “Well, I didn't know about it, so it's not good.” So, we drove to another bar to meet her friends. And I was like, okay, maybe like, if we get out of this one, please, like, get some air, things would be better. So, she starts smoking in my car. I'm severely asthmatic. As you can probably hear my voice. I don't do well when it's humid or anything. So, I said, please don't smoke in my car. And then she's like putting it out on my seat, just like totally disrespecting me. And then she made a comment and goes, you know, you might try to act like the hero and like, you do these nice things for me in front of people. But I'm just saying if I wasn't with you, no one would want to date you. You might be prettier than me. You might be more educated, and you might have a better career than me. Ultimately, no one, you're just a pretty face and no one would put up with you like I do. And, you know, there was so much more that night that was said. So, when we got to the other restaurant, you know, when it's kind of like this time of year, some nights it gets cold. So, it was a weird night, it dropped down to about, I'd say, like, low 40s. And it was kind of random. But anyhow, so when we got to the other bar, she was like, “Oh, you know, you should leave. No one wants you here, blah, blah, blah.” And this was after, you know, the car ride, getting very verbally abused and pushed down. So, I go, you know what, I'm going to leave, and she goes, then leave. So, I left. And then she texted me about an hour later. And this was something she loved doing. But I'll get into that in a minute. She texted me goes, how could you leave and embarrass me like that? All my friends think you're an asshole,” this and that. And it was like, I couldn't win. Either, I had to submit to this abuse constantly and like play it off, like it didn't upset me and sit through it, when like, I really cared about this person. Or, if I did do something to get myself out of it, I was, I was just as bad. You know, I was the bad guy. So, it was like a mind game. If I was with other friends, especially females, I would get accused of cheating. And at the time, I was living kind of far away for work weekends, you know, I would come back to this area and stay there. So Oh, you're sleeping with your friends up there. And like this person's gay. One of my friends actually was pregnant at the time. And she convinced her sister to message my friend and basically outed me to find out like if we had something going on, and my friend was like, Well, I didn't know. Because again, like, she doesn't need to tell me these personal things. And to like, why would you think she was doing something with me, like, I'm pregnant, and my friend actually didn't want anyone to know she was pregnant. But in order to stick up for me, you know, she had to kind of out herself as well, before she was ready. And that's really what a lot of it was. It was control. And when I said like, don’t you think it's messed up that you convinced a sibling to like, pry and stuff. She couldn't see it. So really, it was a lot of narcissism. It was a lot of emotional abuse and physical abuse, I grew up with brothers, they always were being on me. So, you know, when someone gets in my head and messes with me, personally, it's a bit harder. And I think a lot of the reason why I stayed was because this was my first relationship with a same sex person. And I was scared that I was going to get exposed. I was scared that, you know, those restricted calls in the middle of the night, would turn into a Facebook status, because she was drunk and wanted all this build up. She wanted all this, like public attention to me and her. And that was something that scared me. And we were just fundamentally different people. And, you know, she was going through her own stuff at the time, I'm not going to deny that. But I feel like because it was really my first time with someone like that, it affected me differently. And another thing was, you know, with my friends being female, I feel like that always fell into the equation. I couldn't have any female friends. I couldn't have any male friends, because I was Bi. If there's any questions you have, or want me to expand a little more, but that was just a somewhat, but not really brief overview of what I went through.
 
Marissa: How did this relationship impact future relationships for you?
 
Francis: So, what's funny is I'm talking about how abusive it was, and things like that. It pushed me down. So, my relationships after that were very similar where I, you know, not to the same degree, it was a lot of myself wasn’t in it. I would drive an hour to me, my partner. I would not care if they hurt me. I would let them dump me and take me back when I knew I would just get left again. And it was kind of like a string of behavior that just wasn't really, I guess a good way to say it is I just felt like, I didn't know that I deserved better. I didn't see value in myself. And it was a long-term effect, where last year and again, this is years later, I was in a relationship where I was being cheated on and I even that I was like, “No, it's okay, you know, like we can get through it.” And now that I am in a healthy relationship, I look back and I'm just like, how did I not see my work? How did I not know that this wasn't okay for me, how did I let a series of relationships happen where I was being, you know, they weren't caring about me. I was being neglected. I was being ignored. I was being mistreated. And I think a lot of people don't realize that you really do reach this point where you feel low. You feel like you're undeserving of better things, and you kind of settle, is the way to put it.
 
Marissa: That's a really good way to put it actually, I think a lot of people, it happens to so many people, we have this abuser who demeans us, and belittles us and convinces us that we're worthless. And then we take that and run with it. It impacts every part of our lives, it impacts our confidence level, it impacts our self talk, and it impacts our choices. So that's a really good point that you made. Thank you.
 
Francis: And a lot of it was physical to you know, she coerce me into acts I didn't want to do. And it always was like, “Oh, are you not attracted to me? Because I'm not a guy?” And I was like, No. There were times where she would get physical. I remember, one time, I was tickling, or trying to cheer her up and just be light about something. And she actually put her knees on my legs and held my arms down and said, you know, you might be stronger than me and do sports and work out, but I could take you. And I was like, oh my God. We got in a fight one time. And I drove over, from an hour away at like, 4am to try to fix it and brought food and she just like, threw it. When you're younger, you're a lot less likely to stand up for yourself. And this was, again, my first relationship. So that sort so I mean, you know, it was like a control thing. And I think sometimes in these settings, you know, it's not that you don't know better. It's just sometimes when you feel like you're being seen for the first time, you're afraid you're going to lose that with your identity. And I also think  that had a huge factor in, in sticking by my toxic partner.
 
Marissa: So, you brought up a couple interesting points. But before I lose it out of my mind, I really liked how you just said, the fear of losing yourself is something that really held you to her. What do you mind expanding on that a little bit? Because I find that so interesting.
 
Francis: Yeah, sure. There was actually a meme floating around funny enough. And, you know, I didn't really come out or mentioned that part of myself till I was in my mid 20s. I'm older now. But so, what happened was, when I kind of came out and started letting that little part of myself live, I felt like because she was my partner, because she knew that it was hard for me. And sometimes she was supportive. You know, that's the thing with narcissists. Sometimes they're everything you need, and more other times, It's like Jekyll and Hyde, you know. So, I felt like those pieces of myself going back to that meme I saw where it's like, you kind of have to select and present these parts of yourself that fit society and fits everyone around you. And you have to hide parts of yourself. So being seen for the first time, it was like, this thing that I felt like in the past, I had to hide this thing I felt like didn't exist. You know, in college, I only did in males. I didn't even tell people, you know, my closest friends didn't even know because I just felt like, from when I was younger, the way my parents asked, oh, you must be gay because you can't keep a boyfriend. It was it was like the first relationship or I didn't have to think about that. And I was unforgivably myself. I was able to be who, you know, this half of me is without anyone saying anything in that relationship. Or when I was with males, you know, they kind of had a jist. It was like, oh, you’re going to leave me for a girl. And that's something I find with bisexuality is sometimes, you know, whatever gender you're with, will compare themselves to the other. So even though she would make rude comments and say things like, oh, you're going to leave me for a man. There was also this other side of it, where it was like, Oh, well, I know, it must be hard, because you only dated men. Things like that. And I could talk about these things. And it was like the other side. You know, it wasn't a man talking about what if you were a female type of thing? It was, yeah, I know, you've only been with men. But in this relationship, it's a little more emotionally invested. It's a little more mentally. You're more locked in with sometimes with males, you know, might feel more physical. Or you might go to your female friends for those talks. So, it’s more  emotional, you know. Whatever points where it's almost like you're dating your best friend, but, you know, you're both not straight. So, I would say, I felt very seen because of that, and parts of myself that I hid for, like 25-26 years were there. And that's, that's really what it was.
 
Marissa: I really appreciate that. I think that that's so important, especially for somebody who grows up, not in like a very supportive household for the LGBTQ community. To have that support, where you're seen and you're heard and you're acknowledged as you as 100% completely you but it still needs to be a healthy relationship.
 
Francis: One thing about me is, I was you know, my, my childhood could be rough at times, and I was always been having brothers. I was always pushed to be tough. I was always pushed to not cry because It wasn't practical, it wasn't rational to cry. Why are you whining? So, I think that for the first time, I felt vulnerable, and that it was okay to feel vulnerable. And unfortunately, sometimes, like you were saying. When, when you are allowing yourself to be seen when you are like, your true colors are there, it's awful, because sometimes the wrong person will see that and jump all over it. And say like, Okay, I got it in this person's vulnerable this, and, you know, going through what I went through earlier that year, or maybe it was a year before, I don't remember, but um, it turned into one of those things where it was like a perfect opportunity for this narcissistic person, abusive person to really jump in and take control. Like, it's like being a puppet. It felt that way.
 
Marissa: Right? I have a suspicion or a hunch, if you will, that abusers, they have like, these radar glasses, right? And they can see who's emotionally vulnerable. And those are their targets. They like to target people that that yeah, that show that emotional vulnerability.
 
Francis: Yep, exactly. And it first it was like, Oh, that's so beautiful. Like, you know, you're this artist person. You're so deep. And it was like a love and I always say the term “love bomb.” You know, they saw it, they see you for you, they make you feel like, the things that maybe they knew you were uncomfortable with in the past are now like this treasure they have. But then in the same breath, it's like, oh my gosh, like you can be so dramatic, and you feel too much. And then you're like, but that was the very thing I thought you liked. So, whenever we get in fights, and I will come over in the middle of the night or like, I would get those FaceTime messages, because, you know, she wanted to make sure no one was in the room with me. Oh, well turn your phone that way. Let me see. are they hiding behind the bed go over there? It was almost a feeling like it made me just free sometimes. If I was out with other friends, I would get these restricted calls in the middle of the night. And if I didn't answer, I called you. Why didn't you answer? And I'd be like, Well, I didn't know it was you? Of course, it was me. How do you not know? And I'm like, because it was restricted. There are these expectations too, where it's like, you don't know what part of yourself to be. So, what's so funny is at the same time, I'm saying how seen I felt this and that. But then it was like these mind tricks. They were so exhausting. When the relationship ended, it was about a year, little less maybe. I told some of my friends, I feel like I lost a year in my life. Because it was just so exhausting. And I was just tired.
 
Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing all that. I really appreciate it. So, I want to talk about your family a little bit. How does family support play a role in healing  from toxic relationships as an LGBTQ member?
 
Francis: You mean like from that relationship?
 
Marissa: And yeah, so yeah. So, you said that your family wasn't very supportive of you. And that probably impacted, Or did it impact you healed? Or who you communicated to?
 
Francis: Yes. And I know you're saying healed, but that's kind of the funny thing. So, while I was going through all this trauma, your family member who you I would say, you know, if you're lucky, a lot of people do use their family to heal them. And their family is who they go to when things are wrong. Where, because this relationship wasn't really approved, I felt like I couldn't talk about it. It was very awkward. It was very tense all the time. And, you know, maybe there was some sort of feeling that it was unhealthy. And it wasn't talked about, I don't know. Again, I was younger, by a lot of years. So, you know, it was like this grown person kind of was with me. And I knew that was concerning. But regardless, so whenever I was hurt, or I was sad, or I was scared that she was going to come to my house and like try to pick a fight with me, I couldn't really go to anybody. So, it was really just you're alone. You're by yourself. And you're not seen. You're not represented by anyone who knows you super well inside and out. So, a lot of healing was self-healing. I could say that a lot of it was from friends. And for anyone who is in a situation like this, even if it's not with a relationship, and feels alone there are even Facebook groups for these sorts of things. And I would say a lot of it came from outside sources. And I've made really amazing friends and allies along the way. And even strengthen some of my friendships who I talked to, for the first time about these things. Because, you know, when you're with a narcissistic person, and they want to be seen by everybody, they want all your close friends to know about them. It turned into like my close friends saw what was happening. And when I told them, they kind of took me under their wing and the fact I could show them my vulnerable side and how hurt I was. I really felt like that actually strengthened some relationships and when the relationship ended, I talked to my family a little bit and I kind of felt like I was back and things were starting to feel normal. And then of course, at the time, my now ex was saying, oh, they're just happy or not with a female, like, it has nothing to do with me. So, I would say as far as healing goes, reaching out to friends, things like that, really is what helped me. And it sucks, because you'll look back and think, Well, my family wasn't there. But sometimes you find your family along the way.
 
Marissa: I'm a true deep believer that your family isn't always your blood, especially in situations with homophobes or people who are Anti-LGBTQ. And then they have a child who identifies as LGBTQ. Unfortunately, that's not your real family. Your real family, to me is your Heart Family. It's the people who, like you said, who have your back and who you can be vulnerable around, and who you can tell your stories to, and will support you no matter what.
 
Francis: It's not so much even that my own family was anti-LGBTQ, but it was really more so that it was their child. And that's another thing, you know, you can have a very progressive, very supportive parent, if you look at today's world, Black Lives Matter, you know, it's there's a lot of attention to race and things like that. And luckily, that's something we all agree on in my intermediate family is, there has been this treatment and all sorts of things. Whereas with the gay pride, my parents, they always had gay friends, transgender friends, drag queen friends, never really anything that was negative until I existed in my full self. I can definitely say to it's, it's different when it's their own child, sometimes.
 
Marissa: That's an interesting point. I've actually, never really, I guess, I don't have children. But I've never noticed that or heard about that, that people who support the LGBTQ community can't fathom or can't support their child who identifies that so foreign to me.
 
Francis: Yeah, and that's, that's another thing too, sometimes, because it is complicated, you know. And some parents, they might go to therapy, they might be very open about figuring it out, and then some depending just on their makeup, they might not. And as time passed more of an open thing that, you know, I wouldn't say it's talked about a lot, it's still kind of awkward, but I can say that it's definitely gotten better. You know, if it comes up, it's not tense, it's not negative, it might not be positive. And that's another thing too, I think is you got to give people who might not accept it credit, because at the end of the day, your family, most of the time loves you. And for anyone out there listening, I can say that it's, it's scary. You're going to have to live with what happens like for me, I'm so horrified. But at the end of the day, especially now that I'm older, I can tell you, it's going to be they want you happy. And it is an interesting angle, because you it's hard to understand how someone can say they're supportive and say they're an ally, but then their own child or close family member, it does get complicated. And that's what I can say, you know, you can't say someone's a bad person, because it's, it's hard for them to, but at the same time, you do have to be true to you.
 
Marissa: Absolutely. That's such a good point. What do you think that the survivor and champion community, people who have been through this, what can we do to be more inclusive, educational and spread awareness to the LGBTQ community that this happens and that we're here for you? How can we make it not as a generalized?
 
Francis: Yeah, well, you know, like, and even telling what happened I can definitely say there are generalizations a narcissist is a narcissist and an abuser, abuser. What I mean, but it's, it really is not black and white. And I think to answer your question, a big part of it is definitely recognizing some of the challenges we face day to day we're not seeing we're often uncomfortable in our own skin, even if we are in a relationship that suits our attractions. And I think a lot of it is understanding the different facets that come along with that. Maybe it is your first time feeling seen. Maybe it's your first relationship of that sort. And you're going to ignore some red flags because you finally get a chance to feel yourself. And that's a huge thing. And I think another thing is talking about it. As an artist, as an educator, I'm in a lot of situations where like, it could be about race, religion. It could be about different types of music, it can be about different art styles, and they're things that I might not identify with, or really relate to. But what I've found is you have to be willing to educate yourself and understand you can comfortably talk about things without it always being negative. You know, it's okay to be ignorant. It's okay to ask questions. As long as you're not making it malicious, and if you are, it's important that the person answering the questions understands people won’t always know how to ask things. And sometimes we're so quick to be negative and think someone has a negative streak to what they're saying. A lot of people say, oh, who’s the guy / who's the girl? And sometimes you just got to say, listen, liberals are both women. Or, oh, she's dating a male now. So, she's straight, right? Where you have to see people for who they are, you have to understand, like I said, there's parts of you that will show when you're in different kinds of relationships. So, I would say my advice would be to listen, put yourself in their shoes. If it's uncomfortable, it's not bad. Sometimes learning is very uncomfortable. You know what I mean? Think of like a butterfly in a cocoon. It's dark, it's probably cold in there, but they come out beautiful. The world is theirs. So, I always say like, when it comes to learning and trying to assist people, do more listening, ask questions, and don't jump to conclusions. Right now, in the world, there are so many conversations that needed to happen that are happening now. There are so many people that are showing their support for each other. And I'm not lumping the two together, but I'm just going to say the way we can progress as a large group is by talking about uncomfortable things. And going there. And it's awkward. It might be a lot. But in the end, you know, it's kind of what they say, what side, do you want to be on of this? Do you want to be uninformed? Do you want to continue what's comfortable? Or do you want to grow? And I think even for me talking about this, you know. I've been very to myself about a lot of things, especially the abuse I faced, you know, I know people had it, way worse than me. But I kind of compartmentalize it, because, you know, you hear these horror stories of women being beat, raped all sorts of awful things. And to me, it was more emotional and it would get physical at times. But I think even expressing like, why it hurts so much. We'll teach people a lot. And everyone has a different story. So, I think even if you don't feel like it's worth sharing, just share it. Because people can relate to you. And I would say that's the biggest thing is just have these conversations And listen.
 
Marissa: That's one of the things that I really love to share is you never know who's listening. So, like, share your story, talk about what happened to you, because you could be helping somebody without knowing, and that we grow in discomfort, I really appreciate that you brought that up.
 
Francis: It's true, you know, and especially as an artist. You have to put yourself out there and sometimes there's parts of yourself you're so proud of and you want recognition for what you created, or what you presented to the world. And people you know, they don't bat an eye at it. And other times when you're not even trying your hardest, they see you and that's all it can take is just like one little thing. For me even just being able to talk about it. If one person listens to this, and it's like, oh, wow, she made a good point. Even if it's something dumb, I said, that's really what it's about is just don't be afraid to be there for people.
 
Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing all this amazing information. You're so insightful and so inspiring. And I appreciate you being here. Thank you so much, Francis, your insight was incredible. And I'm sure you're going to help a ton of people. Happy Pride and we'll chat next week.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
 
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Healing From Emotional Abuse: Racial Injustice and Trauma in the Black Community

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse.  The past few weeks in this country, have been devastating and heart wrenching for me, a person of privilege, so I can’t begin to imagine or understand what the African American community is feeling right now.  My heart is with you.  You have my support, my love and my voice. 
 
Today, I wanted to focus on this particular community and the issue of racial disparity in sexual assault.  I’ll try not to be overly political, although I feel strongly about my beliefs, especially as it relates to the Black Lives Matter movement.  I understand and recognize that everyone is entitled to their opinions and political alignments. 
 
Being sexually assaulted isn’t better or worse for anyone, but the risks, frequency, resources available, and reported cases are very different.  For African American women, sexual assault and violence are incredibly pervasive issues that routinely go unreported and under-addressed.
 
Hypersexualized depictions of women of color, have functioned since the early 1400s and have manifested themselves through our political and cultural landscapes for centuries. The myth that Black women were vessels for sexual desire were used to justify enslavement, rape, forced reproduction, and other forms of sexual coercion in the early onset of Western colonization.” (NOW.org)
 
“Stereotypes regarding African American women’s sexuality, including terms like (forgive me for saying this), ‘Black jezebel,’ ‘promiscuous,’ and ‘exotic,’ perpetuate the notion that African American women are willing participants in their own victimization. However, these myths only serve to demean, obstruct appropriate legal remedies, and minimize the seriousness of sexual violence perpetrated against African American women.” Women of Color Network,
 
Look at sexual predators like R. Kelly.  His undeniable, abusive and sexual misconduct with young black women was publicized with a documentary of the survivors crying and telling their stories, and yet, those women still don’t have justice.  Why?  Why is it that hundreds of young black minors throughout his career that were harmed, kidnapped, raped and forced into sexual slavery, came forward and spoke their truth and yet, nothing was done?  However, Harvey Weinstein, who primarily attacked young white women who were generally over the age of 18, was charged and convicted within a year and a half.  I’ve been following the R. Kelly story for a long time.  And the fact that he has not been brought to court yet shows the discrimination between the value of white assault victims and the value of black assault victims. 
 
 
I’ve been reading articles and citing research specifically on rape statistics for people of color, and the statistics are jarring.  Here are a few that really jumped out at me:
 
According to the National Center on Violence Against Women in the Black Community
 
For every black woman that reports rape, at least 15 black women do not report.
35% of black women experience some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetime. (CDC)
African American girls and women aged 12 years and older experienced higher rates of rape and sexual assault than white, asian and Latina girls and women.
40% of confirmed sex trafficking survivors in the US are black.
Many cultural considerations can hinder healing for black women survivors: the burdensome expectation of strong, black womanhood; the power of the black church; the desire to shield black men, and the lack of self-care resources.
 
From the Maryland Coalition Against Sexual Assault:
 
40-60% of black women have been subjected to coercive sexual contact by the age of 18. That means while they’re minors. Child abuse. Child molestation.
A study found that college students perceived a black victim of sexual assault to be less believable and more responsible for their assault than a white victim. 
That’s disgusting.  And that is a mindset change that needs to take effect immediately.  How can we change the perception by educated people that all victims, regardless of skin color, are never to be blamed for their abuse?  What ideas do you have?
 
The institute for women’s policy research reported that: More than 20 percent of black women are raped during their lifetimes — a higher share than among women overall.
 
How horrible is this?
 
And, I also want to point out that there was very limited research on male survivors of color.  I don’t know if that’s an interest issue, a funding issue, or a reporting issue,  but I find it bullshit that in 2020, we still paint males, especially African American males as only perpetrators.  They are more likely to be convicted of rape and abuse than white men, and their sentences are longer — even if they are innocent.  But to not even research male POC as victims outside of the LGBTQ community, is garbage. 
 
For 27 stories of male survivors, grab my book, Breaking Through the Silence: #Me(n)Too. It’s available on my website: www.marissafayecohen.com/the-books and Amazon.  In that book, there are several people of color that come forward and speak about their abuse.  So we know it happens.
 
Because of African-American’s unique history of racist and sexist victimization, the black community has an even harder time than others dealing with rape.  This prevents survivors from getting help and our community from addressing the issues effectively.
 
Some African American women’s decisions not to report their sexual assaults may be influenced by the criminal justice system’s history of treating European-American perpetrators and victims differently than perpetrators and victims of color. — From the Women’s Institute for Leadership Development for Human Rights
 
This isn't just a matter of excessive force.  It’s a matter of systematic, justified racial profiling, that allows an entire group of people to be ostracized and fearful of the people who pledge to protect and serve our nation.  I might be alone here, but that’s not okay with me.  If you take an oath to protect and serve, that means everyone.  We need to rally together, snuff out the “bad apple” cops as they are so politely titled, and reform the “brotherhood, boys club” mentality of good people being silenced have room to speak out and hold their brothers and sisters in uniform accountable for their bad actions.
 
I’m certainly no expert in the Black Lives Matter movement, or what the community feels would be the most effective and helpful way to engage and participate.
 
(SIDENOTE: if anyone has any  additional insight, please feel free to contact me.  I want to do whatever is needed to help),  but here are some ways that you can help female POC survivors of sexual assault.
 
There are policies to address sexual violence such as the Violence Against Women Act, but partisan politics are currently preventing its reauthorization. What we don’t have is a critical mass willing to enforce these policies. Center black women in the narrative, and act.  To enforce these policies, we can write letters and call our local & state representatives and encourage them to protect survivors.  Center black women in your advocacy. Contact your elected officials and share this data. Ask them what they are doing specifically to improve the sexual violence experienced by black women. Ask them to reauthorize the Violence Against Women Act.
 
Become an informed ally. Consider reading more books by black women scholars who are writing about the daily lived experiences of black women, including sexual violence. Sheena Howard, author of Nina’s Whispers who was on the show a few weeks ago, spoke about her experiences and wrote a fictional book about a POC in the LGBTQ+ community who was abused.
 
Support organizations that work on behalf of black women in your area. This may require you doing some research, talking with black women and allowing them to tell you what they need.
 
Here are a few organizations to look into:
Black Women’s Blueprint  https://www.blackwomensblueprint.org/
Rights 4 Girls   https://rights4girls.org/
Sister Love    https://www.sisterlove.org/
Incite National https://incite-national.org/
YWCA   https://www.ywca.org
A Long Walk Home     http://www.alongwalkhome.org/
Trans Women Of Color Collective    https://www.twocc.us/
 
This episode might deter people from reaching out to me for help with healing from emotional abuse, and that’s okay with me. Everyone deserves the feeling of safety, happiness and opportunity.  That way, if anyone chooses not to take the opportunities, which is something I’ve been hearing a lot of lately, it falls on them.  And the statistic of 70% of African Americans born into poverty stay in poverty, won’t be based on education, lack of opportunities and blatant racism. 
 
What does justice look like to you?
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
narcissist. narcissism. overcoming narcissism. toxic relationship. toxic people. ways to heal. how to heal from emotional abuse. living with a narcissist. good friends. healthy relationship. intimate partner violence. intimate partner relationship. healthy relationships. self love. confidence. self esteem. low self esteem. self esteem activities. confidence exercises. breaking through the silence. what does emotional abuse do to you. what does it mean to be narcissistic. what being with a narcissist does to you. what emotional abuse does to you. learning how to trust myself again. i trust myself. i only trust myself. in myself i trust. trust myself. Can you heal from abuse?. What do I do after leaving my narcissist. What does a healthy relationship look like. BLM. Black Lives Matter. Black Lives Matter movement. blm movement. sexual assault against African American women. Black assault victims. black assault survivors. black assault victims. male POC survivors. trauma in the black community. African american trauma. historical trauma african american. historical trauma slavery. trauma in the african american community.  african american community historical trauma. black trauma.