Healing From Emotional Abuse

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Kanye West Narcissist: Kanye Pete Davidson: Narcissistic Personality Disorder Symptoms

It’s no secret that Kanye West has mental health issues.  As a diagnosed bipolar with Narcissistic Personality Disorder or NPD, his mental health and episodes are periodically highlighted across news channels and tabloids alike. However, over the last few days, Kanye’s mental health issues have escalated to verbally and emotionally abusive tendencies, aimed towards Kim Kardashian, his estranged wife, and her new boyfriend, comedian and SNL writer and cast member Pete Davison.
Kanye has been threatening Pete with intimidation and calls for violence.  He has been harassing and threatening Kim and his children, and creating a very hostile and dangerous environment for all of them by encouraging his followers to scream at Pete Davidson if they see him in public. 
“IF ANYONE LOVES ME AND MY FAMILY IF YOU SEE SKETE IN REAL LIFE SCREAM AT THE [LOSER] AT THE TOP OF YOUR LUNGS AND SAY KIMYE FOREVER,”
A little bit of background.  And know, that I don’t generally follow pop culture as this is really not my interest.  I’m more concerned with Kanye’s abusive behavior, but I feel some background is necessary to fully understand how sick and toxic he is. Kim filed for divorce in February 2021 citing irreconcilable differences.  From then until the news broke that she and Pete were seeing each other, everything was fine.  After the Pete and Kim relationship was public, Kanye began trying to reconcile their marriage, to which Kim adamantly rejected, and filed to be declared legally single.  Kanye, who still a year later has not signed the divorce papers, refuses to accept the divorce, and has said he never saw the papers. He also bought the house across the street from Kim and his children to be able to keep an eye on them.
In January 2022, Kanye released a new track where he said, “God saved me from this crash, just so I can beat Pete Davidson’s ass.” That call to action sparked outrage from his followers and fans.  And began what would be a very dangerous situation for Pete.
But everything erupted last weekend when Kanye really unleashed.  First, he told his fans that Kid Cudi, a friend and long time collaborator, would not be featured on his new album because he was friends with quote  you know who.  He refers to him by the nickname Skete, which is used to demean Pete, and has publicly called him a dickhead, garbage and trash.  He has posted threats of physical violence on his instagram, stating, “UPON MY WIFE’S REQUEST PLEASE NOBODY DO ANYTHING PHYSICAL TO SKETE.” And then implying that he will “handle the situations” himself as the caption to a picture from the 2001 movie Baby Boy where one man is holding the other in a chokehold.
As you can probably imagine, it’s fear-inducing to have strangers screaming at you in public, and someone threatening to “handle the situation” by implying they’re going to physically assault you, but it’s also abusive. For Kanye to be encouraging this threatening behavior is comparable to abusing someone.  He is creating a very dangerous situation in which Pete could be harmed. 
Abuse is a pattern of threats or violence towards someone in order to control and manipulate them.  And that is exactly what this is.  And in the crossfires, he is intimidating and endangering his estranged wife and children. By living across the street to watch them, and sending threatening, harassing and abusive text messages to Kim, he is sending a message that he is in control of the situation, and won’t rest until he wins.
If that doesn’t make you physically uncomfortable, I don’t know what will. He has posted private text messages to social media between him and Kim and he and Pete trying to intimidate them.  He is love bombing Kim with flowers and grand romantic gestures after she has verbalized repeatedly that she is not interested in getting back together with him. This blatant disrespect of her wishes is also a form of abuse. Love bombing is a manipulative dating practice where a narcissist uses grand romantic gestures to gain the upper hand in a relationship and control their partner.  They shower the person with love and attention, compliments, gifts, flattery.  It looks romantic on the outside, but it’s really a way for the narcissist to manipulate the environment, to make them look like the perfect partner.  It’s also a way to lure the person away from other friends, family or potential romantic interests and control their patterns and their environment.  
Are we seeing a pattern here? 
So, let me just check off some boxes. 
If abuse is a pattern of threatening and violent behavior (physical, emotional, verbal, etc.) here is a laundry list of the abusive behaviors Kanye has exhibited in the last 5 days:
Inciting violence against Pete Davidson by encouraging fans to scream in his face. Intimidation and Manipulation.
Threatening to “handle the situation” with violence. Intimidation and psychological abuse.
Moving across the street from kim and his kids. Intimidation, and psychological abuse. Imagine feeling watched all the time and trying to live your life normally.  It doesn’t work.
Love bombing Kim.  
Name calling. Verbal Abuse
Referring to him as “Skete” instead of using his name is actually a form of verbal and sexual abuse. 
Harassing Kim and Pete via social media and text messages.
As survivors of abuse, you are justified in feeling triggered or uncomfortable hearing about and reading about his behavior. All of these behaviors are extremely toxic to Kim and Pete, and the well-fare of his children.  They are all feeling overwhelmed, intimidated and scared.  Although a lot of his fans are looking at what he’s doing as entertainment or justified, a lot of people are speaking out against his behaviors. Here are some tweets calling Kanye’s behavior out, and I couldn’t agree more. 
 
“What Kanye is doing to Kim is harassment and public humiliation. The worst part is that it's happening in front of the world and people are watching it like entertainment.”
“I think many survivors will agree this [is] far from funny or entertaining. This is the escalating point to something majorly violent, Please stop encouraging Kanye. To my survivors, please detox from this if needed. This is triggering shit.”
“None of this shit is funny, as someone who deals with this, I can say it's scary, and stressful, I have sympathy for her … It's a tough choice leaving, but I'm happy she did.”
“This is terrifying for a woman. He’s threatening violence and demanding her back. This is not okay, any woman who has been in this situation and feared for her life doesn’t think it’s funny, it’s triggering and terrifying.”
“When she directly addresses him about how he’s making her feel unsafe he decides to post a screenshot and ridicule her concerns but people want to keep defending him,”
What Kim is going through is textbook harassment. It’s terrifying how he’ll dress it up as wanting to be a present father but goes on to bombard her with gifts and affection.
The way I see it, if these are behaviors he is exhibiting publicly, think of all the toxic stuff he put her through privately.  Kanye is unhinged.  He is abusive, manipulative and sick.  His toxic behaviors need to be reprimanded because he is endangering the lives of 6 people publicly, and also is using his platform to control them. In my opinion, Kanye should be held responsible for his actions, medicated or not, because abuse is never okay.  And refusing to take care of his mental health is not an excuse.  His behavior landed him in this situation.  Kim filed for divorce because of his toxic behaviors, and by harassing her, her children, her boyfriend and threatening and inciting violence, he is only making the situation more dangerous and toxic.
If you are experiencing similar behaviors from a friend or partner, please reach out for help. You don’t deserve to live in an environment where you are constantly in fear for your life or your mental health.  You deserve to feel safe, secure, happy and peaceful in a relationship.
If you or someone you know is struggling, make a free coaching appointment with me at scheduleacallwithmarissa.com, and I’m happy to give you some resources to help you through your triggers. 
Thank you so much for joining me today, and I’ll talk to you next week! 
 
 
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Healing From Emotional Abuse: Good Advice To Give A Friend About Relationships: with Relationship Coach Amit Sodha

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Healing From Emotional Abuse: Signs of Narcissist Husband: with Lila

 
 
 
 
 
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Healing From Emotional Abuse: Summit Healing: Mental Healing: Part2

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Healing From Emotional Abuse: Summit Healing: Mental Healing: Part 1

Transcript Coming Soon

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Neuro Linguistic Programming: with Karrie Miller

Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse are so important to your mental health and to living a life of freedom, confidence and peace. Today, we're going to be talking to Carrie Miller about red flags, narcissistic relationships, NLP and a bunch of other really exciting other stuff. But before we start, I want to brainstorm ways that I can help ease your healing journey. Imagine you're standing on a cliff and on the other side of a deep canyon is the life that you dream of a partner who connects with you, supports you loves you empowers you makes you laugh makes you smile, a life filled with freedom and confidence and peace and unwavering happiness. I've been where you are now, standing on the edge of the cliff dreaming of that life. And I've built the bridge between where you are now. And that dream life that seems so far away. Let me walk you across that bridge and literally hand you the life of your dreams. It's possible. I've walked this path with 1000s of survivors who live a free, confident and peaceful life now, let's walk this path together. Don't waste any more time feeling worthless or exhausted. Schedule a free call with me today. At schedule a call with Marissa. It's exactly how it sounds. schedule a call with marissa.com.
Welcome back to healing from emotional abuse. Today I have on Carrie Miller. Carrie Miller is a licensed massage therapist and a trained NLP Neuro Linguistic Programming practitioner which is awesome. who specializes in helping women find themselves after narcissistic relationships. As a survivor herself. She was trapped in narcissistic toxic relationships for 23 years, one with her high school sweetheart and another long term relationship a little bit later. And she'll get more into that as we go. today. We're gonna chat about her story, how she overcame her abuse and started healing and building confidence and what she does to help other survivors overcome narcissism. Hi, Carrie, welcome on. I'm so excited to have you today. Hi, Marissa. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. Of course, we're so happy to have you. I love NLP. I think that it's so interesting. So I definitely want to dive into them later. But would you mind telling us your story? Sure.
I dated my high school sweetheart for a total of six years, we were married for almost four didn't start out as a as an abusive relationship. He was basically my knight in shining armor, you know, he treated me well, my doors, he did things that no other guy ever did. And just fell head over heels. The longer in the relationship we went, things happened red flags, I thought I was so in love that, you know, I can overlook those things. Once we got married, things really started to change. And I'm not even sure where you know, a timeframe but telling me that I couldn't do things because I couldn't I wouldn't make any money or, you know, all my friends sucked. You know, didn't like anybody I was with, or that I hung around with. So just start started distancing myself from those people because my husband didn't like them. That's what I was supposed to do. Right? Couldn't have any male friends because all they wanted to do was get my pants, you know, and just bashed me for all the male friends I had and my best friend, thank God, she was still my best friend. We went through a rough patch, but my best friend from first grade, I don't like her, you can hang around her. I gave up my best friend since first grade for him. It's my husband, he's telling me I can't hang around these people. Like I have to listen to him. Right? You know, and all of the things he was telling me and just the self confidence stuff, just you know, with the toilet, if you don't even realize it when it's happening. Couldn't keep a job for two years because of the things that were going on in the relationship. He had this way of always turning things around on onto me, it'd be my fault. I caught him going through some of my stuff, my personal stuff one day, so I was questioning him about it. Well, two minutes in all of a sudden is my whole were arguing about something else totally took the spotlight off of themselves. He wanted to be a state trooper. So he's really great at interrogation tactics and turning things around in used it on me all the time. He broke up with me several times, I always took him back. He had a really good way of hoovering me back in cold sucking it back in, he would go out with his friends, because, you know, by this time, I didn't have any friends, he would go out with his friends leave me home wouldn't come home, all night long. I'm walking out the door to go to work the next day. And he's coming home in thought that that was okay. wasn't financially helping with anything. I remember one instance where we moved into a new apartment and had to buy some furniture. So I went out and I bought a matching table, sofa back table to put in our entranceway. He gets so upset with me over that he went out and he bought a $7,000 motorcycle, and didn't tell me and thought that was okay. He had this look that he he always gave me that. I always knew that, oh, I'm in trouble now. We're young, and it's like, wait till we get home. And then I was in court. He just, he had this way of talking. That didn't sound like he was talking down to you. He had me convinced that my parents were the worst parents in the world. We talked about having kids, you know, and he's like, Well, just look at the way your mom raised you Why would you want to have kids? Would you raise it just like your mom did? And yeah, just it was unbelievable. The things that he would say and had me convinced of. So yeah, I started distancing myself from my parents thinking, you know, oh, my God, he's right. They're so bad that I'm the way I am. Because of them. You know, without me even realizing it isolated me from people and family. And the only people that we would ever go see would be his family. In You know, I just after the third time of taking him back in the staying out all night, and not telling me where he was at what he was doing and who he was with. And I had just had enough. I was tired of feeling like crap and being alone. And so I finally said, I'm done. He tried to Hoover me back in the akiem and crawl that is literally on his knees crying. Please don't leave me. I love you. And if you're trying to have these big crocodile tears down his face, and I'm just looked at him, and I'm like, No, I'm done. You had your chance. You don't want me, I'm not gonna let you continue to treat me this way. And then shortly after that started the second relationship. This is something that I normally don't do, I was I started dating somebody that I work with being lonely and just coming out of a bad relationship after six years and not getting any attention. And then all of a sudden, getting that great attention again, from somebody else ended up spending 16 years with this man moved in together after two years, not long after we started living together, he would say things just to get a reaction out of me, which was out of the ordinary for him, because it's not something he had did when we were just eating. And it wasn't all the time. And it just kind of progressively got worse from there. Once a while he'd call me name and get really so angry at me over over silly things and call me a name. And I'm like, Okay, it's just because he's angry, no big deal. Over the years, it progressively got worse, would make make me believe that the way I remembered things happening didn't actually happen. The gaslighting was unreal, making me think that I crazy for feeling the way I was feeling for thinking the way I was thinking, being told You're too sensitive. You know, just get over it, telling me oh, you're overweight you need, you need to start working out. So I start working out. And then he tells me oh, you can't work out in the house, you're gonna wear a hole in the rug. So I would go and work out in the barn on the cement floor. And then could only do that for a while because my back would hurt so bad and hardly walk. You know, just made my life so difficult, made sure that I was paying for things more than he was. So I was always financially living paycheck to paycheck. I was laid off at one point on unemployment. And our agreement was I would pay for the groceries every month. And you know, being on unemployment, you don't have a ton of money to go for a month, you know, and I would come home with this little bit of groceries and he's like, Well, just because you're on an unemployment doesn't mean I have to eat like a popper. So I would have to spend my entire unemployment check on food for him so he could eat like a king. Just he would I would clean the house and he'd come behind me and redo it all because I didn't do it good enough. The first time I
move my stuff that Tommy just things to make you really feel like you were you're crazy. I know I put this here Where did it go? You know and all of a sudden it's on the dresser in the bedroom. It's Seems so simplistic when he when I'm talking about it. And so well, that doesn't sound like abuse. But all of the things that he did that added up over the years in the progression of it, and the things he what he said, and the looks on his face when he said it in the last four years of our relationship, every time we got in a fight it was Fuck you, you know, you're you know, you stupid training. Are you stupid idiot, you're such a twat, you know, just the name calling out where's the swearing at? You got worse, and his wife, but he tells me you don't just get respect, you have to earn respect. So basically, he was telling me I have no respect for you. Even though you're my wife, the ghosting, he was really good at that. He goes to me once for eight days. In totally not look, sound a word nothing acted like I didn't even exist for eight days. You were in the same house in the same house. Yep. I never knew what I was going to come home to if he was going to be in a good mood or bad mood and, or anything in between. I walked on eggshells for eight to 10 years of our relationship, because you couldn't piss him off. If the house was clean. When he came home, he blew a gasket. And if it wasn't clean to his specifications, how did you get out? What did you do? The breaking point for me in that relationship was at this point he was he was sleeping on the couch every night. And I was sleeping in the bedroom. And he worked kind of a second shift swing shift. So when he got home at 1112 o'clock at night, he'd stay up until two three o'clock in the morning and then sleep until 1112 o'clock in the afternoon. And we had a dog. So he's in the living room sleeping on the couch and I'm in the bathroom. The dog is outside barking, he wakes up because of the dog barking, comes to the bathroom, punches open the door. It slams into the curio cabinet. I can't believe the glass didn't break in the look of rage. The complete look in his stance I was trapped in this bathroom with this man. So enraged, I thought he was gonna I was gonna hit me. I thought he was gonna beat me because the dog was barking. In the words that just came out of his mouth. I couldn't believe he was talking to me that way. With the look on his face in I don't know why he walked away. And he didn't come into the bathroom. He let me out. I grabbed the dog and I went to my parents house. In that today I asked my parents, if I divorced him, Can I move in? In a set? Absolutely. And I said I'm bringing the dog with me. Is that okay? And they said yes. That's negotiable. That was a non negotiable I got my dog has come on with me. I'm not leaving him here with this guy. They will never forget the look on his face that day. And I have always said I will never be one of those women that a guy will hit you and I wasn't going to stick around to find out if this or that was my self competence and my self esteem was zip. I don't know how I survived. Afterwards, maintaining a life. I felt like I was this big. I was the worst person on earth. No one's ever gonna love me. For me. I always have to change to make people you know, so that people will love me in when I change. That's not even good enough. Just this whole perfectionist persona that I was trying to put together was never good enough. During our relationship, I turned to alcohol to cope, because I never knew what I was going to come home to and it was easier to deal with it. If I was buzzed drinking 45 bottles of wine a week, I became a workaholic. Because I didn't want to come home. I'd leave for work as soon as early as possible. And I'd stay at work as late as possible because they didn't want to didn't want to be there with them. I was able to save up enough money to pay for a lawyer. It took about three months. And I told him I says I'm done. I'm walking away. In that conversation he called me the narcissist will never admit there are exactly I forgiven them. And I have I didn't do it for him. I did it for me.
I'm all about forgiveness being for the survivor and not for the abuser right we forgive so that we let go because holding on to it doesn't serve us in a positive way at all. And it doesn't impact our abuser or narcissist. It's literally just holding us back. So can you talk about maybe what you did that helped you forgive him and move forward or if there was any like there's a typical Give, that'd be amazing. Yeah. So even before I, I filed for divorce, I knew that there had to be something better that I can't live like this. So I started doing guided meditations. And one of the ones that I used to listen to every day was Doreen Virtue in cutting the cords and calling the angels down. And in going through this, it was like I don't like I don't 20 or 30 minute guided meditation to cut these chords. So I did that a lot. And that really helped. I did a lot of Louise Hays stuff from Hay House, you know, looking in the mirror and telling myself, I love you, you're perfect the way you are, you know, just a lot of that type of stuff. I think that took me a couple of years, just knowing that it was still eating at me. And in his eye, he was so much that I forgave him a lot. For my healing, I had to forgive myself more for letting myself get sucked into all of that. And that knowing that what was going on was unhealthy. I think that's more important for healing. Is the forgiving yourself versus the the forgiving the abuser. For my perspective anyway. I agree. 100%. Was there like a feeling that you had, when you forgive yourself? And forgive him? Did you have a, like, a divine feeling or anything when that happened? Yeah, I think there was more of a lighter feeling, which kind of progressed into the feeling happier and allowing myself to feel happy, not feeling guilty for feeling happy. And I think once I finally forgave myself, for allowing this to happen, and twice, you know, for for so long, I was finally able to get into a new relationship in a healthy relationship and see, the things that weren't supposed to happen versus the things that are supposed to happen. I think when we get stuck in that, that wallowing of that victim mentality, we're so stuck on all of the things that have happened. That's all we see, in order to get beyond seeing that, in experiencing that stuff is is the self forgiveness, and then the forgiving the abuser and saying, I am no longer going to allow that to control me or my life. I want to move on beyond there. I want to laugh and I want to smile. I deserve to be happy. I'm worthy of happiness, I'm gonna cry. And just realizing that I never even knew narcissism existed, until I was almost over with the second relationship. And that it's so prevalent in a world in the work that you do in the work that all these other people are doing to help these people help, you know, through the verbal and emotional abuse is so wonderful. I never knew that. That stuff existed until I got into the healing portion of it. And even six years after leaving that relationship, still feeling the unworthiness. I you know, I'm not even I don't deserve to be loved. I'm not perfect, I have to be perfect before anybody will love me. That still is cycling in the background in your unconscious mind. I think I found this lady who was my business mentor for massage therapy, massage therapy business. She's a NLP master trainer. And I went through her class and became certified in NLP. And the breakthrough that I have had with the techniques from NLP, to release all of those unconscious beliefs about myself that were installed from somebody else has just been phenomenal. That's
incredible. You don't even realize the self sabotaging habits you have. Because it's so habitual that even in my new relationship, you know, I'm like, I feel like this is going down that same road even though it's it's healthy and we're happy I feel like there's there's something wrong and why is that if I'm happy if we have a healthy relationship Why does Why does it feel like something's wrong get past that honeymoon phase in it starts to get it starts to get normal, you know, normal or mundane? Or you know, you get used you get into your rhythm and your your habits with each other whatever. You start putting on weight be a little lacks and you know, doing all that stuff and that's what was happening with me he was you know, turning back to wine and starting to put on the weight in eating food. You know, that was the other thing is I turned to food oh my god
and I'm just like If there's something going on here, and I can't figure it out, I, you know, I started working out twice a day for three months and didn't lose a single pound. And I'm like, What is going on here? This is not right. And that's not long after that I on NLP and had a breakthrough session with Rebecca and come to find out, you know my breakfast session was hurt with her was I can't lose weight no matter what I do I can't lose weight. Well it came down to that was just a symptom of I felt unworthy of love, I have to be perfect to be loved and filling it with food. That and I didn't even realize I was doing this I would eat every meal I would eat so much I would eat I almost puked in not even realizing I'm not full until I want I'm almost puking. Because I want to fill that void inside. I'm not loving, or being loved or not even loving myself with food, I had my breakthrough session with her. And within two months, I think it was two or three months, I can't remember, I lost 16 pounds. Wow, I say, you know, just by releasing that unconscious belief, I no longer need food to fill the void inside me. Even the realization of knowing that's what you're doing is huge. Bringing the unconscious to the conscious and bringing awareness to it. Everything we do all day long, 95% of our actions are habitual, they're unconsciously done. So unconsciously eating to the point of puking at every meal. And then realizing Wait a minute, this isn't how you're supposed to feel after you eat. It's just it's so crazy to me that changing that one little habit of negative self talk released so much stress and tension and emotion from your body that you were able to drop weight like that. Yeah, we're just our bodies are programmed to keep us safe. And to keep us surviving. And making that one little change can be so life changing. Absolutely. You know, I'm still working on the perfectionist part. I thought I had that pretty well lived. But I still feel like you know, there's some lingering fingers of that hanging on but it's not just even people who have been abused is everybody has these unconscious beliefs that are running the program, that you don't even realize they're sabotaging you. And they're not even your beliefs. They are things that have been installed in you by your parents, your grandparents, your teachers, your pastors, your preachers, the government, the police, you know, whoever have people of authority, that at the time may have been okay, if whatever feeling you attached to that, at the time, became an unconscious belief and is still running in the background. And it may no longer be serving you. But it's stopping you from living your life the way you want to live it. I talk to these ladies all the time, who are still in narcissistic relationships and are I don't know that I can leave, I want to go back, I missed them. And just even some of them. They're saying, I'm to the point I'm done, I want to take my life. And I'm just like, I feel for them so deeply that I just want to reach out and tell them no, you're just we all we have to do is change a couple beliefs in you it is so easy. And that's the thing with NLP is you don't have to relive all of the stuff that you've been through to change those beliefs. You don't have to sit in a counselor's office and rehash every incident and replay everything in your mind to get past it and heal from it. Absolutely, exactly. I told my mentors, this is something this is something I have been looking my entire life. I've been looking for this, I never never knew what it was. It blew my mind. There are some things you have to do when you do coaching with NLP, that can be really difficult. But the difficulty is there to help you change the unconscious belief and release it. We make it for you to do your unconscious belief more difficult, so that it's easier to release it. If that makes sense. Do you put in the work, you put in the effort so that like the reward is greater than the risk? If that makes sense?
Right? The behavior becomes so much more difficult with the tasking that we give you in NLP, that you no longer want to do that behavior. So it changes into something else and it's usually install a more positive better belief for you. And it's easier for you to do that belief. That's incorrect. So as long as you're willing to do that work and get that new positive belief, then there's no stopping you. You're basically just reprogramming your brain to stop believing the crap and the nasty things and the negative messages that we're being told by our abusers, and in our past by other people, you're just rewriting them, it stinks, because you have to try and remember all the horrible things that they've said to you. But once you remember them all, you can rewrite them. And I just think that's awesome. And you're you're healthier, and happier and live lighter. And that heaviness on your shoulders and in your chest just isn't there anymore. Totally free. Absolutely. I know, it's been a life changer for me. Even with my massage therapy, business, releasing all of that negative self talk and unconscious beliefs, my massage therapy business is taking off again. Oh, yeah, I've reached a new, a new height with that, when I first started, I've been on my private practice on my own for five years. And for the first two or three years, I have never been able to get booked out beyond a certain point, and then things start to wane off a little bit. It's that whole self sabotaging thing, you know, I get to a point where I believe I can't do any better than that. I did my breakthrough session I releasing a lot of that stuff. In one of one of the the limiting beliefs I had from the abuse is, if you can't see me, you can't humiliate me. So you can't abuse me. So unconsciously I was doing things so people couldn't see me. So I only had a certain amount of people who were coming to my business or could see my business. So my business plateaued at a certain way, releasing all of those negative beliefs in self sabotaging behaviors. Within two weeks, my business became booked out four weeks in advance. Hey, congrats. That's awesome. Thank you. It's like, how can that happen? How does that work? In you stop doing the things. It I don't even know what they were, but just stop doing the things that were holding me back from other people seeing who I am in my work in it seeing my business in a cassette, all it took was two weeks. And it just I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. This is all you know, I spent half my life in abusive relationships, in feeling shitty and crappy about myself. And in nobody loves me in for six years of my life thinking my parents were the worst people on Earth in they can't believe they raised me the way they did. And you know, oh my God, my sisters are so bad. And knowing that his belief of trying to whatever his belief was was trying, you know, his narcissistic behavior of isolating me to try to control me, and letting him do that. Installing those negative beliefs. In hindsight, you can heal from this, you can have whatever you want, you can be whoever you are, and whoever you want to be. It is okay. And if people who don't agree with you, or accept you for who you are and who you want to be, and it's okay to walk away from them. There are more people in the world to associate with it having your tribe.
Yes. It's true is everything you said is true. I agree. 100%. It's so hard to see it when you're in it, like you had said earlier. But when you're out of you're like, oh my god, I can't believe I let this person get away with all of that. I mean, when you were telling your story about your high school sweetheart, it really sent me back to my my first abusive relationship. A lot of the things were the same, you know, he started off great and thoughtful and charming, and then it just like snap changed. And then it was the demeaning and but when I was there, all I could think about was, I know him I know deep down and and he's charming and kind and considerate. But he's not he was showing me his true colors hiding in plain sight, and so was yours, you know, and so to all narcissists, first they hook us and then they show their true colors. But there are like, but like you said that there are people out there who will love you and accept you for who you are and encourage you not to sacrifice yourself for somebody else. So you're in a healthy relationship now, which is incredible, and you deserve it. So portugu Can you tell us a little bit about how it feels? Does it feel different? Yeah. Wow. To be able to have a conversation about Something that you disagree about it actually an actual adult conversation. There's no yelling, there's no swearing, there's no name calling, coming to a peaceful resolution in just a conversation. The first time that happened, I'm just like, wow, that's real, we can do that. It's a foreign concept, you know? Just absolutely having the ability to laugh at him in at myself and us in the amount of laughter in the house has been so great. I mean, I truly believe laughter is the best medicine for 23 years, there wasn't much laughter. And everything was so serious and everything was so. So dull. Seeing everything with a brighter view, I guess, a brighter vision, a brighter lens, enjoying life, again, experiencing life again, experiencing what it really feels like to be loved, and not have to change myself. To think I'm being loved. He accepts all my flaws. I accept his in. It's okay. Good. I'm so happy that you found that, you know, it's amazing. I'm sure it feels extra amazing. Having endured what you endured for so long. And finally having somebody to come home to that's just easy. It is in the support in the uplifting in when I chose to open my business, he was off for it. And he was right there looking for places in spaces with the painting walls and putting up trim. And you know, just being able to depend on him is huge. Because Exner number two, I couldn't ask him to do anything because he would tell me no, or would never follow through. And I always have to figure out how to get these things done on my own. And if I have to hire contractors to come in here and do all this stuff, I don't know that. He's like, Yeah, I can help you to be want me to pay, you know, do it because I love you. And I don't have to beg him to come to my family functions. Let's just go visit. Okay. Ex narc. Number one the day my sister got married, he showed up at the church and says I don't feel good. I'm going home and bailed out MST on my sister's wedding. It's just stuff like that we both have. We have plans for two weeks in the day. And I'm not going mean I go to visitation and then have to go and make excuses. Right? in not having to do that now. And having him be the one to say visit your mom. Yeah, all those things.
 

Healing From Emotional Abuse: EMDR Therapy: Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing: with Patrick Monette

[INTRO]
Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute, over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don't talk about it enough. Healing from emotional abuse isn't a band-aid situation, but it doesn't have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the world have been impacted by their narcissist, yours doesn't have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and founder of the Healing from Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F Cohen.
 
MARISSA: Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse are so important to your mental health and to living a life filled with freedom, confidence and peace. Today, we're going to be talking to Patrick Monet, who is a Trauma Informed Therapist, EMDR Therapist, and he's just hilarious. But before we start, I want to brainstorm ways that I can help ease your healing journey. Imagine you're standing on a cliff and on the other side of a deep, deep canyon is a life that you dream of. A partner who connects with you, supports you and empowers you, someone who makes you smile and laugh a life filled with freedom, confidence and peace. I have been where you are now, standing on the edge, dreaming of that life. And I've built the bridge between where you are now and that dream that seems so far away. Let me walk you across the bridge and literally hand you the life of your dreams. It's possible! I've walked this path with 1000s of survivors before who were in your place who now live a free, confident and peaceful life. Let's walk this path together. Don't waste any more time feeling lonely, worthless or exhausted. It's not worth it and you deserve to live a happy life. Schedule a call with me today at scheduleacallwithmarissa.com.
 
Welcome back to healing from emotional abuse. Today we have an awesome guest and we've been vibing for the past 10 minutes just chatting about Jewish guilt and Catholic guilt and being silly. So today we have Patrick Monette. He's a licensed mental health, addiction and certified trauma counselor, located in northern New York. He's also a certified EMDR Therapist and EMDRIA Approved Consultant and trained couples counselor. He's got a great resume. His work focuses on helping people learn healthy coping skills and resourcing as part of their trauma treatment. He has taught at local universities and maintains a private practice focusing on couples work and trauma informed treatment, as well as gender issues, anger management and co-occurring disorders. He's actively engaged in a local community drug court system as a mental health consultant and educator. Patrick is fluent in English and Spanish and offers treatment in both languages. Welcome on Patrick. Jeez your work is great.
 
PATRICK: Thanks Marissa, I sound so fancy. So it's so nice, thank you. I'm so honored to be on your show and to connect with you. And I can't think of a better way to end a crazy week and then hanging out together. So I'm super excited to be here.
 
MARISSA: Thank you, I feel the exact same way. So would you mind outside of your intro just like telling us a little bit about yourself, what you do, what you enjoy...
 
PATRICK: So you know, as I was saying, it's like I'm pretty low key. So I'm in private practice. I'm a mental health counselor. And I love working with a variety of people. In my private practice, especially with COVID my practice is completely online. So I've been able to modify all that where I do individual therapy, group therapy. And I also started offering online couple retreats, which has been really powerful, which I really love. So EMDR is a trauma informed treatment, so I also work with that. I assistant in trainings and I also do a lot of consultation for people who are learning EMDR, which I just love as well. So it's a really nice blend of different professional experiences.
 
MARISSA: That's awesome. So I have heard so many positive things about EMDR therapy, and how it's helped sexual assault and domestic violence survivors. Would you mind just giving us like the very basic about what EMDR is?
 
PATRICK: Sure. So EMDR stands for Eye Movement De-sensitization and Reprocessing Therapy, which is a mouthful. It was created in the 80s by Dr. Francine Shapiro. And the basic version that I can say is that it helps to identify targets or issues that you've been struggling with whether it's specific trauma or disturbing events or upsetting events, that gets stuck in certain parts of your brain. And with EMDR interventions, we're able to help the brain communicate more efficiently to be able to take those disturbing events and make them more adaptive, so they're not causing you so much pain and harm. So you can be, I don't want to say move on, but so they're not harming you and as painful as they once were.
 
MARISSA: Wow, that's really awesome. I'm still not entirely understanding of like the intricacies of that.
 
PATRICK: So basically what happens is, for example, when you go about your regular day, and then you go home, and you rest, and you go into your REM sleep, your deep sleep, your brain is able to process everything that's happened during that day. So when you get up in the next day, you're like, okay, I had breakfast, we did this, we chatted, and then there isn't any distress really. When something traumatic happens, the brain cannot process it, it's almost like too big. If you think of it like a conveyor belt, that memory, that event is too big to go down into the other parts. So it gets lodged. And then it gets stuck on that part of the brain, which then leads into a whole bunch of other issues of, you know, when we're talking about PTSD, flashbacks, nightmares, other anxiety, depression. That's why a lot of people when they can't, quote-unquote, move past a trauma, they either develop anxiety, depression, I see a lot of people who develop addiction related issues, because they're trying to eradicate the pain.
 
MARISSA: That makes a lot more sense. Honestly, thinking about it as like a survivor, I feel like the most common immediate response is if I just stopped thinking about it, it'll go away. I want this to go away...
 
PATRICK: If I wash it away. 
 
MARISSA: Time will make it go away, because that's not true. And so EMDR therapy breaks that down, and like allows your brain to process it. That is super cool.
 
PATRICK: So if you think of it, the trauma is like a giant iceberg in your brain, and then by doing what we call bilateral stimulation, which is a really natural intervention, it melts down that iceberg, and then it can go into the channel into your brain, where it doesn't make the event get erased, but you can move on with your life without being harpooned back to that pain anytime you might be potentially triggered or reminded of that event.
 
MARISSA: How long does it take generally, for somebody who has experienced severe domestic violence or sexual assault, to really be able to move forward using EMDR?
 
PATRICK: That's a great question. And it's really case by case because it depends on the severity of the attack, of the abuse, of the violence. Every person that I work with, when we say we're trauma informed care, that is, for me, it means we're taking this slow. Not because I want you to be in pain longer, but because safety has been bastardized in your life. We want to look at security, we want to do the safe and sound in the way of let's figure out what you are able to address, and what you actually need to work on. Because everyone needs different things. Sometimes it's guilt, anger, shame, it might be different aspects of their lives that are affected by the trauma. I just take my time to really see, build that strong therapeutic relationship with clients to see what is it that you actually want to work on? And let me see what I can do to support you on that. Now, when you get into the EMDR therapy itself, it's really a case by case scenario of everyone's individual brain processing. Of how how much EMDR they might need, how much time they need to process it. In addition to what I see is, are they still in the relationship? Are they still in a situation? Which is very different compared to if they're out, that freedom, it's all of those, if their basic needs are being met. So I kind of look at all these different components when I'm meeting with someone.
 
MARISSA: That makes a lot of sense. So in my mind, I saw it as a resource for after people leave, but people who are still in abusive relationships, they come and work with you too? 
 
PATRICK: Yes, yes. 
 
MARISSA: Do you know like, how it affects them? Or if doing EMDR has encouraged people to leave faster? Have you gotten that kind of response? 
 
PATRICK: See, I think a lot of times, and I'm sure you've seen this with your own experiences and other people is there's that expectation sometimes that people when they're in those situations of just leave, turn it off. If it was that easy, it would be. But there's that deep emotional and psychological component going on when you're in those abusive and destructive situations. A lot of times what I've noticed with my people is when we're doing EMDR it's kind of like they're going through a snowstorm and we're giving them some additional support to get clarity. So when you're doing some other trauma informed care treatments, you have to talk about the trauma and you desensitize, you decrease the trauma. But with EMDR, you don't actually have to talk about it as much. You identify what the target is, what the problem is, and it's more about this beautiful journey of what do you believe about yourself? So, for example, when someone stays in that relationship, I'd say, so when you think of this abusive relationship, what is the negative belief that you're telling yourself? And being able to look at the negative beliefs, and help the clients just sort of build a little bit more resilience and clarity into what's going on. Because when you're in those situations, there's usually such a high level of psychological damage going on, that you don't even know who you are sometimes.
 
MARISSA: That is so true. And that's something that I also identify in my coaching is that you lose yourself in abuse, because they program you to feel differently than you might actually feel and take away the aspects of your life and of your identity, that might be very personal to you. Wow, that's really, really cool. I'm so happy that that exists, and that that's getting more clout, and more attention now. 
 
So let's get off the EMDR topic, although I could talk about this with you all day, because I think it's awesome. We were having a separate conversation before we started about guilt, and how guilt in different religions plays a role in just how people interact. But specifically what I want to talk about, because you come from a Catholic upbringing, is how Christianity and how Catholicism view abuse, and the guilt of staying in an abusive situation.
 
PATRICK: It's so hard because most of us grew up to believe, you know, if we grew up in a belief system, that that's supposed to be our protection. That that's where we're supposed to be safe. But the more [audio break 12:02] there is, and a lot of these situations, and how that division of power is used. We're in a religious system.
 
MARISSA: That makes sense. And I can speak from Judaism. I'm not Hasidic or religious really, but in very Hasidic communities, which Catholicism in my opinion is like a more religious aspect of Christianity, and I could be very incorrect, so please correct me if I'm wrong. But in Hasidic communities, they don't go outside of their community at all. Everybody takes their questions and their problems to the Rabbi, to the head Rabbi, he's the person in charge. So in domestic violence in Hasidic communities, the Rabbi is the one who gets to say, well, what are you doing to anger your husband? Or what are you doing wrong? You, the wife, generally, are the peacemaker in the household and so you need to be the one fixing the problem.
 
PATRICK: I don't want to generalize, I can only speak to my experience in certain things. I grew up where about sinning and when you make that vow in the Catholic Church, it's forever and all these different things. But I've also seen where there's that abusive thing of, you're going to disappoint God by ending this marriage or by leaving it, or look at the damage, it's a lot of victim blaming. 
 
MARISSA: That's a good way to put it. 
 
PATRICK: And that shame, I mean, not even talking about guilt, let's latch on to that shame of you're letting God down. You put that on top of someone who's being abused in every aspect of abuse that there is, and it's such a deadly cocktail. I've also seen people, amazing advocates in the Catholic Church. It's hard because during the last few years if we're going to keep it real, the coming to light about all the abuse in the Catholic Church towards children. So it's really like a mushroom of different issues right?
 
MARISSA: Yeah. I mean, I definitely see your point. I mean, it's a person by person conversation. So there are some rabbis who'd be like, get out. And there are some rabbits would be like, no, you stay, this is your problem. And I'm sure it's the same thing with priests and pastors and everybody, it's a very person by person basis.
 
PATRICK: What I have seen in some experiences with clients is sometimes they get into those situations where they are blamed. You're not praying hard enough, you're not doing this. And I'm a person of faith, I love God. It's a huge part of my -- I don't identify as Catholic. I'm more spiritual, but there is a place for prayer and there's a place for action and therapy. 
 
MARISSA: Yes.
 
PATRICK: And I think they can dance really well, too. I mean, in my life they have, but in other people, it's hard because there's such abuse in the spiritual world and or in the religious world. I always go to is like, if this doesn't feel right, it's probably not right for me.
 
MARISSA: That's a good way to look at it. And I think that a lot of religion is kind of just how you consume it and how you process it. Because there's different sects of every religion that read the same texts, but just observe differently. And so when it comes to trauma, and it comes to domestic violence, because it's a private issue, people don't really know how to handle it. So a lot of people turn to religion. I guess my biggest concern with that is because the text is susceptible to being --  like you can read it and understand it a different way.
 
PATRICK: The interpretation, and it's usually not in favor of women or anyone that's not  a like white male. In my experiences, I could be wrong of the view, but it's...
 
MARISSA: I tend to agree with that.
 
PATRICK: It's like come on, we got to keep it real. Things have to evolve. And one of the things is, whether it's religion or not, is that shame and the secrecy that is so damaging to people who are experiencing violence and abuse.
 
MARISSA: And then if you if you interpret the text in a way that in order for you to leave, your partner needs to have cheated on you or asked for a divorce. That's so limiting, because in my opinion, and I could be wrong, but I don't think God or Jesus or Allah, like anyone, I don't think that being wants you to be unhappy or in a dangerous position. And so by looking at the text and saying point blank, no, you can't leave until that person asks to leave or until that person leaves, that's so dangerous.
 
PATRICK: Right. And it also takes away freewill choice, which that's part of the human experience.
 
MARISSA: Right. But I think that the religion, like when people interpret it that way, it consumes their whole life and they're not able to act on freewill...
 
PATRICK: Agreed, that they're supposed to sacrifice for the greater good in a way. Even though that version of the greater good may not be accurate or really true or loving.
 
MARISSA: Right, absolutely. So let's go back to your professional experience, you don't just do EMDR, you also do Addiction Therapy and Trauma Informed Therapies and stuff like that. So how often do you see like an overlap in other areas that probably stemmed from abuse or sexual assault, especially with addiction?
 
PATRICK: I would say, if I even like made it a little bit broader, if we just put in terms of trauma in general, I would say, probably like 98% of people that come in my door have some aspect of trauma.
 
MARISSA: Wow!
 
PATRICK: I think when we classify trauma it used to be 9-11, it used to be Vets. It used to be very specific populations. But the word trauma actually means a wound. So if you changed trauma for wound, how many people do we know that are wounded? 
 
MARISSA: Everybody. Everybody has experiences that shaped them.
 
PATRICK: From COVID, to sexual assaults, a physical assault, to addiction to a million different things, to losing a job, to losing a child, to losing a relationship. And I think when you're doing trauma informed care, you have that broad view of this person has strength, they have resilience, because they've survived but there's some injuries, there's some wounds there, and maybe I can help them find ways to mend it and to move forward in a healthier way.
 
MARISSA: If there was one thing like one routine change, or one small activity that people could add to their daily routines that might alleviate some of that, do you have any like recommendations? Or do you have like any ideas of maybe something that you've done with other people?
 
PATRICK: This is going to sound funny, but I have clients ask them what they're feeling. Because how many of us are disconnected from our emotions? And if I don't have a relationship with my emotions, I'm probably not going to get very far. 
 
MARISSA: That's very fair. 
 
PATRICK: So it's just a check in throughout the day of how am I feeling right now? How am I feeling? And not having to necessarily do anything, but to develop our awareness. Because when we don't deal with our emotions, when we don't have a healthy relationship with them, it's sort of like building a house on top of swamp land, it's probably not going to go very well.
 
MARISSA: That makes so much sense. Just like becoming more self aware allows us to recognize and work through something that we need to process in that moment.
 
PATRICK: Right. And it sounds simple, like oh, that's not really profound. But if we put it through the lens of someone who's gone through something traumatic, a lot of times people, all of their energy is to avoid all the emotions. Because it's not safe. It's painful. It's scary. Like you said, you just want to forget it. So you want me to talk about my feelings, that could be opening up a barrel of monkeys, that's really dangerous.
 
MARISSA: I think that that's something that's a really important thing to do is be able to check in. But what do you recommend starting doing that while in a therapy session, or with somebody who's licensed who might be able to help somebody through it? Because I know that right after my abuse, if I was trying to do a check-in, I probably would have like, launched myself off a bridge and I'm not saying that to be funny. Like I would have tried to attempt suicide.
 
PATRICK: Definitely! And when I'm working with someone, especially with EMDR there are very specific techniques that I teach clients, almost every client, of how to help improve their emotional regulations that -- going back to the brain function, that helped them sort of develop ways to ride those waves of emotion instead of being drowned by them. So definitely reaching out for help, someone that can be there for you that's objective that can give you specific skills to improve your emotional functioning.
 
[OUTRO]
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.marisafayecohen.com/private-coaching. That's www.marissafayecohen.com/private-coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made for you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone and hurt and live a free, confident and peaceful life. Don't forget to subscribe to the Healing from Emotional Abuse Podcast and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen and Instagram at Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We'd love to see you there.

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Love After Abuse: with Lorrine Patterson

[INTRO]
Can you heal from abuse? What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute, over 28,800 people every day. And the sad fact is, we still don't talk about it enough. Healing from emotional abuse isn't a band aid situation, but it doesn't have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the world have been impacted by their narcissist. Yours doesn't have to. To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and founder of the healing from emotional abuse philosophy, Marissa F Cohen.
 
MARISSA: Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse are so important to your mental health and to living a life of freedom, confidence and peace. Today, we're talking to our special guest Lorraine Patterson about self love and healing after abuse. But before we start, I want to brainstorm ways that I can help ease your healing. Imagine you're standing on a cliff. And on the other side of a deep, deep canyon is the life that you dream of. A partner who connects with you, supports you and empowers you, a partner that makes you laugh and smile, a life filled with freedom and confidence and peace. I've been where you are now, standing on the edge, dreaming of that life. And I've built the bridge between where you are now and that dream that seems so far away. Let me walk you across that bridge and literally hand you the life of your dreams. It's possible! I've walked this path with thousands of survivors who live a free, confident and peaceful life. Let's walk this path together. Don't waste any more time feeling lonely, worthless or exhausted. Schedule a call with me today at scheduleacallwithmarissa.com. 
 
Okay, welcome back to Healing from Emotional Abuse. My name is Marissa F. Cohen and I am joined today with Lorraine Patterson. Lorraine is an incredible survivor who's here today to share her story with us about surviving, her book - Freeing your Heart for Love, and a little bit of insight about how she healed and overcame her abuse. So Lorraine, welcome! Today I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you.
 
LORRAINE: Yes, thank you Marissa for having me and allowing me to share my story.
 
MARISSA: Of course. So introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about yourself.
 
LORRAINE: Yes, so my name is Lorraine, and I am a mother of four boys. Three bonus children and three grandkids, so I'm a grandma. I have a very blessed life. I am married to the love of my life, but it hasn't always been a blessed life. As Marissa explained in my bio, I was at a really young age, I don't remember a lot because I went through a lot of abuse as a child. And so both my parents were both physically and mentally abusive. And so I grew up in that environment of not learning how to love or not even really knowing what love is. And so at the age of 16, I had my first suicidal thoughts. And I didn't know where all of that was coming from. I just knew that I was really sad and that I didn't want to be alive anymore. So I didn't know what to do with those feelings. But what I ended up doing was running away. 
 
So I ran away with a boyfriend of mine who ended up being my husband, he was my first husband. And I married him at the age of 17. My mom's husband at the time convinced him to marry me when I came back home. And so I ended up marrying him and leaving that chaotic household, thinking that I was going to go into my happily ever after. But what I ended up doing was just going into nine more years of mental and physical abuse. So I married him at the age of 17. I was with him for nine years. And he was, let's say mentally abusive, meaning he would always put me down. We had two beautiful boys. But he was cheating on me all the time. He was an alcoholic. He was arrested for dealing drugs, so he went to prison for three years. So I was left to take care of two small children on my own while running a family business. So that was really hard. I was so young, I was still trying to figure out my life. I was in my 20s, so I was trying to figure out my career. I somehow managed all of that while he was in prison. But it also gave me the strength to finally leave him. So when he went to prison, I felt like I was released from prison because I could never leave him. He had this control over me. And because I married him at such a young age I didn't really have the strength to speak up for anything in that marriage at all. 
 
And so I finally got away, we divorced but then I still was attracting controlling men. Controlling, unavailable men. I was putting myself in situations that were unloving and disrespectful to myself, my body, my soul, because I didn't know what love was. I was seeking for love outside of myself. And so I was most looking for it in men. So my whole story that I write about in my book is just about going through all of these bad relationships because I met and married a second guy, which wasn't a bad guy. 
 
But because I was so broken inside, I didn't realize how to be in that relationship. And he also still had that control over me, because my dad was a controlling man. And I didn't realize that until later on that I was attracting how I felt inside, I was attracting those people in my life. And so I married him for about six years, we had two boys. And so I did have two beautiful boys out of that marriage. But that marriage didn't last. And when I divorced him is when I was in my 30s. And that's when I almost took my life. So that suicidal depression never went away from the age of 16, to my 30s. And so I almost took my life, but then I stopped myself, I heard something that night, and I write about it in my book about the experience, because when you're in that dark place of you don't want to be here anymore you just feel different things, you hear different things. And I heard something that night, and I ended up not taking my life and the next day, I got therapy.
 
And the therapist told me if you take your life, you will break your children. And I didn't want to repeat that cycle of having broken children because I was a broken child. So I just kind of started working towards removing that feeling of being so depressed that my life wasn't worthy enough. And I discovered spirituality, I started practicing positive affirmations. And I started working on myself, but I still wasn't there with the love part. So it still took me probably another gosh, until I turned 42 is when I really woke up. 
 
And that was in my third marriage, which is what I call my rock bottom relationship. Because that marriage actually broke me, that broke my soul. He had this illicit fantasy where he wanted me to make love in front of him with other men. And I didn't know he had this fantasy until after we married. And so I thought this was going to be a one time thing. But he wanted it all the time, it became this regular thing. And I felt like I needed to stay and do this for him. Because if I didn't do this for him, he would leave me and I would have three failed marriages. So essentially that thought in my head essentially broke me and after six months of being married to him, I couldn't do it anymore. And I woke up one day, well it was the last time we had this encounter. And I just remember looking at myself in the mirror, and it was just a hollow person. I was seeing myself going back to that depressive state that I was in that I said I was never going to go back to. And I started slipping back to that dark place. So finally I just woke up and said, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want this for my life. I deserve a man who loves and respects me. And I just divorced him and I started working on myself. And it still took me a couple more years to learn that lesson that I needed to learn in life, to love myself and discover self love. 
 
And so that's when I transformed my life, was at the age of 45. And I met my husband who I'm married to now very happily married since 2019. But I couldn't have gotten to where I'm at today if I didn't discover that self love for myself. My heart basically had to break wide open to allow the love that I deserved in. And so I realized that, but it took me 29 years to get to that point in my life.
 
MARISSA: Thank you for sharing your story. And you brought up so many fascinating points. I just want to talk about all of them. So first and foremost, I don't think people realize, unless you experience it how much your childhood and the relationships that you grow up around, influence and impact the way that you perceive love. So, like you had said, you grew up feeling like emotional and mental abuse were normal. And so that shaped a lot of your relationships. Can you expand on that just a little?
 
LORRAINE: Yeah. So my parents, I don't remember them hugging me. I don't remember sitting on their lap, when kids are playing I don't remember going to the park. I don't remember a lot of the loving things that my parents used to do with me as a child. And that's all I knew. I thought chaotic life and abuse was normal, because that's what I grew up in. So when I was getting involved with these unavailable men, I kept telling myself, well, this is my life. This is who I am. And that was like my thoughts all the time. So each and every time I would meet somebody it would basically just be for sex. I ended up being just somebody that was like a sexual object. And until I realized my self worth and my value, I didn't get out of that cycle. It was one after the other, after the other, after the other. And every guy, I would just cry because I'm like, why is this happening to me, but it was what I was attracting because of how I felt about myself. I hated myself, I hated my body. I said negative things to myself all the time; that I was a horrible mother, I'm a loser, I'm an idiot. All of those thoughts were in my head. Now I don't say those at all. It's always I am loved, I am enough, I am worthy. And it's all these I can do it. It's more positive statements, instead of those negative statements that we tend to put in our head that really, really messes you up. I mean, it doesn't do you any good for your life at all?
 
MARISSA: Absolutely, I find that we tend to, just as survivors, we tend to mirror and repeat the negative things that people say to us. And then we do the most damage. Other people can say horrible things to us, and we can kind of let it bounce off. We can build that resilience, but when we're the ones saying it to ourselves, we're really deeply hurting ourselves. I mean, even down to our biology, we're really messing up our brains. So would you mind and I don't know if you're comfortable with this, would you mind sharing some positive affirmations that you use to help build yourself up? Was there anything specific?
 
LORRAINE: Yeah, so I follow Hay House. Louise Hay, that was the first person that I found with positive affirmations. And she's with Hay House, she discovered Hay House, she passed away. But I still get her calendar, which is sitting on my counter every day, it's just a calendar you can tear off. So a lot of her stuff is self love affirmations. And so I started practicing self love affirmations where I put it in my bathroom mirror so that when I go brush my teeth, I'm reading it every single day or I get like deck of cards through Gabby Bernstein who I adore. And I love Hay House. I say that Hay House saved my life, because discovering Hay House turned my life around for the good. And so you know, there's different things I read. I read unconditional love for myself type affirmations, the universe, I trust in the universe and the process. And so a lot of my affirmations are, the universe has my back, I trust the universe, I trust the process. And it's just a lot of  adding I am in front of statements for me. And I look it up on Pinterest. Pinterest is a huge resource that I love looking at positive affirmations and it's all over my house. Live, love, laugh is something that I repeat constantly. I even have it tattooed on my arm.
 
MARISSA: Oh I love that.
 
LORRAINE: I grew up in an abusive home. And so I am the kind of person that needs to remind myself, even today, I'm going to be 49 this year, 16 years old is when I was depressed. But even today, I still have to remind myself that I am worthy. And it's just something that I think is never going to go away. It's just something that I have to work on every single day of my life. Because I can be that person that goes back to that sad place, I just choose not to. 
 
MARISSA: Good. And I'm glad that you keep making that choice but like you said, it's work every single day. And I also have experienced abuse. And I am also constantly reminding myself. Something that I tell people all the time is to make a list of three things that you love about yourself. Even if you can't think of anything, ask somebody that you respect and love, three things about you that they love, put it on your mirror and repeat them to yourself three times a day every day. And I still do that, I've been doing that I don't even know, probably for 11 years, and it has never let me down. But what it does do is it allows me to catch my negative thoughts and say, nope, that's wrong. I'm not going to say that again. It makes you more self aware I think.
 
LORRAINE: Yeah, my first husband, he did a lot of damage to me. And he used to tell me that my nose was big. So for the longest time, I hated looking at myself in the mirror because I'm like, God is my nose big? I would say that to myself. And now I'm just like, I'm beautiful with my big nose, or without a big nose. I don't care.
 
MARISSA: Absolutely. And it's not funny, but it's funny that you say that, because I'm of Jewish heritage and we have that stereotype of having really big noses. And so growing up I also had a really big nose and that was like a bullying point for people. So I had this very similar issue. And what I did was I went in knowing that my nose was a part of my heritage and it was part of my family. And so now I can look at myself in the mirror and love myself in photos. And I'm glad that you also found a way to be able to love yourself and not that you don't deserve it. But sometimes words really stick.
 
LORRAINE: Oh yeah, it stuck with me for a really long time. I mean, all the way through. That was in my 20s when I was with him, but all the way through the 30s. But now I'm totally confident and comfortable in my own skin.
 
MARISSA: Good because you're beautiful. So tell us about your book Freeing your Heart for Love.
 
LORRAINE: Yes, my book. So I had talked about writing this book for over a decade with my friends. My friends would always share my story, like what I just shared a part of it with you, and they would always tell me, oh my gosh, you should write a book about your life. Consistently! Or like people would live through my life, because somehow it was so exciting. But they didn't know how sad I was. So I talked about it, I joked about it. And then in April of last year, I joined a virtual writing workshop with this healthcare company that I was working for. And it was just for fun, literally, like just to do writing prompts. But when I started doing the writing prompts, I started crying, because I was writing a lot about my past. And I don't know where this emotion was coming from. And something just told me, I think it's time to write your book. I just started typing in April of last year. And then I just dove into learning how to write a book. So I knew that I wanted to write a book, I knew my passion for writing, it was to inspire others and to help other people who are going through similar struggles. I wanted to share my experiences that way in a book. That's all I knew. And so I dove into like a 7-day writing challenge, I dove into a writer's community, I joined a book program, I got a book coach. And I just started investing my life into this book. And so I finished the manuscript in December of last year, I'm now done with everything completely, and I'm ready to print and I'm releasing in April of this year.
 
MARISSA: Congratulations! That's an amazing story and an amazing journey.
 
LORRAINE: Thank you and this is a huge accomplishment for me, because I never read books. I'm not a book reader. So to write a book was like, Oh my God, I wrote a book! I even cried tears of joy, because I can't believe I wrote a book. But it's already reaching so many people. I've been on a lot of podcasts, people are reaching out to me on Instagram that don't know me from all over the world - Iceland, New York, everywhere, London, and they're telling me how much I'm inspiring them. So I know that this book is going to take off because I was ashamed. I was like, I don't know if I want to put this out, this is like my most vulnerable experiences, especially about my third marriage. Nobody knew about this fetish that my husband had, I wasn't going to share it with anyone. But I feel like if there's a woman out there, or even a man, I think it happens to men, that if you don't want this for your life, you don't have to stay. There's a man out there or a woman that loves you unconditionally. You don't need to do this to your body to be loved.
 
MARISSA: That's an amazing revelation. And I think that it really impacts way more people than we know of, because like you, they're embarrassed to talk about it or felt uncomfortable talking about it. But this kind of thing, and these fetishes, and these preferences that people have that are closeted, can make you feel really bad about yourself, or make you feel uncomfortable or uneasy, and then you're trapped. So I'm really glad that you were able to open up about it and maybe not feel comfortable with it having happened, but feel comfortable sharing that part of your story and your life. And I think that's what makes you so relatable, and so easy to talk to, because you're just so open and confident and willing to share. So thank you so much.
 
LORRAINE: Just to add on to that is that if people are in that type of relationship, and they're okay with it, then that's okay. But I feel like I wasn't okay with it but I stayed because I was so scared that this guy was going to leave me. And I thought he was the end all, this was it. I wasn't going to have anybody else. I had four kids, I'd been through two marriages, nobody's going to want me. But I got all that out of my head. And I said, you know what, I deserve to be loved completely and respected and valued, because he didn't value me. He didn't respect our marriage. And that's not okay, if that's not what you want for your life.
 
MARISSA: Absolutely. I was not trying to kink shame. But there's definitely a societal standard, that you get married and that's it. Even now, it's still oh, you got divorced, ooh. But getting divorced twice, there's such a stigma with that. There's nothing wrong with that. We are human and we grow and we change, and so getting divorced and remarried and dating around like, none of that is a problem. We just need to change the way that we perceive it and we need to change the way that society responds to it.
 
LORRAINE: Yeah, because I mean, I was ashamed to tell people I was married three times. It's like, whoa!. Now you're married four times. I'm like, but I don't care because my husband truly is the man that I'm supposed to be with. I truly truly know that now.
 
MARISSA: You mind if I ask how you know that? Like what is it about your relationship that makes you know that he's right?
 
LORRAINE: There's so much so. So a psychic told me I was going to meet him, it's all in my book. She told me, I was going to meet them by the end of 2017, or the beginning of 2018, or I was never going to meet him. And I didn't know how I was going to meet him. But I met him in October of 2017. And he is exactly the person that she said he was going to be. She said, he was going to love you unconditionally. He's going to love your kids like they're his own. I've been with many guys, even past marriages that I was in and nobody loved my kids as much as he does. And so that I knew was the number one reason because the reason why a lot of these relationships didn't work in the past is because they didn't love my children. And if you don't love my children, then you don't love me. My children come with me. I'm not going to give up my kids. And there were thoughts in the back of my head sometimes, which is crazy to even think that that I'm going to choose a guy over my kids, that's not going to work. So that was the number one reason. Number two is that he just takes care of me. I had a surgery that happened before we got married and he stayed by my side the whole time, there hasn't been any man in my life that has supported me that much, or cared for me that much. As well as my book. There's things in my book that he didn't know. And so I had to be open and honest with him and tell him, listen, there's things in my book, I need your support before I start writing this book, otherwise, the book is not going to come out. And he said, no, I support you 100%. And he didn't judge me with these past experiences. And he accepts me for who I am. And so that's how I truly know that he is the man that I'm supposed to be with. Because there hasn't been any other man in my life that has treated me the way he treats me.
 
MARISSA: That's incredible. Take notes guys. 
 
LORRAINE: True love does exist. I keep saying that. 
 
MARISSA: It does. It really does. And don't lower your standards, right? Aim for exactly what you want, because anything less isn't worth it.
 
LORRAINE: Yeah. And it doesn't matter how old you are. I met him at 45. And there's a lot of women out there, you hear it, you see it on the internet, even on TV. Oh, my clock's ticking. I'm 30, am I going to be single for the rest of my life? Those are all the wrong thoughts. And that's the thoughts I had, until I said at the age of 45. I'm like, you know what, if I don't meet anybody, I'm perfectly fine with that. And that's when my husband came into my life. But it's like, you can't force the outcome. You can dream about your dream man but the universe will bring you what you manifest. You can't force it, like say, Oh, I want that guy. And that guy is going to come to me. It's just doesn't work that way. 
 
MARISSA: No, I agree. I love that. Thank you. So where can we pre-order your book? Because it comes out in just a month. That's so exciting.
 
LORRAINE: Yeah, I know. 
 
MARISSA: You're to be over the moon. 
 
LORRAINE: I'm so like crying tears of joy. Because it's like, I saw the book cover, the back of it, I just finished the back of it and I'm like, Oh my God, I'm an author. But yeah, it's on pre-order now at freeingyourheartforlove.com, there are bonuses if you preorder it. Entered to win a Kindle, my author Q&A and my first chapter for free, and then the book comes out end of April. So yeah, you can go to my website, freeingyourheartforlove.com, and all my social media handles are on there too.
 
MARISSA: Awesome. Thank you so much. If you could give survivors one piece of advice, what would it be?
 
LORRAINE: You know, I would say forgiveness. I didn't realize how much I didn't forgive myself for things that I've done in the past until I wrote this book last year. So I would say forgive yourself, and forgive those that have hurt you in the past. Because it really is freeing to have that feeling of not holding on to that hurt anymore. So that would be the one thing that I learned about myself at the age of 49. I keep saying my age because it's crazy to think how long it took me. And that was the reason why I wrote this book, it's because I want somebody who's younger to not have to wait until their 40s to figure it out. Like you can read my experiences and know that you don't have to go through that.
 
MARISSA: That's a beautiful message. Thank you so much for all the work you're doing for survivors of abuse and assault and thank you so much for sharing your story with us and with the world. I think that you're going to make a huge impact. So thank you very, very much. 
 
LORRAINE: Thank you so much.
 
[OUTRO]
If you enjoyed this podcast you have to check out www.marissafayecohen.com/private-coaching. That's www.marissafayecohen.com/private-coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made for you healing plant to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone and hurt and live a free, confident and peaceful life. Don't forget to subscribe to the Healing from Emotional Abuse Podcast and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen and Instagram at Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We'd love to see you there.

Healing From Emotional Abuse: Wrestling Speaking Out: with BCP and Wiggy Wigowski

ROB: Alright ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to a very special edition of the BCP/Breaking Through our Silence tag team connection here as always with my partner and Marissa. We need it more than ever right now. She is Amazon award winning multiple time bestseller. My good friend Miss Marissa Cohen. Marissa, what's up over there? 
 
MARISSA: Hey, it's snowed in Chicago yesterday, which really sucks. 
 
ROB: Really?
 
MARISSA: Yeah.
 
ROB: That's crazy. Everything's been so crazy lately. There's a lot of drama in the Wrestling World. For me personally, this couldn't be a better time. Marissa, thank you as always for everything. And more importantly, we got to welcome our special guests at this time. She's a podcaster, shout out fellow podcaster. Known for the CZW Podcast also works with CZW. I'm very appreciative right now for Miss Wiggy Wigowski taking the time to talk to us about the Speaking Out Movement. Wiggy, how are you? Welcome.
 
WIGGY: Hey, I'm great. And I'm in Canada and it did not snow yesterday. So...
 
MARISSA: How did it miss you but hit me?
 
ROB: So you said you're a Maple Leaf's person but are you a Raptors first?
 
WIGGY: I'm not a big basketball fan. I cheer for the Raptors because they're Toronto's team. 
 
ROB: It's all about the [inaudible 01:13] up there?
 
WIGGY: I'm huge Jays fan. So...
 
ROB: Okay, I got you. Good for you. But I've been to a Blue Jays game. That's awesome. And I can't wait till the world is back to normal and we can start and we can start going to these games and things again. But we thank you so much for taking a few minutes. It's very interesting to me because as we reach out to people, we talk to people about the speaking out movement, a lot of people are either like, yeah, I'm in like, let me know. And a lot of people are like, hey, no thank you, end of conversation. Which I get from both sides, and Wiggy you, from the get go have been very, like, whatever you guys need, let me know when, I have no problem speaking out about things that had happened, speaking out about things that happened to other people. Kind of just tell us your philosophy going into this because I know a lot of people have a lot of fear talking about things or being blackballed, which I completely understand. But kind of tell us your philosophy going into this.
 
WIGGY: Well, early on, when all the sisters were coming out I was kind of up in the air but telling my story. I talked to DJ Hyde, my boss, my very good friend, he owns CZW. He knew I had bad experiences with Chikara and I said, listen, other people have had these things, I want to back them up. And he was like, go for it. So I told my story. I like to think I held absolutely nothing back. Because personally, for me, I realized -- I take responsibility for this, this is one thing I tried to make very clear. I take responsibility for my actions. I made a lot of stupid choices, a lot of bad decisions, but they were mine. You know, I made them, I own them. And I was embarrassed about it, for a number of different ways. But then I kind of realized like, this is not my shame. So I have nothing to be ashamed of. This is shame for being the kind of person to do the things that he did. Are we naming names here or...?
 
MARISSA: Only if you want to.
 
ROB: Up to you, whatever you're comfortable with? 
 
WIGGY: I mean, I already named it. It was Kobald from Chikara, Anthony Wilson. And so I kind of told my story and I realized nothing was going to happen to me. I'm much more peripherally involved in wrestling then wrestlers are and like you said, I very well understand the fear of being blackballed, or being on a show where your accuser is at, of just not being believed, which has been the case for so many years up until now. So I kind of realized, listen my involvement in wrestling, CZW they've got my back here. So nothing's going to happen to me. And I made the decision that -- I basically have the general life philosophy that if something shitty happens, you can just feel shitty about it and let it be, or you can learn from it and use it to do something good going forward. And one makes it worthwhile having happened and the other just leaves the shitty situation forever. So I decided, I'm in a position that I'm sure a lot of people wish they could be in to be able to speak up with what happened to them. So I publicly posted that anyone who has a story, but is afraid to tell it for any reason whatsoever, that I would be their voice. Send it to me, I will post it anonymously, I will make sure that people know what happened to them and they don't have to live in fear because of it. 
 
ROB: That's amazing. And talk about that response. You mentioned not only speaking out for yourself, but speaking out for others who felt that they couldn't, which I've seen first-hand as Marissa and I move forward. Like I mentioned, a lot of people are very just like, hey, no, thank you. I understand the hesitation. So when you put that out there, you speak out for yourself. Now you're like I'm going to speak out for everybody else. What was the response you got from that?
 
WIGGY: Oh, it was very positive, it was very good. I very quickly received a couple messages. I saved everything. I still talk to some of the people. I have messages on Facebook and on Twitter. I got a couple early. And I posted them exactly as they sent it to me. What I did do, and I also want to be really clear about this is, I didn't post anything about anybody who hadn't already been called out. Because the sad thing is, and this is absolutely nothing against any of the people who did reach out to me, but there are people out there who will use a movement like this vindictively. And so I wanted to be very careful that I didn't falsely accuse anybody. So if somebody had already been called out, and this was merely verifying that, and just another person saying, yes. So we were all validating each other's stories. That's what I wanted to do. I didn't post anything that involved anybody else. I did have one incident where somebody had sent me a message that I believe involved like either four or six different people. I posted it. And I absolutely want to give him his props for being so kind with the way he reached out. Eric Corvis was an Indie Wrestler from New Jersey area. 
 
ROB: Yeah. I played him [inaudible 07:38] the ring. 
 
WIGGY: Yeah. Oh, cool. Okay. He reached out and he said, I'd like to explain. And he was so awesome. He was like, the first thing he said in the message was, I'm not messaging you to attack you. Which I mean, bang on. That is a guy who knows how to handle a situation like this. And he said, I just want to let you know that the story that you're told, that my involvement in it is false. And he explained what was wrong with the story. And he gave me people the backup his version of it. And I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I said, I had no idea. Four of the other people in the message had already been called out, which was the reason I posted it. Like I said, I confirmed that his involvement had been elaborated, and he was innocent. And I posted very clearly, I'm like, I am so sorry. I did not mean for him to get dragged in with these other people who had already been accused. He is entirely innocent, his story has been verified. I am so sorry. And he publicly liked it was, he was so kind with the way he did everything. And he didn't get defensive, he didn't get aggressive. And that made just all the difference in the world. He didn't come at me hot with anything. And that was that was the only instance. So other than that one, which as I said, the only reason I posted it is because four people had already been accused in it. But other than that, if somebody -- and there was a couple stories I didn't post because I couldn't verify that they were true. And I like I said, I didn't want to take somebody's word for it that I didn't know from like, the next guy. Because the only way that a movement like this works is if it's 100% honest. If there's false accusations or vindictive accusations, something like this is so fragile, because it's the first time it's happened where so many people felt comfortable coming forward with abuse allegations in various forms - physical, mental, emotional, sexual. It's such a fragile thing that it takes so little to damage the credibility. And once you damage credibility, the old school thinking comes in, like, oh nah, it's bullshit, just being made up. And I wanted very much to contribute to the good that this could do. And I wanted to make sure that I wasn't the person to accidentally bring it down. 
 
ROB: Wow!
 
MARISSA: That's awesome. And I'm glad that you took those extra steps to keep yourself and the survivors safe. And even on top of what you said, the reason for you not posting it was you didn't want the movement to be impacted. You could also having had no other accusations to that person have almost outed a survivor.
 
WIGGY: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And like that, I mean, obviously, that was like, the most important thing. And there were a couple of people who did reach out who wanted to be vague about their stories. They didn't want to take the chance of their story being recognized. And that's another key thing, especially if you're the only person who calls out a certain individual. And if it's true, and I mean, I have no reason to believe that it's not. Wanting to verify, doesn't mean I didn't believe them. It meant that I needed proof that it happened, it had nothing to do with not believing a victim. It had everything to do with I need somebody else to verify that this happened. I can't just post he said - she said. If you're the only person calling out calling an individual, it's going to pretty easy to guess who you are. And I mean, obviously, that would go against the entire point of what I was trying to do. If I'm trying to offer these people a little bit of protection, if I posted such a unique story, that outs them, well then, I mean, their story would get out there, but then at what cost?
 
MARISSA: Right, you could still be isolating that person anyways.
 
WIGGY: Yeah, for sure. I mean, and in some extreme cases, potentially putting them in danger.
 
MARISSA: Right. Would you be comfortable if I asked you to tell us your story? Or at least some of it?
 
WIGGY: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like I said earlier, when it came time to decide if I was going to tell my story or not, I decided that I made the bad decisions, I made the bad choices but it wasn't my shame. It was his shame for what he did. So I had no reason to not tell my story if it would help somebody else. So yeah, my story involves Anthony Wilson, Kobald from Chikara. Obviously, not anymore, I don't think either exists anymore. The character, not the person. I invited him on my show. Besides CZW, my long running shows Pantsless Radio. And that's going, not consecutively. But it started in, like, 10 years ago, which is crazy to think that I wasted so much my life doing this. Joking, I'm joking. But yeah, Rob is kind of like, but yeah, I understand what you mean. So I invited him to my show, he was great. We started talking after that, we really hit it off. Shortly after that, Chikara had a show up here just outside Toronto. I went to it, I met him. It was really good. This is all entirely in character. He never said a word outside of his character voice. But then we started talking outside of wrestling and stuff, I had offered to help promote them. He was part of the Batiri [14:45] and I'm very, very clear about this. The other two members of the Batiri [14:39], who are Chris Peaks, and Louis Valley, they were fantastic to me then. And they have been even kinder to me now. They are two absolute stand up guys, and I could not be more thrilled for the success that they've had recently. So, anything I talked about, they had absolutely no knowledge of. They were like, completely sideswiped when all these stories came out. But at the same time, they were New York guys and he was a Pennsylvania guy. So they kind of made their own way to Philly shows and Jersey shows and stuff themselves. They only traveled together when they were outside of that area. So we started talking more and more, and eventually, we started talking on Skype, just as him, as himself. We got to where we're talking twice a week, and we really hit it off. And there was a lot of flirting. And I offered to make them a website. I was building websites at the time too. So I made them a website. I was basically like going -- anything I could do to help them I would do. And this was 2012. September of 2012 was king of trios. And over the summer, him and I, honestly, it really felt like we were dating. Just the way we would talk when we talked, he would compliment me, we had all these like little inside jokes and it just felt like a relationship. Neither one of us said anything, but it just very much felt like a blossoming relationship. We decided that I was going to come down for trios, and I was going to stay for, I think, eight days. And I was so excited. We were going to spend all this time together. Basically, it was going to solidify our relationship. And it was great. And a little bit before that happened, I had made a joke. We were talking and I made a joke about being single. And he goes, Oh, I'm not single. And it was like being hit by a truck.
 
I was like, what? And he said, I'm not single. I'm sorry. I don't believe he actually said I should have told you, he just said I'm sorry. So I was like, oh, okay, well, you're treating me like your girlfriend and apparently you have another girlfriend. So this is great, thanks. But I decided, okay, I'm going to go for my trip anyways. Basically, I couldn't cancel because it was all prepaid. If I had to cancel I would have lost all the money. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to go, I've got other friends who are going to be there, so that's fine. I got there on a Tuesday night, he picked me up at the airport, which was the first time I saw him unmasked. He drove me to my hotel. He held my hand in the car the entire way there. We talked and we listened to music, and it was fantastic. He came into my hotel with me, he helped me get settled. And I mean, this is like after midnight, by the time this all happened. When he left, he literally tucked me into bed, told me a bedtime story, and was like I'll see you tomorrow. 
 
So I think you can understand why I was still confused to this situation. Like, okay, well, if you're not single, do you do this with all of your friends? Do you go to [inaudible 18:50] place at night and tuck him into bed and kiss him on the forehead? He very much kept things confusing. The next day he came over, we hung out in my room. He showed me pictures of his wife. Yeah, he had told me he wasn't single, he had not mentioned that he was married. I mean, I literally sat there as he was showing me happy pictures of him and his wife on his phone. And I thought I was going to be sick. I told him that I didn't want to see anymore because it hurt me and he got mad at me. And this is where the gas lighting started. And I didn't even know what gas lighting was, I didn't have slightest clue. He told me basically that you know, like, I shouldn't be jealous and he's so happily married, and his wife is a lovely person and basically like, how dare I not be a supportive friend to him telling me about her, and he left. Where I was staying, I was in Easton. So it was far from where all of my other friends were, plus it was through the week, so everybody's at work anyways. So he basically when he left me, I was left alone. I had no transportation, I didn't know where I was, I wasn't familiar with the town at all. And I wasn't in an area where I could just kind of go out for a walk. So he basically isolated me and he left me there for over a day with no communication. And I very much had a breakdown. I was contacting friends, I was hysterical. I was like, oh my God he's never going to speak to me again. I'm so stupid, I should have just shut up and looked at the pictures of his wife. 
 
And eventually, he came back about a day and a half later, he came back over at night, and acted like nothing had happened. So I was like so relieved. But I mean, the message had very clearly gotten to me. For lack of better phrasing, don't cross him or he'll just ditch me again. King of trios happened. The first night, which is great, I got to meet up with a bunch of my friends at the show. After the show, a bunch of the guys, the Chikara guys and some other people went to a bar after the show, and went drinking. I went there with a girlfriend of mine. We got there late. I started drinking. I had a few drinks in a very short period of time. Again, my decision. I was very stressed so the idea of the idea of getting a little drunk was not a bad one at that point, as far as I was concerned. I hadn't eaten because I had been so upset from everything that had been going on. So I got really drunk really quickly. And he decided to play a really fun game of let's see what the drunk girl will do. He told me to make out with my girlfriend, who I went to the bar with. I did. We were there until closing. We left. There's another girl who I casually knew, he told me I should make it with her too, on the middle of the street, which I did. And there was a guy, and he was like, you should go kiss him. And I was like, no. And he goes, come on. He's probably never had a kiss in this life, just go kiss him on the cheek. So I did. I thought I was pleasing him. He then became furious with me for my behavior. I was horrible person, I had embarrassed him, I had humiliated myself and he stormed off. And I was so wasted, I had no idea what was going on, except he was mad at me again. I had screwed up again. Because he was mad at me again. My girlfriend drove me to a hotel, I sobbed in the car the entire way. I was like, how do I fix this? How do I fix this? I was like, who can I call to fix this? Maybe if I call one of the guys they could call him and tell him how sorry I am. I got to my hotel, I slept a bit that night and we had to go. 
 
The following day was Saturday and there was a big like Fan Fest thing for the day. So I went there, I met my friends. I felt like just absolute garbage. Just garbage. And it was strictly emotionally from how upset he was. And I kept saying with my friend, but they wanted to go over there. And I was like, I stayed very quiet. I didn't want to make him any angrier at me than he already was. Finally, near the end of the afternoon, I was over by where they were. And my friends had walked away. And he leaned over and he said, you're lucky, I'm even speaking to you right now. And which, again, that was just another shot. You know, every time something like this came up, it was like just being punched in the face. I went to the show that night. I don't remember anything. I don't remember anything but I knew the three shows. I sat there staring and I just don't know what happened. Everybody was going back to the same bar that night. I didn't go, I hung out with three of my friends. Basically, because they knew that there was something very wrong with me and they didn't want to leave me alone. So they stayed with me. And I kind of told one of them a little bit what was going on. And he was like, I think we should go. I think we should go to the bar, and we'll all go with you. We will make sure that nothing happens. And I was like, okay, because at this point, I just wanted to go to literally beg his forgiveness. We went there, we walked in, and he was sitting at a table with his wife. And we were close enough, it was a very small place, he obviously saw me. Me and my friends, we kind of went over and he introduced me to his lovely wife. Who is, I'm sure, a very, very nice woman. She's very sweet, very smart, she was just wonderful woman. And I felt like the absolute scum of the earth. So I don't really remember how the weekend ended. But I was still there. Because I was there for another couple of days after everybody was gone. And I don't really remember a lot of what happened. It was very much a roller coaster of emotion. But things have gotten good enough again on the last day that we were there. 
 
Oh, the last day before I was leaving, he was going to drive me to the airport. He came over through the day. And again, was all like touchy, huggy, acting like my boyfriend again. And my room had a big jacuzzi in it. And he was like, I think we should get in the jacuzzi before you leave. So, next bad decision. I hop in the jacuzzi with him. And again, in my head, I'm like, oh, he does love me, he does want to be with me. And I mean, he was all but saying these things, you know. And I mean, it took me a long time to realize but he liked stringing me along. He liked knowing that I was there at his disposal. So I mean, I'm just like, head over heels again. And I have leave that night. And so he drives me to the airport, we have this tearful goodbye. And that was probably the only, I think that was the only time in my life that I have ever been truly suicidal. I walked through the airport, crying non-stop. I couldn't stop. I felt like I couldn't breathe. And I felt like my world was ending. I went into the bathroom and I looked in the mirror, and I didn't recognize myself. And I stood there looking at myself thinking, you know, I should just die. This is too much, I can't do this. I should kill myself. And probably the only reason I didn't at that time is because I had no means to. I walked back out, I went to my gate, I sat on the floor, and I just sat there with my knees pulled up, my face buried in my knees, and I just sat there sobbing until I got on the plane. I came home and I was an absolute basket case. All I did was live to talk to him, live to have any sort of connection to him. And, I mean, if he had me hooked before that trip, he absolutely owned me after it.
 
And I ended up going back between September and February the next year. I spent an obscene amount of money going back down to see him as often as I could. I went back down in November, hoping to be able to -- because again, he kept making it seem like come down and we'll hang out. He never, ever mentioned his wife, never brought her up, which to me, kept feeding into we're a real thing. I went back down in November, I was expecting to spend time with him. I spend an hour or so with him when I first got there. And I didn't see him again for the rest of the weekend, except at the shows. So basically, I spent a shit ton of money to go down there and to be left alone in isolation again. And like I said, so many of these things I didn't realize until after the fact that they were all a means to control me. I just thought it was what it appeared to be on the surface. I was back down in December for a pay-per-view. And his Christmas present to me was taking me to lunch with his wife.
 
So that was, basically, I sat there just being like, this is the nicest woman in the world. I want to be her friend. And I am the absolute scum of the earth for what is happening here. And to me, it was all my fault. It wasn't what he was doing. It wasn't he was cheating on his wife. It was, I was doing it all. I was back down in February and it was just like, a pattern of the same things. In between seeing each other, he was just this super sweet boyfriend type person. And how much he cared about me whenever we talked. He'd be like, you look so pretty, I miss you so much, and, etc. I was back down in April for Wrestle Mania weekend. I was at Wrestle Con. I was actually working at Wrestle Con. He came in for the weekend, and he stayed in my hotel with me. He stayed with me first night, he slept in my bed with me, cuddling me. The night after the show, he got a message from his wife that he was very concerned about, so he had to leave right away. So he left me again. I'm looking at Rob's face during this and like the expression on your face are just, yeah! It's basically the same expression that I have now once I realized, oh, this is what actually was happening.
 
I was back down in June. So it was September to June. I spent over 10 grand going down to see him. June I was there, a friend of mine -- I think it was Chikara's first pay-per-view or second pay-per-view. It was a show where the company got fake shut down. He was going to stay with me again then. We were in Philadelphia. I had a friend who stayed with me Friday and Anthony was going to stay with me Saturday night. So it was fine. Friday night I was hanging out with my friends. Saturday we went to the show, the stuffs shut down. 
 
And just for anybody who's wondering about the whole fake Chikara closing down business. They didn't know. Anthony had left the show early to take his merch and stuff back to my hotel, but the guys who were there, they didn't know that the show was going to be shut down. By the time I got back to my hotel, he was actually texting guys from the company saying, I don't know what's going on, but apparently we're shut down. So that was just kind of a fun side note. So he was very upset, I needed to be the supportive friends to help him through this. That night was the one and only time that anything physical happened between us. And again, I made that decision. I don't pretend I didn't. He didn't force me or anything. I made the decision to sleep with him. 
 
What had also been going on during this time, his father had passed away the previous winter. So this is like June 2013. And he was having obviously having a difficult time, which is 100% legit. He had told me that the only way he was able to cope with it was through sex. He had been seeing another woman who actually came out with her story and that was what actually spurred me to come up with mine. Because he had done the exact same things to her. He had been seeing her. She was up in New England and there were a lot of shows that he worked at through Raptor [36:32], so you would go up there for a weekend. And he would play house with her and her daughter. And he would tell me all about it. Every detail, and I had to listen because I was his best friend. And he couldn't tell anybody but me. So I had to listen to all the details of the sexual relationship that he was having with this woman. And it didn't matter how I felt hearing them. If I didn't listen, and let him tell his stories to me, then I was a bad friend. And he wouldn't be friends with me anymore. So yeah, and that actually kind of culminated with him... He told me at the time, it was absolutely an accident. But he had sent me a sexual snapshot of the woman that he was with. And I realized he wanted to make sure I knew that he didn't need me. He had somebody else. So if I stepped out of line that was it. And it's, so funny, because I mean it's so clear to me now, what he was doing. But at the time, I was just like -- I had just become such a complete and utter wreck that the only thing I thought for sure that I knew in my life was what he told me. 
 
So after that weekend, when I did sleep with him, his wife called me. Again, I was just watching Rob's reactions. His wife called me and accused me of sleeping with her husband, which literally up until that weekend had not been true. And I was like, no. I was here with my friends. And basically he was like, you can't let her know. So I swore up and down to this unbelievably nice, trusting, sweet woman, that no, I did not do anything with her husband. It was not true, it was not true. And this actually went on. So much of this time period is really a blur for probably a number of reasons. There were a few phone calls from her, where I would just swear, like I would swear up and down to the ends of the earth that nothing had ever happened with us. Because even at this point, we weren't talking as much and things had definitely like -- I believe he basically told me he was going back to his wife. He had gotten all this stuff out of his system so he was going back to his wife. And so of course, I mean, my job was to be happy for him. And so we didn't talk too much and stuff. But even at that point, I was like so very much under his thumb. I had to protect him. I could not let her let her know what he had done. And by that time, I was just so completely and utterly ashamed that I couldn't possibly let her know that this was the kind of person that I was. And that that's what I truly believe. I'm like, I can't believe this is the kind of person I am. And I took 100% of the responsibility of everything that had happened. 
 
It was still so raw after things had ended, that I didn't have the perspective yet to see what had really happened. And it's like my best friend, I had been telling him all this stuff through. And it actually got to the point that he said, and this was actually, part of the reason why I let things go with him was my best friend said to me look, he was like Wig he's literally driving you crazy. If you don't stop talking to him, I will stop talking to you. And that was like the shock that I needed to wake up enough to when he said he was going back to his wife to let it happen. I mean, it wasn't even like I would have tried to fight for him. I would have been on my like hands and knees groveling, begging for him to not cut me out of his life. And like I said, my best friend I love him to pieces. And I will always owe him for that. That woke me up enough that I could say, okay, I need to let this go. I need to let him go. And I guess for a very long time for years after that, I never said anything about it. Because at that point, I was -- once enough time and distance had gone by. I was just like, I can't believe how stupid I was. I was so ashamed of my behavior. I was so ashamed of how stupid I had been. It took a lot of years to go by before I realized, okay, you know what, they were my decisions. But to a certain extent, I was manipulated into them. That wasn't the kind of person I was before I met him. That's not the kind of person I've been since. And if that's the case, then there's really only one catalyst to what I did and who I became. And then, like I said to you guys, I kind of realized at a certain point that this is not my shame. I made terrible decisions but I'm not the one who should be ashamed of what I did; he is. 
 
And like I said, when I saw that this woman told a story, I was like, I was reading this story and I was like, I know this. I know all of this. And I contacted her and I was like, he did the same thing to me. And she was like, I always suspected. And we started talking, and I told her, I was like, I knew every detail of your relationship, because he would tell me every disgusting detail he could, because it would hurt me and it would control me. And it's like, we just apologized to each other and we're like, no, we have no reason to apologize to each other. I despised this woman and she probably felt the same about me. Because he put us in direct competition for his affections. And then after we spoke, and more and more stories started coming out, we found out we were not the only two women he was doing this to, all at the same time. There were several others. Another one reached out to me on Facebook, she did not want to tell her story. But she said I want to tell my story to you. She said she needed to expel it. She needed to get it out of her head. So it couldn't hurt her anymore. And it was the same story. She said I can't go public. And I was like, I won't force you to. She goes but somebody else needs to know. And it was the same thing. He was just doing this over and over and over again. And the night of Speaking Out when this all first started happening, he emailed me and all it said was I'm sorry for everything. And I was like no, you son of a bitch, you're sorry we got busted. 
 
ROB: Wow!
 
WIGGY: So that's my story. And like I said it doesn't make me look good, I don't pull any punches, I'm not trying to protect myself or make myself look like a victim. I 100% made every terrible choice I did. I wasn't necessarily in the right frame of mind when I made them but I still made them. But that also doesn't make him any less of a complete and utter scumbag, or his misbehaviour rather. 
 
ROB: I'm going to Zack Morris this thing. First of all, thank you for saying that, timeout real quick, virtual hug I know we're not in the same room but I'll hug Cane the big red machine for you. 
 
WIGGY: I'll hug my coke, which normally I would do because I really love my diet coke. 
 
ROB: Yeah, but like good on you though, keeping it real, I'm very [inaudible 46:02]. 
 
WIGGY: I'm very sorry that that went on for so long. I've never actually spoken it like all out loud at one time. Oh, my God, I'm sorry. I'm putting everybody to sleep. 
 
ROB: I apologize to Marissa every day for the same thing, please. But no, no, seriously, thank you for keeping it real. Thank you for opening up. Like what a roller coaster, I'm so glad to see you own everything, keep it real, speak out on behalf of others and really just like, I admire you for that. And it's good to see that you're doing so much better now. And you're so confident now. And the one word, and I'll throw this to Marissa because we've had a lot of talks about this, that comes to my mind is when you said everything is control. Marissa, I don't know if you want to weigh in but you know a lot about this stuff. 
 
MARISSA: This is my expertise. So I want to actually backtrack for a second because I agree and I disagree with Rob. So thank you for speaking your truth and talking about what you endured. I mean, everything you said was heart wrenching and I just had like a million thoughts per minute. Like, I just want to give you so many hugs. 
 
WIGGY: You know what's so funny, you pointed out a word that he said and I just focused on a word that you said, endured? At no point. Did it ever feel like something I was enduring? That was love. I wasn't enduring it, I was in love. And he loved me too. I just had to prove myself to him. I had to be the woman he wanted. We should probably leave this part out. But I don't know why, but his wife is in a wheelchair. She can stand, she can walk a little bit but she is in a wheelchair. And I always in the years since, I always thought he wanted -- this sounds horrible but he was trying to mold women into her, but who could physically do the things that he wanted. And he got big into BDSM. And his wife wanted no part of that. So that was what he was seeking with outside people. And it just always felt like he was trying to make me into his wife who he could do kinky shit with. And I realized that after the fact, but like I said to me during it, it was never something that I was enduring. I was in love. That's the way our relationship was. Funny, funny what perspective does to you. 
 
MARISSA: I was going to say that's an interesting perspective. Because as a third party outsider who hears stories like this every day, my mind went to okay, so there was a system in place. He had his routine, where he would put girls or women in various categories, and he would do all these mechanisms and these systems to keep them where he needed them. But from your perspective, it was very different. It was genuine and loving. And so do you have the same view on it now? Do you still view it as well, he loved me but this was...
 
WIGGY: No. No. Enough time has passed, where I can look back and see things the way they actually were, not the way I wanted to see them. I wanted to see them in a certain way because I was in love. And despite knowing his wife and meeting her on a few occasions, in my head he had he had built this little bubble with me with this life of how we could be together. And he at no point ever said like, I'm never going to leave my wife. So by virtue of the things that he never said, he kept me hoping and feeling like there was a true possibility of him and I ended up together. Which I mean in retrospect, obviously, he was just stringing me along for everything and anything that he could get from me. At the time I was so head over heels in love with him it just seemed like, oh, well, this is just the way our relationship is. And that's actually quite terrifying in the fact because like a lot of women I have always said, oh, I would never stay in an abusive relationship. If a guy if a guy ever raised his hand at me once, that'd be it. And it's very scary to realize how easily you could have your heart played on and have your strings pulled, until you're actually making excuses for him. And I mean, he never hurt me physically but it's very scary to think that, I feel like I'm a smart, strong woman, I will not tolerate that bullshit. Except I tolerated that bullshit. It's like how did that even happen?
 
MARISSA: A lot of people will recognize abuse as physical abuse. If you’re not getting hit, you're not being abused. And that's a story and a narrative that I aim to change. Because most relationships don't actually hit the physical abusive part, they stay in emotional, psychological, and verbal, because those are the easiest to prey upon and the easiest to hide. And I truly believe that emotional abuse of all abuse is probably one of the absolute worst, because like you said, they prey upon your emotions, they manipulate you into thinking things are okay, that aren't okay, they make you believe them and then they control your actions like a puppet. So the part that I wanted to backtrack on and say that I disagreed with Rob on, was when he said, I'm glad that you owned up to everything. And on one hand, I'm glad that you admit everything that happened and see it for that perspective, but on the other hand, doing something under coercion is still not your fault. So even if he didn't force himself on you, he coerced you over the course of a year, and he was manipulating you and changing your brain and rewiring your biology. It's insane the systematic changes that people can make, just using words and actions on you. And so, to one point, yes, like you did agree to sleep with him. Yes, you did book those tickets and go see him and be that person in his life. But on the other hand, he was basically a puppet master, puppeteering your moves and keeping you in a box so that he could play with you when he wanted. It's awful.
 
WIGGY: 100% 100%. And it's like he knew my weaknesses, he knew my insecurities. He made me feel like everything that I was self-conscious about didn't matter but they only didn't matter to him. Anybody else, that's all they would see and they wouldn't want me. 
 
MARISSA: That's such a horrible play. That's such like a low blow.
 
WIGGY: It really is. I've had weight issues for most of my adult life, and I fluctuated like, up and down. And at that point, I was bigger than I wanted to be. And he made it very clear, he didn't mind but everybody else would. He thought I was still beautiful, but nobody else would. 
 
MARISSA: You're lucky I love you because nobody else will. 
 
WIGGY: Exactly, and it's funny, because I will admit this really, I've never really completely understood the impact of emotional abuse up until that point in my life. And it always seemed like, well, I don't get it, how bad could it really be? But looking back, I realized it affected every single aspect of my life. It affected my friendships to the point like I said, my best friend said if you don't end things with him, I will stop talking to you. It affected my work life because I was always so stressed and worrying, and it's like, if he messaged me, I had to make sure I was available. My mom, who was my best friend she knew what was going on. Not by what I told her but what she observed in me. And I've lied to her so many times that there is nothing going on between us. And that's probably what I hated myself the most for. But it's like the perspective, from now being able to look back, his bullshit touched every single part of my life. And so I get it. I really get it now, just how deep emotional manipulation and abuse, it affects you like nothing else.
 
MARISSA: And it affects you to the core too. I mean, like I said it actually shifts your biology. Our brains they're a muscle, they move and they function and different parts will be stimulated and whatever. And when you are enduring or when you have endured emotional abuse, it actually changes the amount that -- your brain releases neurotransmitters like dopamine and serotonin, which will impact your happiness levels on a day to day basis. Like it really impacts your whole life. It impacts weight gain and weight loss. It impacts stress levels in cortisol, it impacts everything and we don't recognize it until it's too late. I'm happy, I'm so happy that you had that friend that kind of gave you that push, that nudge that was like, if you don't stop, I can't be a part of this. Was that like the make or break for you?
 
WIGGY: Oh 100%. 100%. He was my rock. He still is. I mean, at the time, he'd been my best friend for seven years. And it's 16 years now. But yeah, that was just like... The idea of losing him that was my final line in the sand. I can't do that. I cannot do that. And I mean, granted, it was kind of helped along by his decision shortly afterwards, or right around the same time, I don't even remember honestly, that he was going back to his wife. But like I said, at the same time had he not told me that I would have been begging, crawling after him trying to get him to not cut me out of his life. So it really like... He all but single-handedly pulled me out of that situation.
 
MARISSA: It's amazing to have a friend like that. I'm going to throw it back to Rob because I totally hijacked this interview.
 
ROB: Oh, no Marissa you're the best.
 
WIGGY: You are. 
 
ROB: She is legit, real deal. But I wanted to ask you this. In wrestling, taking it back to just the general world of wrestling again and kudos to you for like using your platform to speak your truth, turn a negative into a positive, give others the platform as we've seen in recent weeks. I mean, let's be real wrestling, everyone has a name and everyone has a wrestling name. Everyone has a persona and all that, I'm all about that for the entertainment value. And that's what's it's all about smiles on faces, and entertainment for the fans and people accomplishing their dreams and whatnot. But like I said, let's be real people have personas. And I've learned the hard way, people hide behind charities. Yeah, it's crazy people. There's con men and there's people who just completely -- like who I've confided in friend, mentor or whatever, and just stuff comes out. And you're just like, you never should have been here. You never should have been around people, never should have been there. If there's ego, people hide behind charities, you see it more and more. And it kills me, it kills me. Because I've been invested in wrestling over the past year when I was going through my own stuff, and the wrestlers, the talent, the promoters have all been there for me. And then I'm very appreciative of that. But you know, the more you get behind the curtain, the more the negative stuff comes along with it. And that's not everywhere. There's a lot of really, really great people that I hold in high regard and hopefully they don't break my heart. But it's been just crazy, very eye opening and I think true colors always come out. So moving forward, what can you say to speak to that about, how we can make this business better, you know, starting on the independent level, and moving forward.
 
WIGGY: I mean, the simplest thing which is probably the hardest, is to listen to somebody when they come forward. Listen without bias. Listen and instead of assuming right off the bat they're lying, give them the benefit of the doubt. So many people don't come forward, because -- it's got to be the number one reason pretty much across the board, they don't think they're going to be believed. And until there is, like, a consensus throughout the sport, throughout the community, that we will listen to you, we will not judge you, we will give you the opportunity to prove what you're saying is true. Until that is there, things really aren't going to change. The fact of the matter is, you can't just come forward and say, so and so did this. You do have to be able to prove it, because like I said, it's very unfortunate but it does happen, that people use things like this for vindictive means. And that's just a sad fact. But that doesn't mean we can't work around that fact. Be open, listen to people, give them the benefit of the doubt, give them the time to prove that what they're saying is true. But don't just brush away an accusation or a story, because it's a friend of yours, or because it's somebody you're a fan of, or because it's somebody you just don't want to believe that about. Because, like you said, that the fact of the matter, and I mean, this goes from WWE all the way down to Schleps like us. There's Wiggy and then there's Debbie. And you might think, you know one. You know one, that doesn't necessarily mean you know the other. There's Rob, and then there's Rob. 
 
ROB: Pretty much. Yea, you hit that one on the head. 
 
WIGGY: You know what people put out there. Like I said, right from WWE all the way down, if you know what people put out there, that doesn't necessarily mean you know who they are. And it doesn't matter what your job is. There's shitty people in all aspects of life unfortunately. And just because somebody is in a position that you like, you respect, you're a fan of, doesn't mean that it's not possible. And I mean, for so long, I think that's been part of the problem. It's like, well, you're on my TV, you couldn't possibly be a bad person. Oh, okay because it's not like a television or movie star has ever done anything back. So much of it, I think, is just listening, and being willing to believe. I mean, not believe blindly, for sure but giving people the opportunity. Letting them feel safe enough to come forward. And I very much understand why so many people don't feel safe enough for a number of different reasons. But that, I think, is the one thing that needs to change. People in positions of power need to be willing to listen when someone comes to them and says, listen, this has been going on. And it shouldn't matter if they're your friend, it shouldn't matter if they're your top draw, it shouldn't matter how big your social media following is. Any shitty person can be all of those things. We need to as a community, we need to accept that these terrible things happen. I think the first step is letting -- I don't like using the word victims because I feel like it's almost putting down. They're survivors, I like that word much better. Survivors of these things, they need to know that there will be people there who believe them, who won't judge them and who will accept them. Despite these things having happened. And I really think that's the first thing that needs to occur. 
 
MARISSA: Rob, are you okay? You're kind of grimacing,
 
ROB: No, I can't take much more. This Wrestling World so crazy, it's been so great to me. But as you see, there's a lot of...
 
WIGGY: Well, exactly like I feel very much the same way. 
 
ROB: You know it better than I do. Yeah. You know it better than me, I'm still very new to this. Like, it's a circus. It really is.
 
WIGGY: It is. I started Pantsless Radio doing wrestling stuff in February of 2010. My co-host at the time was One Pineapple Pea, Sugar Dunker. 
 
ROB: Oh, really? 
 
WIGGY: Yeah. Sugar and I go way back. I have so many interviews, like 10 years of interviews and stuff, and I love this. I have done this -- I have been very, very little money off of it. I do it because I have come across some really good people. Honest, genuine people. And if I can get them some publicity, if I can get people knowing them a little better, get some eyes on them, that can maybe somehow advance their career or their dream, or you know, anything. Like, I want to do it. Like, I love wrestling. I've loved it since I was a little girl. And just being able to be involved in any way, it's amazing to me, it's absolutely amazing to me, but at the same time, it's sad. It makes me really sad. But something like this, like speaking out, it makes me so happy because it gives me hope that maybe one day, this community of all of us can be a positive place. That it can be better, that we can make it better. And that gives me a lot of hope for the future. Whether it ever happens or not. 
 
ROB: Very well said, very well said Wiggy. It's crazy but I get what you're saying. Like I posted something yesterday, let's do better for some of these kids that want to be wrestlers. Let's be better for the people that are doing it now moving forward, I think we can all do that. I think like Marissa always says, having a conversation is a great place to start. And we know there's some organizations coming about, guys, let's get some background checks going. Let's do our homework, let's have the conversations. And Wiggy before we get out here, just last one for me. 
 
Let's get that shameless promo. Tell everyone where they can follow you on social, all that good stuff. And honestly, if they want to reach out to you, and they have something they want to say, and they want you to be the voice.
 
WIGGY: Oh, yeah. 100%, absolutely. Just because it's not still June, it doesn't mean that you can't still speak out with your stories. And if you need a voice to do that for you, well, I am a loud one with a Canadian accent. But I will happily, happily do that for you. I'm on Twitter at Wiggygator. I used to do a show with a weekly wrestling podcast and my co- host used make fun of the way I spelled my Twitter name. Because it's very sing-song like. So it's W-I-G-G-Y-G-A-T-O-R.
 
ROB: Yeah, it is.
 
 
WIGGY: Like Rob's head is kind of bopping along too. I'm on Instagram at the same, you can find me on Facebook Wiggy Wigowski, my 100% real name. If you have anything, I'm very happy to talk about this stuff. I think it needs to be talked about more often, for too many years people were told to shut up. And the more people talking about it now the better. And like if you have a story that you need to get off your chest, even if you don't want it to be public, if you just need to get something out of your head, so it stops having that power over you, please 100% hit me up. My email is pantslessradio@gmail.com. Pants with an S, not pant less because that's just wrong on so many levels. And just keep speaking out when you feel you're able to, find somebody who will do it for you if you can't, and let's just get rid of those people. We have managed to exile so very many of them who were some of the worst offenders but there's countless more out there. And I have a four year old little nephew who loves wrestling and I want independent wrestling to be a place where I can take him to his show. He can go crazy over everything that's happening and I don't have to worry about the people he's going to meet, the people he's going to be exposed to, to one day having to tell him why he can't see his favorite wrestler anymore. Let's think of it that way and let's just make it better.
 
ROB: Wow! That very well said I think that's a perfect spot to end it on. Thank you so much Wiggy for coming on, opening up, keeping it real, turning a negative into a positive, and you really are an asset to this business. Thank you so much for taking the time and stay safe out there. Continued success moving forward. Alright.
 
WIGGY: Thank you so much. Anytime! Anything I can, like I told you I told you in that first message, I am so in and anything I could do to help this movement you guys know where to find me? In Canada, where it's not snowing Marissa. 
 
ROB: Yeah, there it is. 
 
MARISSA: Don't remind me.
 
ROB: Alright, guys, but like we always say here on the DCP Breaking through our Silence Connection, I want you to stay safe. Stay positive. Take care of each other. We out, peace!

Healing From Emotional Abuse: NVLD: How Abuse Affects Families: with Jennifer

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to the healing from emotional abuse philosophy. I'm so excited today to bring on Jennifer. She is the host of a podcast called Living With An Invisible Learning Challenge. She's also a survivor of sexual assault and abuse from Southern California. And she's here today because she wants to support other survivors of sexual abuse and be able to speak for people with learning challenges who are affected by sexual assault. Her mission is to support those who might be afraid to speak out for themselves and fear the consequences and retaliation that they may face. Thank you so much for being here. Jennifer. I'm excited to chat with you today. 
 
Jennifer: I'm excited to do this, too. 
 
Marissa: So first and foremost, would you feel comfortable telling us your story? 
 
Jennifer: Yes, I do. So my story is that I'm a survivor of sexual abuse. Though every survivor story and journey to healing is different. I think we'd all agree it's difficult. It's probably the hardest thing we'll ever go through. But what I know for certain is my journey has made me who I am today. The abuse began when I was about six and ended when I was 12 and disclosed. My cousin was my abuser. He was two years older than me. When it began, I was too young to understand what was happening and when I eventually disclosed, I had no idea what it would do to the rest of my family, or how my life would change. Let me stop here to provide some context first, because my growing up was different. My cousin's family and mine were very close. We lived near each other and my parents and my aunt work together. I have a brother and my cousin had just one sister then. On top of that, we were home schooled at the place where my parents and Aunt worked. Our grandmother was our primary caretaker, and my parents and Aunt would take turns teaching us our classes throughout the work day. We were super close, and were always together. And even after my cousin's family moved to the east coast, my brother and I learned to visit them nine or 10 times in those first years. One more piece of information is relevant for context. I have a learning challenge. I'm not neuro-typical, I didn't know that during the abuse. But in my sophomore year at college, I was diagnosed with NLD, which stands for nonverbal learning disability, it is something I was born with. I'll say more about that later. So about the abuse. I'm not sure if this exactly counts as sexual abuse. But the abuse began with my cousin taking me into a closet and ping me when I was about six years old. Eventually, he began to sexually abused me. I think I was about eight years old the first time, I didn't know what it was at the time. And I don't know how he knew anything about sex. I definitely didn't. But I trusted him because he was my cousin. The age difference made me feel like he had power over me and I was powerless. Because we spent our days together, regular access was easy. And even after they moved away, because we made so many frequent trips to see them the abuse continued at their house. It continued, and I got older, I started to have strong feelings that this was really wrong. The very last time it happened was when my cousin came to California to visit us. He had been giving his parents a lot of grief and my mom wanted to help my aunt out. My mom thought that maybe if he came to visit us in California, it would help. Of course, she didn't know anything at the time about the abuse. I felt scared about the idea of him coming. During that visit, He abused me three more times. His abuse had started with picking on me, and over the years went from that to intercourse, and the last time he tried to put his penis in my bottom. It hurts so badly that I stopped by yelling stop. I decided that was going to be the last time. I asked him what would happen if I told anyone, he said that we would get into trouble. But I knew he was only one that would get into trouble. I don't know why I didn't disclose to my parents sooner, probably because it took a long time before I really understood what was happening. But looking back at it, now, knowing what I know about people with NLD, I think that also influenced it. I was too naive and trusting. People with NLD are prone to being so. I always believed what I was told, and never questioned anyone older than me. Even at 24, I still sometimes struggle thinking that anyone would ever lie to me or try to deceive me. I still tend to believe whatever someone tells me. 
 
I remember vividly the day I disclosed to my mother. It was a Saturday morning, my cousin was still visiting us on that trip. My mom was getting ready for the day and I told her I needed to talk to her. I felt nervous about telling her. When I got up the courage to disclose, I said something like mom, he is putting his pee-pee in my pee-pee. Clearly I didn't even have the words. She was shocked. At first she couldn't believe that, because we hadn't had the talk about sex yet. So she grabbed one of those facts of life books with some very basic pictures, and asked me to describe and show her what I meant by what I said. I showed her and then she completely lost it. She broke down sobbing reassuring, that she believed me and repeatedly saying, “How could this have happened? I'm so sorry. I failed you.” She immediately called my dad and told him to come home. Right away. It was urgent. She met him in the driveway and told him what I had just disclosed. 
 
There was a whole cascade of events that have followed my disclosure. My aunt flew out. My grandparents got involved. A detective was called to take a report, Child Protective Services came, I had a physical exam, which was frightening and painful. There were lots of tears all around, my cousin and Aunt flew back east and we were left figuring out what to do. We decided not to press charges at that time since my cousin no longer lived near us. 
I began therapy which I continued for five years. I had triggers all through high school, but it lessened as I learned more coping skills in therapy. Therapy helped a lot. I learned several really valuable coping skills like lucid dreaming, using affirmations to make myself feel safe and journaling, to name a few. Meanwhile, things between our families were getting very bad. The other side was minimizing what happened, calling it merely show ant tell. They did not believe it had gone as far as it had. They felt my cousin and I were equally responsible. Things got very ugly with my aunt and uncle and grandfather pushing hard for us to forgive, and blaming, shaming and faulting us when we weren't ready. How could we be no acknowledgment of what happened from my cousin or his family had ever been given. I don't think it ever will. Our two families are estranged to this day. It was sometime after I had disclosed that we learned that there had been another incident of my cousin abusing another cousin. That cousin's parents decided to press charges. My family and I even flew out to the east coast to sit in the courtroom to support her. It was a difficult but powerful experience. And the judge found my cousin guilty and he was put on probation. 
 
He was required to go into counseling and he was forbidden to have any contact with the other family. There were more parts to his sentencing, but I don't remember them all. When I learned about the other girl and their families decisions to press charges, I decided that I want to press charges too. I told my parents and I had their full support. We began that process. We had a hearing in front of the judge. We would have been gone to trial. But in the end the outcome would not have been any different since we were both minors. Originally, I thought I wanted to go to trial because not doing so felt like the abuse would be minimized. But then I knew what that was like for my other cousin, the other girl, he abused. And I decided we'd all had gone through enough. Two traumas really, the sexual abuse and the breakup of our families. I was able to present a victim impact statement, as did several other family members who were with me. I was the last one to read mine. And in doing so I was able to describe how the abuse has affected my life and my family. 
 
Marissa: Thank you so much for sharing all that. I'm so sorry for what you went through. How are you feeling now, after talking about it? 
 
Jennifer: Well, I feel much better. Because each time I share it with somebody, I feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. And it gets easier to say it. So, it does get easier to share it each time. 
 
Marissa: Thank you. I definitely agree with that. I think that the more you talk about it, the more it just kind of flows. The less impact it has on you. So you wrote that just to be prepared. Right? So you wrote your story, which was great. Thank you so much for sharing all that. I'm so sorry for what you experienced in the actual abuse, but then even, especially the aftermath with your family. How do you feel now having gone through that process? Did it make you feel better at the time and now? 
 
Jennifer: Yeah, going through the process with the hearing and the judge? It did make me feel better, because it made me feel like my cousin, I guess you could say, got punished for what he did. And the judge made me feel hurt because I remember during that time when I was 12, I felt like really nobody except for my immediate family believed me and believed my story. And I remember trying to understand why is all this happening. And just trying to wrap my head around all the family drama and interactions. And just trying to understand what was going on. And it was almost like it was kinda a tornado. And just like, what is happening around me? 
 
Marissa: Totally understand. It's just very chaotic. Do you think having an invisible learning challenge, amplified the abuse or made the chaos of everything even worse? 
 
Jennifer: So yes, I do think nonverbal learning disability, the acronym is NLD and NVLD played a part, which I learned about in my sophomore year of college. That's when I was diagnosed, I think it played a part because those people tend to be like I said, in my story, they tend to be more naive and trusting of people. And that's because they tend to have less life experience. And they tend to be more trusting even strangers. And because of them trying to catch up on the life experience that usually affects their trust issues. And even with the trauma that has made my trust issues more amplified, you can say, 
 
Marissa: That makes a really good point, you made a really good point. I think another reason people with NLD are victimized more often because of the stigma and mental health. Right? So when when you have a mental health or a learning challenge, it's less likely that people like professionals will believe you. Or even, just anyone will believe you and you said that's kind of what you experienced. Right? 
 
Jennifer: Right. Exactly. Less people will believe you when you just have a story. You have really no evidence to go with your it's just a he said she said thing. And really because also with my learning challenge, I don't like the word learning disability, So I use challenge instead, is not on the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, which is a manual that helps people get accommodations. Because it's not on there People think you're making something up, which is not true. 
 
Marissa: And even if the diagnosis is in the DSM, right, people will still kind of think you're making it up because there's a stigma attached to mental health and learning challenges. And I think that's disgusting. That's something that I want to focus on. So thank you for bringing that up. So what coping skills aside from therapy did you use to help you heal from your abuse? 
 
Jennifer: So the other coping skills I used is, obviously I got a dog. That was the whole reason we got Truffles. She's a Dijon, Shishu mix. We got her, actually 10, actually going on 11 years ago. And I never had a dog growing up so this was the first animal we had our pet in the house. And they kind of proposed idea to me, and they were like, do you want to get a pet? I'm like, What kind of question is that, of course, I want to get a pet. 
 
Marissa: Do I have a pulse. Of course, I want a pet. 
 
Jennifer: Yeah. And at first, we were wanting a cat because we travel a lot. But we wanted to add like a dog, we started looking at dogs. And then with Truffles, we got the opposite. Because she does act like a cat, she can jump really high, she loves to lay on our couch cushions like cats do. My dad has a pickup truck. And if it's parked by the curb, she can jump into the passenger seat without any help. So she has springs on her legs. And other coping skills would be I got into long distance running in high school and that was kind of a way for me to just get rid of stress. And sometimes when I was running, I would imagine my cousin's face and just kind of punch at his face to let off anger. That kind of worked. And I was kind of imagining like I was running towards my freedom of being free of all the emotions and just letting them go. And travel, my family did world traveling to at least one new country during the summertime and during non school breaks. That started when I was six years old, and when my brother was 11 years old. And it was kind of an escape for me from the sexual abuse that I experienced. Because when we were away from the family, I was away from my cousin. And the other coping skill I used to use was overeating. I did that in high school and college but I don't do that anymore. I used to use that to absorb emotions. And I got over that habit by realizing what I was doing and I decided to stop doing that. And try to express my emotions more by talking about them to my friends, my close friends, and my family. 
 
Marissa: So I want to go back to one of the things that you said before, when you were talking about your story was that you use journaling, and that journaling really helped you. Journaling also really helped me so would you mind maybe talking about some of the things that you write about when you're journaling? 
 
Jennifer: Sure. So yeah, one of the things I would talk about is, I would often like journal the dreams that I would have, which kind of helped get them out of my mind, because I found if they were still, in my mind, I would keep thinking about them. And so I kind of created a dream journal that I would use. I don't use it anymore, because I found when I was able to lucid dream, As soon as I mastered it, I did it on autopilot, basically. And I didn't need to journal about the dreams anymore. 
 
Marissa: That's awesome. And you learned how to lucid dream from therapy? 
 
Jennifer: Yes, I did. Very first therapist taught me that. 
 
Marissa: That's awesome. That's a great technique. I wish I knew how to teach people how to do that. 
 
Jennifer: Yeah, I wish I did too, because it's really helpful. 
 
Marissa: Awesome. So tell me about what you're doing now. Tell me about your full time job. 
 
Jennifer: So yeah, I work with my mom, who is a minister. She's been a minister for more than 40 years. She was ordained when she was 23. So near my age. And she is a unity minister in unity. It's Christian based, but it's not very religious. It's more spiritual for people who don't know what unity is. And the church is called the Unity Center. If people want to look it up. Basically what I do there is I'm an assistant for her, but I also am the manager of the website and the app that they have and her podcast that I helped with. And that was easier to do because I have my own podcast. The tech stuff I find so easy because I'm a millennial. So that helps. Oh, and I am our COVID janitor for our small in-person services that we do virtually on Sundays, Which is just our musical band, and my mom, and the staff, which is just me and my parents. So I just clean up after us when everybody leaves so that it's sanitized. 
 
Marissa: So having grown up with a parent, who's a minister, do you use the scripture as any way to heal from abuse? 
 
Jennifer: That's a good question. Yes, I definitely do use the faith that we have to help healing with abuse, I tend to meditate and actually, I'm wearing prayer beads. So that helps with healing. And I try to meditate a little bit also and when I exercise, I find that meditative because sometimes I can't sit very still. So sometimes I use more of a moving meditation as a coping skill. 
 
Marissa: Awesome, guided meditation for healing and guided meditation for overcoming abuse are really really common tools. Is there any resource specifically you use for meditation? Are you just what do you do? 
 
Jennifer: Usually, I just use deep breathing, or I can listen to one of the meditations that my mom has come up with, she has a lot of them on YouTube. She has her own YouTube channel for the church, so I can listen to the ones that she has on there. 
 
Marissa: Awesome. Is there any particular part of the Scripture any passage that identifies with you or that, that you feel like has comforted you? You can say no, if you haven’t. 
 
Jennifer: I would say something that I do identify with would be the saying that we have many paths, that many paths meaning many religions that exist in the world. And, you know, there's many gods that those religions have. And people follow all of them differently. I'm paraphrasing it. But that's basically what it means. And I like it because it's very welcoming. And, in Unity, we were very non judgmental of the past religion that you used, you can still practice it when you come to a Unity Church, and you can be who you are. 
 
Marissa: That's beautiful. And I think that non judgment and that complete acceptance is really helpful for people, especially people who have endured abuse. I know that from speaking to people who are devout, devout Christians, that they see a lot of hesitation, with feeling comfortable leaving their abuser because of the way that they read and understand and comprehend the different scripture. So I think that being accepting and loving and knowing that people come from different backgrounds is really important. So thank you and your mom and Unity for doing that. Do you have a piece of advice for survivors of sexual assault with NLD? 
 
Jennifer: Yes, I do. I think the ones who have NLD or other invisible learning challenges like autism or ADHD, or Asperger's, that they should be willing to speak up for themselves. 
That if they've been abused sexually, or emotionally or physically in other ways that they should speak up for themselves and be able to say, “Hey, this happened to me, and it wasn't right,” and that they need to advocate for what they need. And they need to basically spread the word to others and be like, no, like the #MeToo movement. This is what I experienced, and I want to help others who are like me, 
 
Marissa: I love that it's forming a community within a community and the sexual assault survivor community, we need to be better at advocating for people with NLD and invisible learning challenges, because they are a part of our community, people from all walks of life who have experienced sexual assault, and we need to be more inclusive and believe survivors. So thank you so much, Jennifer, for that piece of advice and for coming on the show and speaking out for survivors of abuse with invisible learning challenges and NLD because it's so commonplace in that community. 
 
Jennifer: Thank you for having me. And thank you for letting me tell my story and talk about who I am. 
 
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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