Healing From Emotional Abuse

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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. A couple months ago, there was a news report that hit the US for about 10 minutes about a gang rape in Israel in Eilat — a small city at the bottom tip of the country, on the Red Sea, which has been compared to Las Vegas-ish. And it didn't get a ton of media coverage. But apparently in Israel, it opened up the big to do about misogyny and the rape culture of Israel. So, I have the incredible honor of bringing on a friend of mine Tiferet Solomon. She is a bold, amazing Israeli activist who fights for the change in legislation around rape and rape culture. She'll tell you a little bit more about this. But four years ago, she had a rape attempt, and was able to get herself out of the situation. And we'll talk more about that in a minute. She has been fighting to change the legislation and policy in regards to rape drug victims in Israel. Thank you so much for being here Tiferet. I'm so excited to talk to you.
 
Tiferet: It's my pleasure, Marissa, thank you for inviting me,
 
Marissa: Of course. So, you had an experience, a rape attempt? Do you want to tell us a little bit about that, because I think that's kind of, as you said, what put you on the path to doing what you're doing today?
 
Tiferet: Right. So, about four years, actually, it's, it's four years ago and two months, to be exact. I was given a ride to this guy who I met through a Facebook group. I was going up north for the weekend. And I posted on a Facebook group for rides because it is a very small country. And the farthest distance you can go is about eight hours from one end to the other. So, it's very common that people will share rides, also they share with the cost and also, you know, it's nice to have company. So, I wasn't doing an eight-hour ride, I was doing a two-hour ride. But I posted it on Facebook group, I'm going up north, if anyone wants to join. And there were four people who join me, it was fine, everything was good. And then one of them said, I'd actually love to come back with you on Saturday night, back to Jerusalem. And I was more than happy to do so and we just talked the entire ride on the way back. It was just he and I. It was comfortable. I felt very safe and very listened to. Now, after the fact that I realized that I felt so safe and listened to it because he was listening intently to every single word I said and collecting as much information from me as possible. When we reached Jerusalem, it was like 12:39. I was supposed to go to a friend's birthday party. It was later so I wasn't sure if that's still there or not. And he said, would you like to come up with a bit of refreshments before you go? And I was like, you know what? Sure. 15 minutes, it's fine. As I mentioned, the car ride seemed comfortable and nice. And it seemed that we were actually really connecting. There was no sexual tension at all whatsoever. I have to like make that clear, because sometimes people go oh, maybe those mixed messages. No, not at all. I was very, very blunt and very clear about the fact that, that was not where I was at all. It was more just, we had a good time talking together. So, we went up to his house, his roommate was gone. I took with him my bottle of water, just in case I wanted to drink something. We went upstairs we were standing in the hallway outside like his bedroom / the kitchen / the bathroom. And he said, Let's go out for a smoke. And he asked me, wait do you want to drink? And I said No, I'm good. He's like water, coffee tea. And I was like, holding up the bottle in my hand with like a bit of a weird facing. Yeah, I bought with me. Thanks. I'm good. He's like, okay, I'll get the tobacco because then it's like common that people won't cigarettes as opposed to buying pre-rolled. And then he started rummaging on his table on his desk table in his bedroom, which was odd because I noticed on the corner, there was the package of tobacco just sitting there. I'm like, Okay, what am I supposed to do while he's doing this? And then I said, you know, fine, I'll go use the bathroom. And so, I said, I'm going to go excuse myself. When I came out of the bathroom, he came out from a different room with a different case of tobacco which again, you know, it's all of these things that you notice after the fact. In advance I didn't think it was weird because Chainsmokers, thank God I‘m not anymore, but tend to have a lot of tobacco is just lying randomly around the house. So, I really didn't think too much of it at the time. We went up to 12 pillows for both of us a cigarette, and like a single one, though. And who started talking. Mostly he was talking, I asked, you know what he does for a living. Tell me a little bit more about this project you're working on. And as he's talking and smoking, and I noticed, at some point that I lost train of thought he was talking about things that made sense, he was telling me about his book. And I would hand him the cigarette at times, and he would continue talking. And then each time it went down by the time he came to take a puff, and then he'd light it again. But then continue talking, and then come to take a puff. And again, it was out again. He’d light it, and then continue talking. And then he just gives it back to me, he wasn't really smoking. Again, things you don't notice in advance only after the fact. And at some point, I noticed, though, that I can't understand what he's talking about. Not because the words he's saying, aren't words that make sense, but rather, there's no logical connection between a moment ago, he was telling me about the book he's writing. And now he's throwing to me these random words from the field of Political Science and International Relations, which is the field of study that I was majoring in at the time in the university, and I told him about this during the car ride. And he's just throwing these random, like, you know, it's because of the Colonialization of the Post-Modern Economic Effects of and like, nothing made sense. But it was words that was supposedly comfortable for me. And I was trying to focus in and listen to what exactly he's saying and see, okay, maybe I'm just like, not following his train of thought. But once I listened more I realized, yeah, no, there's no logic here. I'm not even sure how long we've been sitting here. And like, everything started feeling very misty. And I said, what time is it? And he didn't answer you continue talking and was talking is very low, calm, monotonic voice. And I said, I think it's late and I should go. And he, again, didn't react, continue talking. He had his train of thought, and he was going with it. And I realized, okay, I feel like I'm losing consciousness. I feel like I'm losing grasp of reality, and like, something was really off. And I was scared that if I stood up and left, maybe he would try to stop me because something wasn't adding up. And I was starting to recognize, Okay, wait, I was the only one smoking. All of the things were slowly falling into place. So, I slowly got up. And I said, you know, I'm going to go. And he said, what we're having such a nice time. Don't want to stay? I was like, No, I'm going to head out. And I started slowly walking towards the door keeping like, half of my body turned towards him, half towards the stairs, because I was scared that if I turned around, he would grab me from behind, or try to stop me in a way that would cause me to trip over myself on the staircase. So, I was walking, consciously, out while slowly trying to create more distance between us without alarming him by running. And he's like, wait, I have to give you money for the car. I'm like, No it's really fine. It's all good. And I like open the door, and walked out. The second I left the door of his house, I ran to my car, which was parked like at the bottom of the street, right around the corner from his building. And I saw him from the corner of my eye running after me. And I ran even faster into the car. I locked the door, started the car and drove away as fast as I possibly could. While I was doing this, I called my mom. And I said, Mom, I've been drugged. I'm heading to a safe place where I'm going to call an ambulance and going to go to a hospital. Meet me there. And as I'm talking to her, I feel like I'm losing grip on reality. Like, everything is fading, and everything's blurry. And like, I can feel how I'm fighting to stay away, stay conscious. While I was really feeling like this heavy cloud coming over me and trying to like, wipe me out completely. And I had to stay with my mom on the phone actually, in order to drive because I thought like if I didn't talk out loud, I would lose it right then and then what's in the middle of the street. So, I drove to the side. It was about 500 meters away from his house, maybe a kilometer, and I called an ambulance. Now, I have EMT training in my past. I used to volunteer on an ambulance on a regular basis and, and I know how ambulances are supposed to work. And the ambulance that showed up was horrible. They didn't want to take me to the hospital. The paramedic who is the highest ranking official in the ambulance, sat down on the side lit a cigarette and started laughing and saying to his friend, Forget it. She's drunk or crazy. And I'm begging them in tears telling them you don't understand. I've been drugged, and I need to get to the hospital. And they would just, they thought I was insane. Now one of the first things that I always taught people, when I was teaching them how to volunteer and ambulance was, you are the first person that someone in need is going to meet. The most important thing you have to do is be there for them. Imagine how you would want your grandmother to be treated or your parents or you yourself and do that to the patient that you're meeting. Meaning that you are the first person who is really going to give assistance and, in a time of real dire need. But the way this team acted was so far from it, that I was sure that I concocted in my mind the fact that I actually was able to get out of his house. And I started thinking that I'm actually still at his house, and he's raping me. But in order to not feel what's going on, I am playing in my mind a safe scenario that I know from my past as an EMT, that is trying to overcome the trauma that I'm experiencing live. And it's not really happening. Now, they didn't want to take me away to the hospital, and this is going on. I ended up like trying to call another ambulance. But there's only one Ambulance Service really that people use and it's out. And I told him, I'm here with the ambulance, and they don't want to take me to the hospital. I need them to take me. And so thankfully, the person at the call center told them, okay, you're there, you're with her take her to the hospital. Now, besides this traumatic treatment that I had, from their side, they never once mentioned that there's a hospital in Jerusalem that actually has a, we call it an Acute Care Center. It's what it's used for people who are brought to the hospital with fear of sexual assault of any kind. The staff there also undergoes professional training in how to treat sexual assault victims. But also, they have legal standing, that allows the testimony and the tests and the entire process to actually be acceptable in court, which is a very important thing to note. So, they never mentioned that the hospital that takes care of that is not the one they took me to. Instead, they said, Yeah, we'll take you to [a different hospital], which is the one I told my mom to meet me at. And that's also what I was thinking. But I didn't know that there's this alternative and how important it was at the time. And again, I'll remind you, they didn't want to take me to the hospital to begin with. So, they brought me to the hospital, and the entire call light I was like, holding on for dear life to not lose consciousness. Because again, I was scared that I'm not actually being saved. But rather I'm still being attacked. And I needed to see a face I didn't recognize before I could let go. And I remember the second they brought me into the ICU, I saw a nurse walking, although I'd never seen him before in my life and that's it. Everything else went dark. That's where I lost consciousness. My mom and cousin apparently were there to meet the ambulance team. They got there already beforehand. And my mom acted as my advocate throughout the entire process because I was unconscious for about nine hours. And she told them, we think she's been drugged. We need blood tests and urine tests. And she said give me the samples, I’ll take them to a private lab. Apparently, that's not acceptable either. Because in order for it to have legal standing, it has to go through a lab that is recognized. At the beginning, the doctors were skeptical, they didn't put me in a room to take care or treat me. They rather just left me lying in the hallway with hope that my symptoms would pass because they, too, thought that I was you know, drunk or under different kinds of influence. Yeah, so that's about what really happened to me during this time, which really caused me to be much more aware of everything that's going on. There were a lot of mistakes that happened though, also in regards to the way the ambulance conducted itself. As I said, the hospital itself my mom pleaded and begged with them, please give me the test. They didn't agree. Then they said we will send them to a different hospital, which is the only Hospital in Israel that has a lab that can really check for, like drugs that has legal standing. And they said okay, we're going to send her blood test and her urine tests to that hospital and follow up with us. Now, there were policemen who came already before I woke up. The second, I gave the call really for an ambulance, the duty is to alert policemen and have them come to the hospital and collect testimony from the victims. They were standing around waiting for me to return to consciousness. My mom gave them my testimony and they said if she wants to come and open a case, then tell her that we already have the complaint filed in and it will be attached to that. And then, after I was released from the hospital, I went immediately to file a complaint, because this is a sad truth, and I think most places, but in Israel it’s know that if you don't give a complaint within the first 24 hours, the chances of it being treated as seriously go down by about 70%. There are many cases that people come in only later, because of the trauma and fear of dealing with it. And the difficulty of really coming in and giving testimony of whatever case it is. People many times don't do it immediately. But there have been a lot of cases in which when you actually come within the first 24 hours, it's treated much more seriously. And it's given a higher priority. I wouldn't say top priority, because unfortunately, sexual assault victims aren't top priority. But it's given somewhat more of a higher one. And also, that when I gave testimony, they told me, "Okay, we need to get your lab results from the hospital to be able to see which drugs were in your system. That's going to be a key part of us continuing with looking into your case, and what happened here. And we are going to let you know if there's any change or development in your case. And it has two years until it's closed automatically.” But they guaranteed me that I'd get updates. Now I have to say for the policeman's credit, the person who interrogated me, who I gave my testimony to was very, very calm; very sensitive. I was terrified, because you hear all these stories of policemen or people who take witness that accuse you. Well, how are you acting? What are you wearing? What was the interactive beforehand, and I was happily surprised that my experience was actually a positive one. And he guaranteed me that they'd be in touch with me. Two weeks later, I called the hospital to see if there was any news in regards to my test results. And I found out that they never sent my blood or urine samples to the hospital that can do the more advanced checks. Meaning the hospital that I was in does very, very basic toxin evaluation and blood and urine. They don't do the more advanced kinds. And they were supposed to send it to this hospital that has a special kind of testing, that also gives it legal standing, and also really has the ability to look for it. And they told me they never did. I call the doctor who was taking care of me and the ICU and I asked if I could have it. And he said what are you talking about? I told them to send it and he was shocked when I told him they didn't. And then he said one moment, I'm going to check something, wait on the line. And he calls me back and he says, I'm sorry, they didn't send it. And I said, “Why? You said that we need it. You said that you guys don't have the ability to at the police told me that we have to have these results in order to do that.” He said, I know. I told them to, they didn't. I'm sorry, I don't know why. So, this was heartbreaking. I mean, I was waiting these two weeks when I was already, you know, pretty much ready to give up on life and hardly getting out of bed at four o'clock in the afternoon. I was waiting for these results. And suddenly I find out that they when I was sent. That was the beginning, I guess, of what really got me involved in this. Because my tests will never send, I started looking into it and researching what usually happens. What's the status of rape drug victims in Israel, and how are they treated. And I found out that many times, the tests aren't even sent to the hospital that needs to have it. Not every hospital has an Acute Room. As I mentioned. Jerusalem specifically, we have three hospitals here. So actually, like you have a variety and you have a choice to go there if you wanted to. But there are other cities that don't have a hospital that has an acute room at all. And even the hospital that I was in who doesn't have the right room to treat me, they were supposed to send my test to the other hospital, which is the only hospital that has the lab to check for these kinds of drugs, and they didn't. And that's something that happens in many, many cases. And the more I looked into it, I found out how common unfortunately it is. There was a journalist in it, who wanted to really discuss this matter. And she reached out to me due to a Facebook post that I wrote seven months later in which I wanted to tell the world what happened to me to raise awareness to let people know that it's not just something you read about in newspapers that happens on the other side of the world, but it's happening here, and happening to people you know, and it's happening to an unassuming woman just gave a ride to a guy and thought that you know, we're talking it's all good so we can go have a smoke on his roof without anything happening. And that caused:
A) A lot of people to also reach out to tell me stories that happened to them. Not necessarily about rape drugs; about rape, about sexual assault, about the depression that came after. About trying to deal with life. About the post trauma that comes up in dates on interactions. I found that this really opened up a can of worms, where people were sharing with me, I was sharing with others and, and I really found out how, unfortunately common not an assault is because that I already know, unfortunately. But the terrible treatment that the system has towards victims of sexual assault of all kinds. So, through my Facebook posts, I started working on legislation and policy changes. And we had our first somewhat successful policy change in December 2018. Where they released a policy that dictates that the hospitals must treat all victims who show signs of a rape drug, according to a specific process, and really take the test that are relevant, and send it to the relevant labs. Go through everything that's supposed to, in theory, a wonderful policy. Unfortunately, now we're finding out that it's not being implemented as it should. And so now, two years later, I am working on getting the implementation of that policy. But I'm happy to say that in these four years, the policy was written. So that changed, and also hospitals stopped throwing out rape drug kits, which was also a huge, huge achievement that we have worked very hard on, because I couldn't stand the fact that anyone else would be treated the way I was. So, there's still a lot more to go. But it's an uphill battle. Things are changing slowly, slowly. But there's a lot to do there. And as time goes on, I just see more and more how lacking the system can be. And when it comes to this matter, which I'm sure you know, you come and you're looking for like that lifeline to save you and help you and protect you. And having the system turn their back on you is horrible. And it can be even worse than not trying to get help at all. So, I'm working to change that.
 
Marissa: You brought up so many good points. Thank you, first and foremost for sharing your story. Because it is heartbreaking. When your first line of defense, looks at you laughs and pulls out a cigarette because they just don't care or they don't believe you. I feel like that's even more horrifying than being told we don't believe you. Because in that person's behavior in the paramedic’s behavior, they basically shut you down and didn't even have the Kahunas right, like they didn't even have the guts to tell you, you we don't believe you. There's like, Oh, she's drunk, let's just this is break time for us now. And that's so disheartening, especially when you're going through something so traumatic, that the first person you meet that's supposed to help you just doesn't care, and then to be continuously shot down by every person you come into contact with. I mean, man, you are, you're a tough cookie, I am so inspired by you. So, thank you for doing what you're doing and changing the legislation.
 
Tiferet: Thank you. I appreciate that. And thank you for what you're doing. Spreading the word is definitely, without a doubt, very, very important.
 
Marissa: Thank you very much. But it's people like you who are doing the real changes. So, thank you. Let's talk a little bit about rape culture in Israel. So I, in the states, rape culture is a mixed bag, right? Little boys grow up being taught, you're not allowed to cry, you have to be tough. So that manifests in anger and rage and they don't know how to reach out, they act aggressively. Not all men I'm not trying to generalize, but basically, rape culture is very widely ignored for children. And it manifests in aggressive, abusive behavior later. What is Israel's rape culture Like?
 
Tiferet: Honestly, I think that when you look at rape culture, I wouldn't necessarily look at the fact that men aren't necessarily, sorry little boys aren't necessarily taught to connect to their feelings and express them in a way that they that they feel comfortable with. It's also the fact that men and young boys are taught the way women interact is fake or they're playing a game. When you go on a date with someone and she says no, at the beginning when you try to kiss her, that's just part of the game. Okay, so she's paying hard to get. I had a guy who told me and this was when I was, I want to say 22 or 23. He was 32, I think. Maybe 31. He told me there isn't a woman who doesn't give, there's a man doesn't know how to take. Sorry, it’s a rough translation from Hebrew. But the point was, “There's no such thing as a woman who isn't willing to sleep with you. It's a matter of are you a man doesn't know how to take it.” And I was horrified Because this was four years ago, five years ago. And that was a statement that he saw no problem in saying, and the bigger problem was that it's a sentence that he's heard from other people as well. And its other men who feel this way, as well. So, there's very much that culture of, you know, did you nail her? No, did you get in her pants? Did you play hard to get? And that's something that's still very, very present, and very, very common. And I think that's the bigger problem, where you're teaching men that they should read the signs that the women are giving in the wrong way. And honestly, I'm not disregarding women's part in this also. Women are also taught, don't give in immediately. You can't sleep with a guy on the first date — that turns you into a tramp. There's nothing wrong with sleeping with a guy on your first date if you want to, and if he wants to, and if you both are supportive and respectful and connecting and present in the moment. But like, when it comes to the interactions in between men and women, I feel like we're still teaching these 100-year-old rules of how to do things. And there's something very, very lacking in, Okay, well, much more developed and connected to our emotions and to complexities of life. And don't talk with your friends, or you’re with, especially when you see a group of male friends. Don't talk with your group of male friends about that woman's ass, or how sexy she is, or the fact that everyone has gotten a piece of him. And that's something that for some reason isn't, you know, that I like, and I don't know, if I'm generalizing here, and I don't want to, but it's something very possessive And…
 
Marissa: It's aggressive.
 
Tiferet: And unfortunately, it still is something that you hear on conversations. I think people feel less comfortable about making these comments now in the presence of women, which sometimes they used to do more. But it still might happen between a group of men. You know, in a Facebook group; in a WhatsApp group. I had a friend who told me a few, like two or three years ago that she found that there's this Facebook group that men post naked women. Have pictures of naked women that are sent to them, whether it's by their girlfriends, or by one-night stands or that they find online. And it's disgusting. Whether it's a woman who sent you a picture of her naked by choice, that's fine. But then you're taking it and sharing it with a group of other people who have absolutely no rights to it. And so, there's something very much in the culture itself, I would say that is a little more than a little problematic. A lot problematic. And then there's also and this I can't emphasize enough, the system that doesn't take care of it as they should. For example, a few days ago, there was a case of a man who attacked his wife and her beat up and stabbed her. He was horrible. And he was really taking out all of his anger and aggression on her in the worst possible way, in front of the one-and-a-half-year-old. And the judge decided that he doesn't want to release the name of the man, because he doesn't want to and these are his words, “Hurt his reputation." Now, this is a man who ruined his own reputation within a couple of hours, by beating up and stabbing his wife in front of his child. And the judge doesn't want to release his name because he's trying to protect his reputation?
 
Marissa: I just had a horrible, a horrible flashback to Brock Turner. Did you guys hear about that case at all?
 
Tiferet: Yeah, I mean things travel.
 
Marissa: Yeah. I mean, that sounds like Brock Turner. Oh, well, we don't want to ruin his life. He already ruined his life when he, you know, stabbed his wife. Brock Turner ruined his life when he took an unconscious girl and raped her behind the garbage can. Like that was an action that determines and defines the person's personality.
 
Tiferet: Exactly. But for some reason, when it comes to sexual assault, or rape, there's much more room for temporary insanity. It seems that people don't like to claim temporary insanity, except for one come to these cases. Then it’s like, “Oh, no, he wasn't thinking. He was under the influence of alcohol." Like if he was driving drunk and killed someone you wouldn't treat it that way. But when it comes to sexual assault or rape, oh, no, you know, it's understandable. It happens. Sometimes it's very dismissive. And when the system that is supposed to protect you is dismissive, you can't really expect other people to act other ways.
 
Marissa: I'm so glad that you brought that up. When I lived in Israel, I lived in Herzliyya. And we would go to Herzilyya Pituach and go out to, you know, clubs and bars and whatever. And I noticed that guys, like you had mentioned before, we're so much more willing to come up right behind me put their hands on my waist and pull me into them to dance on me, even if I didn't know them. And, and when I would try and get away from them or move and be kind of polite about it, there was really no change, right? They’d just pull me back in.
 
Tiferet: Right. Because you're playing the game, you're not supposed to give it immediately.
 
Marissa: Right. And I didn't, I mean, coming from America, I didn't know that. So, I learned very quickly that the only way at least in 2010, the only way to get them off you, was to elbow them really hard in the ribs. And if I didn't elbow them really hard in the ribs, they would keep pulling me back in. So, I mean, it makes so much sense now that you said it like that, that it's a game. You know, oh, I'm supposed to pull away because I really want to dance with you, when that's not truly the case. And that element of consent doesn't really matter.
 
Tiferet: Right, for some reason we don’t, and I think this is really a huge lacking, we don't teach enough respect for — well I think it goes both ways. Men aren't taught enough respect. When you hear a no, because they're taught, they're playing the game. And women aren't taught enough, don't play it hard to get. Be straightforward about what you want. There's nothing wrong with choosing this way or the other way. But be straightforward about it. Don't play games.
 
Marissa: Yes, absolutely. So, let's move on to around 2018. Right, the #MeToo movement happened here. And it spread really fast around the world, right? You guys felt the me to movement by you? Right?
 
Tiferet: Definitely. Yes, that was global.
 
Marissa: So, did anything change after 2018?
 
Tiferet: So actually, speaking of the system that's supposed to protect you. So, another article that I participated in was, after MeToo got really, really strong. There was this huge social movement that came from Facebook, where people started sharing their MeToo stories, which happened also in the States, I know. And then in Israel, there was also a MeToo — that I was also assaulted or attacked in whatever way once; and then there was also, MeToo — I turned to the system for help, and I was turned away. And then they did a front-page article on one of the Unwind Edits — it's one of the leading newspapers in Israel. We were a front page spread, they bought six of us to interview about, it was really because of the MeToo, you were attacked, you complained, and then you were turned away. And they did a huge bed of like four or five pages in the weekend newspaper, centerfold, about the six of us who came complained, gave testimony, and then were turned away. And how the system turned their back on us. And that was also a huge thing that MeToo did here, which was positive. And this in the sense of shedding more light on the way the police and the hospitals and the court system acts in regards to sexual assault victims. So, there was also a change in regards to sharing stories of what happened, and also a change in regards to, how was I treated by the system? How did the police treat me? How did hospitals treat me? How did the court system treat me. That started really, I would say, October 2018 and it's only been getting stronger. And specifically now due to the case in Eilat, it got much stronger? The volume in which people are crying out and sharing their side has risen immensely.
 
Marissa: So, let's talk about that. I'm really glad that things are getting better there. Or at least the protocols are tightening up a little bit, so that survivors feel more supported. We're still fighting that battle here, too. But I feel like we are a little bit further along than Israel might be. I don't know if that's rude to say. I didn't mean it that way.
 
Tiferet: No, that’s probably fair. I would say that the social awareness has gotten higher. I don't know that the actual system has gotten much better. But we're working on that as well. Definitely. We're working on that.
 
Marissa: Good, because that's so important. So, let's talk about what happened this year. So, this is how I heard it and I could be wrong. So please correct me if I'm wrong. But the story that we were told was that there was a girl in Eilat who was gang raped. And that was it. That's all we got. So, I don't know what happened after, as far as her healing. But then it's telling us that the rape culture in Israel was being overturned. And there was like a lot of people that were painting over misogynistic phrases, and pictures, and statues, or whatever things that were around Israel, that were misogynistic, were being taken down. Is that accurate?
 
Tiferet: So actually, I didn't hear this side of taking down things that have to do with Israel. I'm sorry about that. What happened was, and I have to say it was a bit of a mess, because also, here information was released in pieces. And the information at the beginning was vague, to say the least. But it started by there was a gang rape a 16-year-old girl with 30 men and that's what most people heard. Exactly. Now. That's what's going on. And for about a week, that's what was on the headlines of every single newspaper, and every single news article out there. A 16-year-old girl was raped by 30 men. And then, you know, the next day, they said, “Oh, it wasn't men, it was some men and some young boys.” And they started trying to understand exactly what's going on but for about a week, we thought it was really 30 men. And what you saw all over Facebook was people crying out. How is this possible? This is a sign of lacking for us as a people. Culturally, we did something wrong if we reached the point where a 16-year-old girl is in Eilat, and is raped by 30 men. And it was really crying of outrage from every single corner. And then about a week later, it was released, “Oh, it wasn't 30 men. It was 10 or about 10.” And then that was I mean, as I say, it's all horrible. It's all awful. When I say interesting, I don't mean in the positive way. But then there was a very interesting change, where suddenly you saw some people writing, “Oh, it's only 10 men. Not that it's good, but it's not 30.” And then you saw other people who came out with declarations of, “To you who said, the difference between 30, and the difference between 10 is meaningful, you’re part of the problem.” And that really brought up even, actually, a larger wave of awareness because they said it doesn't matter if it's 30 or if it's 10. It shouldn't be one to begin with. And, yes, if we're looking at gang rape in this sense, it's horrible no matter what. And there were so many cries of outrage. And people really started posting about it. And there were a bunch of different socialites, whether it's actors, singers, or different relevant social entities, that came up with their own videos saying it was men. This was actually, there were two of them that came out, they are very, very powerful, where they talked about, what you hear as a man in your background. “Now, what does that mean about you as a person? If you actually listen to those people who are telling you, No, did you? Did you nail her? How far did you go? She says, No, then don't listen, try harder…” Like it was it was very, it was done very, very well and very powerfully. And they said, it's our responsibility. It's my responsibility. And these men who are public figures, and very meaningful in the cultural life in Israel, and they came out and said, it's my job to change this. It's your job to change this. What's going on here is something that has to do with us as a people. And it's a horrible sign of our culture and we have to make the changes on a personal level. So, it was very, very negative and it brought out the very, very positive and fruitful results and how the board reacted to it. Unfortunately, we just had this case a few days ago, where a man stabbed his wife. So…
 
Marissa: I'll bet that that's not the first time that he has been aggressive or violent to her. In fact, I'd bet my life on it. Because stuff like that to pattern that grows and grows. Right? Exactly. This was just the final straw. This was the most recent explosion in a series of explosions. So, I'm looking at an article. It's from November 2019. So, it's a little bit old and it's before all of this social media hype. But it said that, 90% of rape cases in Israel are closed without indictment, and that the numbers of people turning to rape crisis centers for assistance has increased by 40% in the last five years. And it's saying that the number of calls or complaints filed to rape crisis centers in 2018 was 51,000 And it was 40,000 in 2013. So, do you think, as an Israeli, do you think that is because everything is starting to put itself together and processes and protocols are being put in place or do you think it's Because it's happening more?
 
Tiferet: I think it's because people feel more supported to share what happened to them. Meaning it's not necessarily things that are happening more. But rather, cases that in the past weren't necessarily brought to light, are now being brought to light. So, I have a friend who due to what happened in Eilat, decided that she's sick and tired of the way things are being dealt with when it comes to sexual assault, and rape in Israel, and she started posting her personal stories. And she said, I'm going to start with the story that most people know about me. That I was raped when I was 14, by someone who was 21 at the time, and she came to the police and complained about it. I guess, nine years later. And the police closed the case, because after researching and looking into the details, they declared that that he didn't really know that she was under age, and it wasn't done through malice. And she proves, and then this is something that you bought out through Facebook; she proves how they knew. He knew that she was 14, because she told him specifically in these messages, they met in a chat room. And he had no problem with going out with her when she was 14 and doing what he did. And so that was the first story she told. And then she started sharing other stories that happened to her. About the fact that when she was a teenager she used to babysit for this family. And after a while her parents were going through a divorce. So, she was going through a bit of a hard time personally. And she liked spending time with this couple who she would babysit their children when they were out. At some point she said they started coming home a little bit earlier. And we just started hanging out the three of us. And then at some point, the husband would invite friends over and she started hanging out with this group of our friends. I remind you, she's 15 at the time babysitting, his children, and he's around 30 years old. And she said that apparently it started becoming a thing that they would invite her to join when they would hang out as a group of friends. And then she was invited by just one of them to hang out. And they ended up sleeping together. And then she was invited by another and it became this thing that they sort of, sorry for terminology, passing her around. And none of them at any point, thought there was a problem here. That she's a 15-year-old girl. Now she, as I mentioned, her parents were going through a divorce. It was a hard time. She felt that she was getting attention, and she felt that she was loved. And she said like, on the one hand she didn't understand really why they're treating her like an adult fully. But on the other hand, she felt very grown up because they were treating her like an adult. And at some point, one of the wives found out what was going on and had a hissy fit at her husband and caused everything to blow up, thank God. And they stopped doing this. And then she started revealing though all of these other cases. And she has like these nine different stories of men who took advantage of her. One of them who came to pick up a date, and they were in the car alone, and he raped her. Another guy who was her neighbor and she had a mouse in her house and she was scared. So, she asked if she could stay there while the exterminator was supposed to come. And then when his girlfriend was in the shower, he walked over and grabbed her breast. And there's so many stories that she's just revealing because she says, I'm sick and tired of the fact that people don't tell their stories, or people behave this way. And the system keeps turning their back on us. And that's also something that you see happening more. People feeling socially comfortable to share their stories, because even if the police aren't fully doing their job, or the court system isn't fully doing its job, they are getting social support. And this way, the victim from Eilat, a different friend of mine started a fundraiser for her, for legal aid due to this. And they reached their goal of, I think, half a million within 24 hours. And then for this woman who was just stabbed by her husband, a different friend started for her also a fund for legal support, and they reach their goal of a million, I think also within like three days. So, you see social media as much more support and much more being done. And the system… It's a bureaucratic system. That's a little difficult to change, but I do, I do believe that it's slowly going to get better.
 
Marissa: That's incredible. Well, you're making amazing strides and the people who you're working with and your friends are also doing such incredible things. I mean, thank you guys for your hard work and I know it can't be easy. You're basically fighting the Empire. Right? You're fighting the head honchos, but you guys are doing such incredible work. So, thank you and just keep fighting, you know?
 
Tiferet: Thank you. Thank you as well. Marissa, you’re helping to also share, and put out the voices and the information.  Yes, we’re all doing this together. And it's our pleasure to try and make the world actually a better place.
 
Marissa: So, my last question for you, I ask everyone who comes on this show, what advice would you give to survivors who are going through the healing process? Who are trying to get help and break their silence after sexual assault?
 
Tiferet: Wow, that's a good one. So, I mean, look, it's sad to say, but Sexual assault is not a new thing. Or something that like my case of being drugged, that wasn't the first time something like that happened to me. I mean, the numerous cases throughout all of my years, starting when I was five years old, that I've been experiencing things like this. But when something comes, that really breaks you, and kills a piece of your soul, which is completely and totally what I felt, it's a small achievement, that sort of Wow, you. I remember thinking, at the time, when I was, again, completely and totally depressed, how to getting out of bed or quit my jobs, stopped University, even though I was right in the middle of doing very well. The fact that I got out of bed at four o'clock in the afternoon was like, Wow, look at that. And the fact that a Sunday would come by, oh, a new weekend would arrive, I'd be like, Whoa, I didn't think like, it's not even that I didn't think I would live but, in a way, I didn't think I would live to see another Sunday. And I really needed something to, to hold on to that was more meaningful than you know, “It's going to be okay,” because I knew it was going to be okay. And one day I was going to be passive. But I was having trouble seeing how that would ever happen. So, I needed something more feasible. And I, one night, it was like, four o'clock in the morning, which also something that happened. I would spend most of my waking hours at night when the rest of the world was asleep, because then I felt most safe and most peace, somewhat at peace, with a quiet world. So, I wonder my bedroom, and I started writing on the wall, my wish list. And it was my list of the wishes that I want to complete At some point, in order to, I guess, make myself happy. It wasn't even happy, because be happy was the first thing on the list. So, it wasn't even be happy. But it was these small goals that I was hoping I could achieve in the next, you know, foreseeable future. And that I felt could help me pull myself out of the hole that I was in. So, you know, it was the first one, as I said, was be happy. And the second one was breathing easily again. And then it also went into other things that were, whether they were they developed due to what I was going to — with eating disorders that went completely and totally out of hand; And so, I had really, as one of my wishes, eat without guilt, or stop throwing up. And I also had things like, be a positive change in society. Not let my own feelings about what people expect of me dictate who I'm going to be. So, there was some really big things there. But there were also little things like, dream Sweet dreams again. And what's amazing, and still to this day, I love looking at that one. It's still relevant. And there are times in my life that I looked at it and I said, Wow, I completed it. And there are times that I said, No, I'm not there yet. Even though last time I looked at it, I felt like I completed most of the things I put on that list. But it's interesting to see how things that were very much relevant then, meet me in a very different place now. And I want to say more positively relevant, because then it was really from a heart place of smile again, or wake up in a good mood. And now it's a much calmer and more settled place. So, I guess what I would give us as advice is set small goals and large ones, and really aim to achieve them. Whether it's in a month or in a year. But I found that setting those small goals in a timeframe that is not you know, one day I'll be happy, but rather much more current day, helps to achieve them succeed.
 
Marissa: I love that. Oh my gosh. I challenge anybody listening to this episode, to make your own list of things that will make you happy or things that you want to overcome and put it somewhere like on your wall next to your bed or on the mirror in your bathroom, so you can see it every day and rate where you are. Oh my gosh, Tiferet that was incredible. Thank you so much for everything you're doing and for being here, and supporting survivors all over the world.
 
Tiferet: Thank you My pleasure.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse.  Today, I have Traci Sharpe, again. Returning guest! Gosh, I’m so excited.  Traci Sharpe hosts amazing educational workshops about how to manage yourself after trauma.  It’s about looking at things in retrospect, so people can move forward and heal. She also focuses on how People of Color are less likely to be believed when reporting abuse and assault. Welcome back Traci. I’m excited to have you back.
 
Traci: Hi, Marissa! Thanks for having me back again.
 
Marissa: Of course! Oh my gosh.  Okay, so let’s dive in.  When you and I were talking last time, it came up afterwards that you work with people of color.  Or you, as a person of color, experienced a lot of backlash and a lot of disbelief and doubts when you were reporting.  So, can you tell us about that?
 
Traci: Yes.  And thank you, before I even begin, for having this very difficult conversation. So thank you for bringing this to the forefront.  You know, as I’ve said, my incident began in 2013. And as a woman of color, I followed the process because there are policies in place to report up the chain of command. And I was told that because I was a divorced, woman of color, a single-mom at that point,  that I would not be believed over a decorated officer.
 
Marissa: That’s disgusting. So because of your skin color, that had a negative affect on your report and your wellbeing.  That’s not fair
 
Traci: It isn’t fair. And I have found that this is something that happens.  I, in the beginning, took it personally.  I was thinking, well, why me? I’ve never had a negative review, or negative performance review of any kind. I’d like to think that I have a pretty decent portfolio.  And so, that really took me by surprise, because it wasn’t about the actual incident.  My skin color became the transgression.  And it also became the thing that negated the validity of my report.  Because of the way I looked.
 
Marissa: Did you experience anything like ridiculous backlash, or something that was worse specifically due to your skin color, do you think?
 
Traci: That was all of it.  I was, in the beginning, when I tried to come forward.  Like I said in my past episode, I tried to come forward 3 different times.  So this isn’t like a one-and-done. I tried to report 3 different time.  And each time, I was told there was an issue because of the way I looked.  One of the things that we have to be mindful of with the perpetrators and their enablers, is they use little things against you.  So, when I talked before, when we spoke, I had spoken to you about gaslighting. And so, I can remember one person saying, with everyone PTing like crazy, I need to get myself back in the gym because I’m getting fat. It’s just a matter of conversation.  And that was used against me.  So I looked, and if you see any pictures of me, or even if you know me, then you’d know that I’ve never been overweight.  But that was that one thing that they picked up.  And there would be other little things. Like, my children had to be picked up by six o’clock.  So, those were the self-limiting things. Like, I was told, “Someone else has a nanny, so why don’t you have a nanny?”  You know, typically, who has a nanny? You know what I mean? So, it was just little things like that, that added up to becoming a big problem.
 
Marissa: That’s disgusting. So, they did studies across colleges and had a white woman and a woman of color tell almost the exact same story of assault, and then the participants would have to decide whether or not they believed the story.  And I think across the board, 90-something percent of people believed the white woman.  And most of the people, I don’t remember the exact percentage, I think it was close to 80%, believed that the person of color was lying.  Just based on their skin color.
 
Traci: Absolutely.  And I think what happens with people of color… you know, when you’re hired in these organizations, there’s a honeymoon phase.  So, you feel welcomed and it’s hard to say, and I don’t want to say I was a tokenized hire because  I don’t think that would be fair, but that’s what I began to feel like afterwards.  And, I will tell you, even in presenting, because I am a platform trainer, and even getting up in front of audiences, and teaching for the military, there are times that I have been asked  not to participate in my own projects. And I hate to say this, but I was told that I wasn’t a part of the Blonde Ambitions Corp. And there were two other individuals there who were blonde haired, blue eyes, thin and I was actually asked not to participate. And it’s disgusting.  So you go from the honeymoon phase, to then reality sets in. And so, you start to point out transgressions, or the micro-aggressions.  And what’s gong on with this? I’m the one who put this entire project together, why am I not presenting? And so, I was told that it looks better to have someone that fits the mold and I didn’t fit the mold. 
 
Marissa: That’s disgusting. 
 
Traci: Yes, it really is.  And these are the things we fight.  And this is why I’m so vocal about it.  I know that there are other people who have experienced these same transgressions, and these same repetitive injuries, and people live their lives not speaking up about it.
 
Marissa: And that has to be so painful. Living your life feeling like everything is against you.  I mean, I can’t even imagine that.  I’m a white woman that came from a sheltered home. So I have no idea what that feels like.
 
Traci: Yes, it’s difficult. It is. Because then there is the denial of racism.  Once you bring it up, then there’s the denial.  And then there’s, “Wait a minute Traci, that didn’t happen that way.” And I’m saying, explain.  Because if you help me understand, then I can explain to others what going  on and we can still do really great work here.  But that’s when the targets come into play.  And then it is, “Well, we needed someone to add something else,” when we didn’t need them in the beginning.  And I want to point out that I was the purchase card holder.  The human rights protection official.  There were so many other collateral duties I had that other people didn’t have.  But they didn’t look like me.  So they were the ones that were put out in the forefront.  There have been others who weren’t even trained.  They weren’t platform trainers, who have trained in my place because of the way they looked.  And it is.  It’s really disgusting. 
 
Marissa: I’m so sorry that you went though that, and probably still go through that. That’s so not okay.  And I wish there were better words that weren’t just a strong of obscenities. 
 
Traci: No, there aren’t.  But I think we need to be honest and have the conversations, which is why I’m stepping out and talking about it.  And you know, what happens is, we go and get these educations, and we get all these certifications, and specialties, so when we present a portfolio, it looks a certain way.  And unfortunately, sometimes the view of what the person having that portfolio should look like, it doesn’t match up.
 
Marissa: But that’s a preconceived notion. You can’t identify what a person looks like based on their accolades.  I mean, you’d probably never think that I looked the way I look if you saw my portfolio.  You’d probably think I was like, a 40 year old woman with wrinkles and 12 kids.  I mean, you just, you can’t judge somebody like that.  And that’s the problem in our society, in my very humble opinion. We have these dumb, preconceived notions based on stereotypes.
 
Traci: Yes. yes. And so in addition to fighting the sexual harassment, the sexual assault, and all of the other sexual misconduct and transgressions across the board, this is an added layer. So, it isn’t just the offense.  There are so many caveats to it. So, it isn’t just one fight.
 
Marissa: You are a champion for continuing to fight and continuing to speak out.  Thank you.  And keep shouting this out loud, because this is the kind of dumb stuff that needs to end.  It needs to be silenced.  We need to stop assigning believability to a race or a color.  That’s garbage.
 
Traci: Right. I agree 100%. The thing for me is, as a mature woman, I know that there are so many others coming up behind us, and they need this.  This is a blueprint for them to be able to, just really decipher what’s going on around them.  And ask those questions. And document, document, document.  Sometimes, it helps, other times it doesn’t. But, it will definitely help that person know that they aren’t crazy in this.  A lot of times, and I speak a lot about the gaslighting and the false information, and the, “Well, you know… it wasn’t that way…” But actually it was.  And it’s okay to say that.  It’s okay that you’re failing, and then we need to challenge these beliefs.  And that’s where the issue lies.  Let’s challenge.  Let’s challenge those beliefs, and let’s say, we don’t know what the reception will be.  We don’t know whether or not someone like me can go in, and I’d like to think I’m a pretty decent trainer.  I’ve received great feedback across the board.  And I’ve been doing this for about 15 years now.  And I’ve not had one person have a complaint.  And then, to get to this position, and to have someone judge me just based on what their preference is, because I guarantee you, it wasn’t everyone else’s preference, I would have been harassed the way that I was.
 
Marissa: Thank you for building this blueprint.  You’re doing a huge part in changing the world and changing the way people perceive people and professionals.  I mean, it’s disgusting that this is something that we even NEED to talk about.
 
Traci: It is. It really is.   But we know that it is far reaching.  It isn’t unique unto me. This is the experience.  We have to change the narrative around all of it. 
 
Marissa: Around race. Around sexual assault. Around people of color who have been assaulted. Absolutely. 
 
Traci: Yes. Absolutely.
 
Marissa: Do you mind telling us a little bit about your workshops? I’m intrigued.
 
Traci: So what I do is, I limit them to 10 people.  I have a couple now that I’m doing.  One that has been really successful has been, working with women of color who have experienced sexual misconduct in the workplace.  So, I vet out the participants. I have to vet them because we really unpack some heavy stuff.  And the last thing you want to do is get into a workshop and feel like, either you’re not understood, or that someone is a spy, for lack of better words.  But that someone is in there and the intentions aren’t pure. And what I like to do is, speak to each persons experience.  Because we all have a voice, and there is nothing worse than being lost in translations, with everyone else’s story.  So, that’s why I limit it, my capacity is 10.  Personally, that’s about what I can handle.  I sometimes do 4-hour workshops, sometimes it’s 8-hours, depending on the content we’re covering. So, I cover everything from the actual experience itself, whether it's harassment or the assault.  And then we talk about how to unpack it, and how to reframe it.  And I never let anyone leave without resources.  So, one of the biggest things for me is, whoever participates in my workshops, they leave with a plan. And they can always touch back if we need to revisit it, or whatever.  But they have to leave with a plan to move forward.  Whether that is pursuing the EEO process, finding the right attorney to represent them, finding the right therapist, the right medical doctors.  Whether or not they need to follow up and do research on what medications will work for them, or whether it’s yoga or meditation.  Just making sure they have that information, understanding how it can benefit them, and having a plan.  And one of the biggest parts of the plan is not only having the resources, but having a strong, solid, support system. There are times when we say, “Oh, you know, I can call my mom. Or I can call my sister.” I really teach people how to realistically develop the support system they need.  Because someone loving you, like a parent or a friend or a significant other, it doesn’t always mean that they are able to support you in a way that you need to be supported.  So, that’s basically what I cover in all of the workshops.
 
 
Marissa: That’s amazing! Oh my gosh! So, not only are you helping them fight thought heir trauma, but you’re giving them a community, and you’re giving them a safety plan.  That’s phenomenal! Thank you for doing that.
 
Traci: Thank you for saying that. We have to.  One person at a time.
 
Marissa: I hope you understand the value of that.  People will go to therapy, leave therapy and immediately feel relieved.  Then the next day they wake up lost again.  So by, handing them, and creating with them — making them a big part of their safety plan — I think that that’s so powerful.
 
Traci: Yes, I think it is.  I think we teach victims how to be victims.  I like to teach victims how to be survivors. And if they are at the center of their own plan, then they are empowered to reach out and develop whatever it is they need. The resources are interchangeable. And that’s the thing.  It’s not a one-size fits all for everyone.
 
Marissa: Right. There’s no one right healing journey. It’s very personalized. Thank you so much.  So how can people get in touch with you about your workshops?
 
Traci: They can go to WhichNarrative.com.  It’s www.whichnarrative.com.  They can look over the website.  There are a few resources. I uploaded a few short videos. You know, just to let people know they aren’t alone, and some of the things they are experiencing, some of those visceral responses, are common, so people don’t feel like they’re wayyy out there by themselves.  To contact me on the website, there is a contact sheet they can fill out, and I get the information, and I respond within 24 hours.
 
Marissa: Thats amazing. Thank you for the service you’re doing for survivors, to help them heal. And thank you for speaking with me on this really difficult topic. 
 
Traci: You know, I think we have to. Because there are times when we feel like you’re experience is the only experience.  And no one will get it.  One of the things that I’ve spoken to you about, that I don’t mind sharing with the listeners is, well, my son was gung-ho and ready to join the military until all of this happened. And so, now his whole life has been impacted. He’s not comfortable, and I am not comfortable either, with his name, his last name being the same as mine. And my story being so highly publicized.  We know that there are some people out there that will hold that against him. So, he’s decided now that he’s going to go to college for two years, stay at home, and then he’ll transfer to a four year college.  But that wasn’t his plan.  And I think just letting people know that your whole life is impacted in ways that you never believe it will be. So, it isn’t just your life. It’s those that are attached to you as well.
 
Marissa: It’s not a one person issue.  It becomes a familial issue.  Right? Everybody that you are close to, who is impacted based on your trauma. The people who live in our home, who share you lineage. Everybody is affected.
Traci: Sure.  Even friends. Because if you think about it, when you suffer from anxiety or depression or PTSD, there are times where you turn down invitations.  I can remember a time that for months on end, not wanting to leave the house.  And so, where I was someone who was really social, and got out and did things; I hiked and I connected with friends; and just had a really great social life.  That all came to a screeching halt, because I just was incapable.  And thank god I found a wonderful therapist who let me know that it wasn’t me.  It isn’t you.  It’s what you’ve experienced, and we’ll work through this. And now, I’m able to clearly state my needs or my limitations. So, rather than saying, “I’m not going.” or ducking the phone call, I can say I’m not up to it today. I’m dealing with some things over here, and once I get through those, then sure, we can go have a glass of wine at the winery. 
 
Marissa: That’s amazing. And I’m glad that you’re able to set those boundaries. And for people listening, I hope you know that needing to take space and declining invitations, that’s normal and it’s okay.  Don’t ever feel guilty for needing that time and that space. And knowing how to set boundaries.
 
Traci: Yes, and being able to state it clearly.  Even if you can’t communicate it at that moment, being able to clear that up.  Because it’s empowering. 
 
Marissa: It’s like taking control of your life back. It’s one small step towards taking control.  Thank you so much, again for being here Traci.  You’re phenomenal, and you’re such a wealth of knowledge and information.  I’m so happy that we got connected.
 
Traci: I am too. Thank you Marissa. And don’t forget, if you need help out there, I’m at www.whichnarrative.com
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Rob: All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to a very special BCP / Healing From Emotional Abuse tag-team connection episode. First, before we get to our featured guest at this time, please welcome back, the ultimate tag partner Amazon award-winning multiple time bestseller my good friend Miss Marissa F. Cohen. Marissa, What's up over there? How you doing?
 
Marissa: Hey, everything's good in Chicago, we've got a heat wave. But other than that, we're fine.
 
Rob: Hey, you know, could be worse these days, you know, you count your blessings every day. But again, thank you for three minutes, your time and the platform and I'm super excited to welcome to this show. We're talking about the speaking out movement right now and having these very honest and open discussions, which I think is just the first step in moving forward and creating this Wrestling World. This indie Wrestling World that I love so much, and making it a much better place. So, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the show at this time. She is pro Wrestling's necessary evil. The goth Power Ranger herself. Miss Chelsea Durden. Chelsea thanks for a few minutes. How are you?
 
Chelsea: Hi, Thank you for having me on. All right down here heat wave is more like our way of life in Florida.
 
Marissa: Sorry.
 
Chelsea: What's going on?
 
Rob: Good. Florida's a good place to be in you know, in the in the wrestling business, for sure. Real quick. You know, tell us a little bit about your background, kind of like that origin story getting into the business. Did a meteor hit the Earth? And then you became a professional wrestler? How did that all start for you?
 
Chelsea: Well, some people will tell you that I've crawled out of the depths of hell. But the reality is, you know, just like every other pro-wrestler, ever. I started watching Wrestling when I was like five or six years old. I'm trying to take after my brother, as much as I could. And I just grew up, always wanting to do it. And when I was 22, which was six years ago, I just took the plunge and started my pro wrestling journey. And now I  got a little more back problems and neck problems than the average 28-year-old. But boy, what a ride it's been. Even discounting all the negative, it's been such a crazy, crazy ride.
 
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. And you touched on it. And obviously, you know, we'll get into the very serious talk really soon. But obviously, you know, anyone who's following you on Twitter, I saw you, you know, being able to open up and speak out. What was kind of like your first thought when you saw this trending on social media? Was it a bummer? Were you happy? Were its mixed emotions? What were your immediate gut reactions to seeing the speaking out movement trending on Twitter?
 
Chelsea: It was definitely mixed emotions. Because on the one hand, I was glad that people were getting their stories out. And they were, you know, taking a stand against what has always been a very real problem in wrestling. But at the same time, it just hurt so much to see that there were so many other women like me, who had gone through very similar circumstances to me. And, then I go back to the other side of the emotions where, you know, I'm glad they're not alone with their pain anymore. And back to I'm really sad that there's so many of us that it had to create a movement. And I knew, once I saw it on Twitter, and I saw people I knew who were coming out with their own stories. A friend of mine texted me. And he said, I know that you were looking for a sign of when the time would be right to talk about what happened. And if you're still waiting for a sign, I think this is it.
 
Marissa: That's awesome.
 
Rob: Wow. And I was just going to say and Marissa you know, obviously, this is something you can totally relate to, but kind of getting over that hump. You know, you had the friend reach out to you, Chelsea. What kind of made you finally just pull that trigger and really sit down and type out those multiple tweets.
 
Chelsea: It's kind of funny. A couple weeks prior, I had sat down in my living room and constructed that over the course of a few hours. I'm just thinking, you know, I just had to get it out of my head and onto paper or document. And just thinking maybe it would just be a cathartic release for myself. I had like no plans of when I was going to release it. When I was, you know, if I was going to post it publicly or at all, if that was just going to be like a personal thing for me. And because I've been holding on to it for a year and a half at that point, or longer, if you consider how long I was in the situation, I didn't tell anybody about it. And it was like the hammer dropped when the speaking out movement started gaining some traction. So I went to my parents’ house After work, I think it was a Friday. And they knew a little bit of what I had went through, but not all of it. Not some of the heavier parts. And I wanted them to hear it from me before they saw it on the internet. And that experience broke my heart, just seeing my parents completely broken. And then I went home and I revised everything. It took a while and I posted it about maybe 4:30 in the morning, and I went to bed.
 
Rob: Wow.
 
Marissa: Wow. Well, that was really brave for you to post that and truly, extremely brave for you to tell your parents. I mean, I know so many people, including myself, who didn't tell their parents because of fear of the reaction that we'd have from them. So that's really admirable of you to have done.
 
Chelsea: I mean, they're, they're such wonderful people. My parents are my best friends. They're my biggest fans, they come to all the local shows of mine, that they can. You know, they take pictures and video. They buy my shirts. Like they won't let me give them shirts, they buy my shirts. And my dad sends pictures and videos of me wrestling to his friends and his co-workers. I'm so close with them. And that's why I broke my heart so much to tell them but I couldn’t, as much as I wanted to protect them from feeling like they couldn't protect me, they're my mom and dad and I had to I had to tell them if I was going to tell the world then I had to tell them, too.
 
Rob: Absolutely. And for those listening I mean, you know if you haven't read what Chelsea has tweeted out in her speaking out moment, Chelsea, could you give us like kind of just like a short and sweet kind of recap of, I believe it was your trainer, doing terrible, terrible things to you.
 
Chelsea: Yeah, it was my first wrestling trainer, Pablo Marquez in Fort Lauderdale. I started there with him. It was at the time, the only, you know, wrestling school in the area. And I started training with him in July 2014. And then August 2014, is when he assaulted me for the first time. And you know, it's I always knew why women don't report things like that, and what happens to victims with you know, freezing up and, and keeping it a secret and feeling ashamed. And, you know, all of that, like I got it on a surface level. But I didn't really, truly understand why until I actually went through it myself. You know, I had thought of myself as a strong person before. That I would never just take that quietly and I would I would fight back, and I would go to the top and I wouldn't hide it and let it get worse. But I did. And I didn't really understand why that happens until I went through it myself. And part of me felt almost kind of like I deserved it because I had a lot of friends involved in independent wrestling before I actually started wrestling myself. And several of them have warned me, you know, Pablo is really inappropriate with his female students, just don't find yourself alone with him. And you know, be careful if you're if you're going to go there. And I brushed it off as you know, indie wrestling drama, or, “Oh, maybe they're bitter because they don't get booked,” or something stupid like that. But then they were all right. Everybody who warned me everybody who told me to be careful.
 
Rob: It's crazy. I think I remember an instance in that tweet, you know, I personally have such a strong connection with the indie wrestling scene and I work with some really great promoters. Now I'm not going to name drop and shameless promo that's for later. But I will say, it's been so positive to me, I've had such a positive experience with the indie wrestling scene. And to hear these stories, you know, and I see all these, this very young group of talent coming up that are going to go very, very far. I get very, very worried. And we always talk about you know, the good brothers, the good sisters. This family; the respect in the ring. You know, there was that instance, I believe in your tweet where it said there where you came out, you were obviously like bruised and beaten. And one of your, I guess, friends or someone you worked with in the ring kind of saw that something was messed up and you like assured them that everything was fine. I mean, I can understand like, why you know, felt the need to do that. Do you feel like the this is the wrestling community’s issue, to kind of step up now and really kind of take the initiative to look out for each other?
 
Chelsea: It's time now more than ever. There's a lot of good brothers and sisters in independent wrestling and higher-level wrestling. I've been so fortunate to come across so many wonderful, wonderful genuine people who just want to give back to wrestling, and love wrestling, and love teaching, and guiding, and helping. But there are so many who are still stuck in the old ways. Because in a lot of ways, and it's moving away from that now but up until very recently, like the last few years wrestling was really like the outlaw sport. You could have who knows what on your record and still find your place and in wrestling. And you know, lots of shady characters, people with pasts that nobody knew about or did and just kind of brushed it off because maybe they were a great wrestler. That attitude towards that that old school you know, brothers protecting brothers mentality is changing for the better. And it's time now, more than ever, for people to stand up as higher-level a community and protect the people who are coming after us and the people who are just starting to get into the wrestling business. They shouldn't have to go through things like this. There's a lot of old grizzled veterans who want to punish the newer generation, just like they were punished. But it doesn't have to be that way. And that's an old, stupid mindset. Why would you want people to suffer the way you suffered? I certainly don't. I'm saying this at the ripe old age of six seasoned years in wrestling. It's not fair for people to have to go through this, if we have the power to change it. There was no social media in 1995. But now there is and we can take care of people and we can warn people and you know, clean up wrestling for the better.
 
Rob: How do you? How do you know I'm sorry, and Marissa perhaps you could actually like relate to this? Like you always say, speak your truth. Break your silence. Like how did that feel Chelsea to, you know, say the names and you know, tell the story and possibly protect a lot of these up and comers. Was that part of the healing for you?
 
Chelsea: It was incredibly cathartic to finally say something about it, because I felt like I'd been carrying this really, really heavy backpack for so long, that was just getting heavier and heavier. And it was getting worse. I wasn't sleeping. I wasn't eating. I was just going through the motions in other aspects of my life. And my friends noticed, my parents were worried, because it was just driving me insane sitting in my head like that. And actually getting it out there, and having people know, instead of just, you know, running into them in different locker rooms, — and then seeing that something's not quite right but they can't really put their finger on it. And not now knowing everything I've gone through. It was such a freeing feeling.
 
Marissa: I can't even imagine what it felt like carrying that around. And then even to make it worse, you're involved in this community that it's really big, but it feels so small. And so, I imagine everybody knows everybody. So, the fear of speaking out… Like, I can't even begin to imagine what that was like.
 
Chelsea: Oh, yeah, it really is such a small community. You know, there are 1000s of indie wrestlers all over who have never heard of each other. But the community is really a lot smaller than people might believe. Everybody knows everybody, especially in Florida. It's such an insular community. And every promotion knows who runs every other promotion, and who's in it, and everybody's secrets, and I knew it would spread really fast. And that was, you know, part of that fear, even for me. I started training at another wrestling school, not terribly far away, and I’m still driving through Fort Lauderdale every day, praying I wouldn't see anybody on the highway on my way down.
 
Rob: Wow. And Chelsea, I wanted to ask you this and I actually screenshot of this and retweeted this a little while ago, and maybe I'll put the screenshot on my Facebook as well. It was a quote you put. You put, “When you work for outed abusers, you're showing all your friends, they can't trust you.” Tell us a little bit your mindset there. I took a lot from that personally.
 
Chelsea: Well, that came from, you know, people I've known for a lot of years now I saw were still working for his promotion and training at his school and other people I knew training with and working for other outlet abusers. And I felt like, so by working for that person, someone who's been outed as having done something so heinous, you're really demonstrating that the things that they've done really aren't a problem for you. And, you know, stepping back and saying, “Oh, well, he never did anything to me, or he's always been, he's always been cool with me.” It's kind of trying to like shrug that responsibility off you have as a person to other to other people. And it felt to me, like you're showing everybody that you know, $40 or $60 bucks or maybe even $100 is more important. More important to you than, you know, sleeping at night.
 
Rob: Yeah, I think you hit that one right on it on the Marissa I'll throw it back to you.
 
Marissa: Well, we had a conversation with another wrestler, and I apologize that I forget who it was, who said something similar, like, well, this person has been accused of rape or sexual assault, and they're still being booked. And promoters were responding with and booking agents were responding with, well, what do you want me to do not book them? Yeah, that's exactly what you shouldn't be doing. And for people to continue to train under this person and work for this person for Pablo. You know, you shouldn't be doing that. Because you're still putting food on his table. You're still allowing him to continue to offend people. And you're pretty much you know, nodding your head at him and saying, like you said, "What you did to these people, how you hurt Chelsea and probably countless other women who trained under him, that's all okay because I never experienced that.” I know I'm pretty much just mirroring what you said. But like, it's just so powerful the way you said it.
 
Chelsea: It's the fact of the matter. It's like I know for a fact other people that he's hurt. And you know, I haven't come out with it or named them or anything because that's not my story to tell it's theirs if they ever choose to tell it. And it just kind of seems, it's I don't know, you really, you find out who your friends are really, really quickly, when you become somewhat of a social pariah in the community. I never wanted this to be like the champion of movement and you know, like holding a flag. It's like I told my mom a really long time ago, probably back in 2014, when I was just telling her different things about indie wrestling, and how things are run. And she would say she was flabbergasted and she'd be like, well, that that doesn't sound right. Or that sounds awful, you should say something about that. You should do something about that. You should speak up about that. And I told her that you could either be a successful wrestler, or you could be the one who suffers in pursuit of, changing the world, or changing your world. And I didn't want to suffer. I just wanted to be a successful professional wrestler. But I realized a couple months ago that I have a responsibility to everyone else, to make sure that this stops happening. Even if one girl who Google's pro wrestling school, South Florida doesn't click on that link, and decides to go somewhere else instead, then that's what I've wanted. That's what I want to do. I don't want anybody to go through what I went through ever again; I don't want anybody. I don't want him to be able to hurt anyone again, and I don't want anybody else to have the room to operate in the shadows and hurt people either.
 
Marissa: I can completely relate to what you're saying. I mean, not in the Wrestling World. But when I started talking about my story, it was way before #MeToo. And it was way before all of this and it really made a lot of people uncomfortable around me. And people stopped wanting to talk to me or be friends with me because I became like you said a social pariah. I was like, the person who, like the “man-hater.” Meanwhile, I had more male friends and female friends, but that's neither here nor there. So, thank you for taking on that role, Even though you kind of have to choose between mental health and success. That's not a fair place to be in. When you started speaking out and went public about this a month ago. Did you did you face backlash? Did you get people breaking their silence to you? What happened in your community?
 
Chelsea: Well, I did face backlash, not right away. At first, I was just completely overwhelmed by the outpouring of support. People I had never met and never heard of, were messaging me to tell me their stories. And you know, unload things that had happened to them. And that was really heavy to like, read through, but I was glad that they did it. They don't have to be alone with you know, just suffering inside their head. And I was, you know, people who I hadn't spoken to in years were messaging me and telling me they were behind me and they're proud of me and they love me. And I couldn't believe that. I expected the backlash that did eventually come in the form of everybody in Pablo’s camp double down on backing him.
 
Rob: Yikes.
 
Chelsea: It's like this weird worshipful thing that you know, it's something that I noticed when I was there. At Coastal Championship Wrestling. I noticed that Pablo didn't really like when his students would go to work for other independent promotions. Not even the in the area like not that they were to like his local competition or anything. But he didn't really he didn't really like that he would talk a big game. How he wanted his students to you know, grow and travel and, and work different places and gain experience, but he didn't really like it and he would give a lot of them a hard time. He would only really be okay with people working different shows if he went with them. And it took me a while to realize, but it finally dawned on me that he didn't want his students to see the way things were at other wrestling schools and other independent promotions. Where their younger guys weren't expected to pay their coaches phone bill, or pick them up because he didn't have a car, or like pay for their own opponents.
 
Marissa: Those unprofessional.
 
Chelsea: Those were things, those were things that were happening. And when people see that the grass is, in fact, greener on any other side, they want to leave, and he wants to prevent that. So, his people are very isolated from the rest of the wrestling community and he likes it that way. Because he doesn't want them to see that when they, when they screw up a drill that they don't have to get, kicked out of the ring, or shoved or smacked across the face, or any number of things that I've personally witnessed happen to people, other than me.
Rob: I was just going to say it just you saying all that, like. I mean, obviously, so many things you said, it's like hits a nerve with me, because, you know, I love this business so much, especially the Indies and you know, people I call friends in Indies, whether they're, you know, up and coming stars, or, you know, trying to make a name for themselves, or some of these great promoters. Because it's all about working together, you want to see people succeed. I love it, when in your organizations, we have a lot of great places here in New Jersey that I work with. And there's also one or two really bad places that are finally getting outed and stuff like that. But that's not what it's about. So, to hear all those things like, you know, you think you'd want your students to succeed. I know trainers that are just such amazing, inspiring people. They want to see their students succeed. They want to inspire them. So, my question for you is, you know, I love professional wrestling so much, the Indies specifically. Does this take the shine off for you? I mean, I see you got some great matches coming up. I see a tag team with Red Velvet. That's some super exciting little shameless promo there. But does that take the shine off for you?
 
Chelsea: It could have and it should have. But I, for me, personally, and I know it's not always the case with other people who have gone through similar, and I absolutely don't blame them for not wanting to be involved anymore, or just wanting to move on with their life. But for me, I felt like he had already taken so much from me that I could not let him take wrestling from me. Because he wasn't wrestling. He wasn't the embodiment of wrestling. He's not the end all be all of wrestling. He's such a small microscopic part of it. And I couldn't let him take away what I was born to do.
 
Marissa: Fuck Yes, fuck, yes. That got me fired up. Now I want to start wrestling.
 
Rob: I love it.
 
Chelsea: Make sure you have a good chiropractor on file.
 
Marissa: Duly noted.
 
Rob: I love it. So as Marissa always says, you are definitely a champion in more ways than one. For sure. I do want to thank you for a few minutes of your time and opening up. We really do appreciate it and I'm sure a lot of other people appreciate it as well. But I did want to ask you this or last question for me. Advice you would have for some of these young up and comers. You know, we talk about these terrible things that happen behind the scenes or in training and specific places. We talk about those airport pickups for some of the you know, big talent, we talked about maybe having separate locker rooms, like any advice to some of this up-and-coming next generation talent.
 
Chelsea: I would tell them you know, first of all, find a reputable wrestling school. Google is your friend, and you know. Don't just go to their website or their Facebook page, you know. Vet it as thoroughly as you can. If you have a friend that's in indie wrestling, certainly ask them for their recommendations and, you know, figure out whether you're going to have a good group of people there or not. But also, if something feels off to you, or it feels wrong, it probably is. And don't let anyone convince you that that's just the wrestling business or that's just indie wrestling, because chances are if it's not okay in other professions or other sports — you know, the way somebody's being treated, or the way maybe your trainer treats women, or maybe they take advantage of younger students being naive — It's probably not right. And I would encourage them not to not to stay quiet about it.
 
Rob: Absolutely, anything else from Marissa before we get out of here?
 
Marissa: I don't have any other questions. But I really want to commend you on speaking out and breaking your silence, and supporting so many other women and champions in wrestling, who have been affected by sexual assault, sexual harassment, Rape, emotional Abuse, narcissism, abuse. I just think that what you're doing is more powerful than I can describe in words, you know, you are truly making a difference. And I am so grateful. And I'm sure hundreds of women and men who have been affected by abuse and assault are also extremely, extremely grateful for your openness and your honesty and for putting the people who deserve to be put in their place, in their place. And Don't let anyone stop you from doing the things that you love to do. So, thank you so much for being here today. We totally appreciate you.
 
Chelsea: Absolutely. Thank you for having me and giving me the space to ramble.
 
Rob: Alright, I'm clapping for you over here. Before we get out of here though, the most important part. No, no, not in this case the most important part. But we are about that shameless promo and I did love those T-shirts. Tell us a little bit where people can follow you on social media and get some of those great T shirts AT Pro Wrestling tees all that good stuff.
 
Chelsea: Oh, well. I have a pro wrestling tees store. ProWrestlingTees.com/ChelseaDurden. I got a couple of shirts up there. You know, I like to say ever I have a wrestling podcast myself called Demon Road Diaries. Yeah, we always plug our socials at the end of it. And I always like to say, head to prowrestlingtees.com/ChelseaDurden. If you're interested in helping me put my cats through college. It's not cheap. Sorry. I'm just kidding. No, I really am. There's a kitten in my lap right now. Oh, and I'm on Twitter and littered and says I'm on Instagram at Darden says and pretty soon, I have a T shirt coming out. That's going to be direct sales that I'm going to be taking pre orders for that 100% of the proceeds are going to be donated to a local domestic violence shelter here where I live. So the art is getting finalized on that. And I'll be posting that up soon probably in the next week or so.
 
Marissa: Can you make sure to send me the link to that when you're done? Thank you.
 
Rob: Awesome. Hey, Chelsea, thank you so much again for opening up for a few minutes your time. You know, stay safe in this crazy 2020. And continued success moving forward.
 
Chelsea: Absolutely. Thank you, guys.
 
Rob: All right, guys, as always say here on the BCP. Stay safe, stay positive, take care of each other. We're out peace.
 
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen. 
 
 
Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse are so important to your mental health and to living a life of freedom, confidence and peace.  Today, I want to talk about how to develop confidence, and why building confidence helps overcome narcissism. But before we start, I want to brainstorm ways that I can help ease your healing journey.  Imagine you’re standing on a cliff.  And on the other side of a deep canyon is the life that you dream of.  A partner who connects with you, supports and empowers you, and makes you laugh and smile. A life filled with freedom, confidence and peace.  I have been where you are now.  Standing on the edge, dreaming of that life.  And I’ve built the bridge between where you are now, and that dream that seems so far away.  Let me walk you across the bridge, and literally hand you the life of your dreams.  It’s possible. I’ve walked this path with thousands of survivors, who live free, confident and peaceful lives. Let’s walk this path together.  Don’t waste anymore time feeling lonely, worthless or exhausted. Schedule a call with me today at scheduleacallwithmarissa.com.
 
In my Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, building resilience is the second key component of overcoming narcissism. You build resilience by building confidence and boosting confidence, learning how to love yourself more, overcoming low self esteem, and regaining self respect. Resilience is that strength that allows you to overlook and ignore negative energy and toxic people.  It lets the words that would normally hurt you bounce right off.  And having that strength and that power is refreshing, after emotional abuse.  Being able to stand up tall and the words fall right off you, its empowering. 
 
Building confidence is different from putting up a wall, because putting a wall between you and other people is distancing and isolating.  You’re not addressing your trauma, simply putting a very temporary bandaid on it.  Our goal isn’t to feel isolated or push others away.  It is to let the words of narcissists and abusers bounce off you without affecting you.  
 
So, there are a few ways you can develop confidence, but this is one of my favorite confidence building exercises, and it’s super simple.
 
On your phone, open up your alarm app.  Create a new alarm for 10 minutes after you wake up.  As the alarm title, write an empowering phrase or something you love about yourself.  Like, I’m a badass.  Or “Kick butt today.” Or, I have a beautiful heart.  And set it for everyday at the same time.  
 
Next, set an alarm for when you normally have lunch, or sometime in the middle of the day.  Do the same thing, but pick a different phrase or feature, to remind yourself how smart, intelligent and powerful you are. “I can accomplish anything.” “Today is your day.” “I am smart, funny and kind.”  Set it for everyday at the same time. 
 
And finally, set an alarm for 10 minutes before you go to sleep.  Before you do any nighttime routine that you have. Title this one with a quality you love about yourself, or an empowering phrase — something that makes you go to sleep feeling inspired.  You can write a long-term goal that you’re working on, but phrase it as if you’ve already accomplished it. “I am excited to be living my best life with my dream partner in Colorado by the mountains.” Or something that you want in life. Set this alarm for everyday.
 
Now, on a scale from 1-10, I want you to rank how you’re feeling right now, 1 is bad, 10 is amazing. And every night before you go to sleep and every morning when you wake up, I want you to rank, using the same scale, how you’re feeling.  It’ll surprise you how one small change in your routine can have such a grand impact on your overall confidence.  
 
In my newest upcoming book, The Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, I identify 10 easy techniques and confidence building exercises that will help you develop confidence and maintain it, with little to no additional daily effort.  The release date is still to be determined, but to Pre-Order your copy, visit: 
 
https://marissafayecohen.com/product/the-healing-from-emotional-abuse-philosophy-the-3-keys-to-overcoming-narcissism/
 
In addition to that book, which is an incredibly exciting work, I have a resource available right now.  Healing From Emotional Abuse: 365 Ways to Start Your Healing Journey.  You can find that, as a special offer right now, for only $7 on my website at: www.marissafayecohen.com/special-bonus-offers, or $11.97 on amazon.
 
Learning how to develop confidence is just one step in my 3 step process to Healing From Emotional Abuse. In order to fully heal, you must have all three steps working together.  I want all survivors of abuse and narcissism to live free, confidence and peaceful lives because we deserve it.  You have overcome and survived so much.  It’s time to take your life back!
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, how to develop confidence, build confidence, boost confidence, how to boost confidence, how to build confidence, unconditional self love, self love, love myself, i want to love myself again, 
 
Don’t waste anymore time feeling lonely, worthless or exhausted. Schedule a call with me today at scheduleacallwithmarissa.com.

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Breaking Through Our Silence. I know I say this every time but I am so honored to bring in my amazing, amazing friend, Dave Gilliland to talk to us today. Dave is an asylum officer with the Citizens and Immigration Offices, a veteran, a survivor of child sexual abuse, and a Southern Baptist pastor for the First Baptist Church of Coal City, Illinois. But before all of that, he is my former co-worker, amazing business partner, and long-time friend and travel buddy. We worked together at the 416th Tech Army Installation working in suicide prevention. Thank you so much for being here, Dave. Oh, my gosh, I miss you.
 
Dave: It's awesome. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my little slice of the world on such an important topic. I'm really excited to be here. Thank you.
 
Marissa: Well, thank you so much for being so open to talk to us. So today, I really want to focus on how religion plays a role in abuse. I have been confronted with several people reaching out asking about what they can do, because they are very devout in their religion, and feel very stuck in their abusive situation. So, as a pastor, if somebody were to approach you and say, “I'm in an abusive relationship, but I don't know what to do,” what advice would you give them? What would you say to them?
 
Dave: Well, you know, every person is different, and every situation is different. So, I don't know that there's a boilerplate answer. I'm actually dealing with a couple of different couples that are going through divorce right now. One from my church, one from my extended family. And there's been a culture for a really long time. In a church culture of you don't divorce unless there's some kind of sexual infidelity or things like that. And there's definitely biblical precedent for that. At the same time, I don't think that people should take such a legalistic view of the Bible that they stay in an abusive relationship. I can't imagine that Jesus would want you to stay and be abused. I just don't get that from the Scripture. So typically what I would do is I recommend counseling . I don't counsel myself, because I'm not a counsellor, you know. I'm just a guy who happens to be a pastor on the side. I don't have a counseling  degree. So I outsource counseling , but I recommend counseling . I do recommend reconciliation, as the main goal. You know? Restoration, reconciliation. Let's not walk away from something that's broken if it can be fixed and restored. You know? That's even better. Sometimes people just don't want to put in the work because it takes work. So, you know, definitely counseling . I don't want people hiding and just suffering abuse for no reason. I don't think that's a good way to live. And I don't think that honors God to live that way either.
 
Marissa: That makes sense. First, I like that you said that you don't think that Jesus would want somebody to suffer through abuse. And I agree with that. I'm Jewish, by tradition and by blood. So, Jesus has never been a part of my life, but, from what I understand from Catholicism and Christianity and the sects of Christianity, I also can't imagine that a person that preached tolerance and non judgment would want you to suffer. Right?
 
Dave: Right. There's, a whole school of thought, it comes, like I said, from a very legalistic perspective. Kind of an old school cultural perspective that, you know, the man is in charge. And, you know, the scripture saying that your body is not your own, it belongs to your spouse. And that has really been misused and abused. Some people may say, some pastors may say, “Yes, you should suffer just like Jesus suffered.” And, you know, I think that's a real misinterpretation of Scripture. Jesus always confronted people in their sin. I mean, he never just ignored sin. But, he did it in a loving way. And he would say things like, “I'm the judge, not you.” Basically, who has no sin cast the first stone, right? All of us have our sins; all of us have our shortcomings. And I think God, if you look from the whole creation story at the beginning, if you look from the Torah, all right, all the way through the new testament to Revelation. God, continually, constantly over and over again, is about redeeming and restoring. And I think that when people are in an abusive situation, you should try to fix it. Sometimes it can't be fixed. And I think there is a point where you just got to walk away. And I don't think it's the Church's responsibility to make people feel guilty about that, to harm them. You can be guilt tripped in staying, or there's a lot of different ways that we can manipulate people into doing things that they don't want to do. And I don't think that's the Church's job. I think the Church's job is to redeem all of those types of things. To love. And that's ultimately, I mean, you can get through these things. I've seen marriages come back from the brink. Most of the broken marriages I see, there have been a little bit of direct abuse. Like emotional abuse, or some verbal abuse. But most of the time, it's years and years of neglect, right? It's about not dealing with things as they happen. It's not, it's about trying to cover them up or to cover them over, instead of addressing it right then and there. And what happens is when people hold on to their stuff, and those hurt feelings build up; those wounds add up. And then there's a point where everything just explodes. Right? And then it's just a big, giant mess. Like I said, I'm dealing with two divorces right now and that's exactly what happened in both of them. One is a 13-year marriage. The other one’s over 20 years. And it's simply because they have neglected their marriage over the years and they've abused each other in that way. They've not taken care of each other. And now, there's, you know, very little hope for reconciliation.
 
Marissa: But what about people who are, not to, you know, downplay anything with the couples that you're working with, but the people who are in verbally or emotionally abusive relationships that are persistent? Abuse is classified as a pattern of behaviour that cycles through honeymoon, to tension, to explosion. And so those are the people that I'm concerned about, truly, that feel guilt ridden to stay.
 
Dave: Well, again, I guess I would recommend counseling first, for any of those situations where there's sexual, physical, verbal, emotional, try to get some help. There's a point when you are enabling somebody else's mental illness, right? Their stuff’s being projected on you, and they're taking it out on you. If I ever struck my wife out of anger, she should walk out the door. Right? She absolutely should. That said, we've been married for 20 years, we should get counseling, if that's possible. I grew up in a very abusive home, with an alcoholic father. And I can't tell you how many times I heard, “Oh, I'll never drink again, I'll never hit you, again. I'll never do this, again.” And there comes a point when you know, right, that those words mean nothing at all. Right? Words go so far, but then there's got to be some action. So, in the church language, we would call that repentance, right? And what repentance means is, it doesn't mean saying, “I'm sorry for something.” It means basically doing a 180. I was going this direction, now I turn around and I’m going in that direction. So, if I'm being abusive, I'm going to quit being abusive. And I'm going to start being loving and supportive and encouraging and all those things. So, when I'm dealing with people from a pastoral perspective, one of the first things I look for is, how do I see these people behaving towards each other? Are they behaving towards each other with criticism and sarcasm and a lack of integrity? Or are they trying to love and care and compassion? Do you see those things in their actions? Because what you ultimately want is you want that person to say, “You know what? Yes, I am wrong.” So, we would call that, you know, confession. “I'm wrong. This is wrong, and things I've been doing is wrong.” So, they're displaying some humility, right? And then they say, “I'm going to change my ways.” Then we create some action steps. What is that going to look like? Number one, you're not going to hit or you're not going to say these things. You're going to go to counseling. You can go to counseling together, but you also should go separately. And then we create some action steps. And then we really just want to check in with that other person, the victim, the person is being abused. And see, is this actually happening in day-to-day life? Because usually, when I see somebody, it's once a week, once a month, at the most, if they're going through something like that. So, you want to keep checking in with that other person. “How's it going? How's it going?” You can tell if somebody’s really turned it around. If they really want to restore. If they really want to repent. I'm using a lot of our words, but it's just the way it kind of plays out. You know, if they repent and they start taking those actionable steps, you really want to try to support keeping those people together. If they're not, then, and I can't make that call, you know. At some point the victim has to, I hate even using the word victim, but the person being abused, has to make that call. And I think, as a pastor, not every pastor is like this. Not every denomination is like this. But for me, I'm not going to dump a guilt trip on you for doing that. You know, I don't have to live with the abuser. You do. And there is definitely a point now. You know, the flip side of that is somebody says, “Oh, my husband came home and had a bad day and, you know, threw his car keys at me. I'm leaving.” Well, okay. I have bad days, too. Is this habitual? Like you said, is it a pattern? Or is it a bad day. You know, some people will look for anything to get out of a marriage. And some people stay too long. And that's got to be a personal call.
 
Marissa: That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for saying all that. So, I wanted to bring this up: in vows, in marriage vows, it says “I vow to love, honor and cherish.” And those three words are powerful words, but they're also really vague. So, a lot of times, people will use that as a way to guilt somebody into staying, right? Like, “Well, you vowed to love, honor and cherish me.” But then on the flip side, that person isn't feeling loved, honored or cherished back. So, can you just give what your opinion of that is?
 
Dave: Sure. I mean, in an ideal world, that's what we would all do to each other, right? I've been happily married for over 20 years now. Do I love, honor and cherish my wife every day? No, not as much as I should. I take her for granted. And she would say the same thing to you, you know? Because we're human beings. And that's just the way we do. A lot of people don't even put those things in their vows anymore. What I more specifically point to, and you know, if I was a really good pastor, and I had been really prepared, I would have looked up the exact scripture reference for this. But in Ephesians, Paul tells husbands and wives, and this is the one that probably you hear most often, is wives submit to your husbands, right? Yeah, I mean, it does. It's wives submit to your husbands as your husband submits to Christ. And so, a lot of men will use that and say she's supposed to submit to me. Well, it says, as you, the man, are submitting to Christ. Most men aren’t submitting to Christ the way they want their wife to submit to them. So, it's not it's not a license to abuse, it's not a license to oppress. It says, husbands, love your wives. Wives, respect your husbands. And I think it's interesting that those two words are used with those two genders. Because it seems like sometimes the most difficult thing for a man to do is to show love. And sometimes the most difficult thing for a woman to do is show respect to a man. And, you know, there's a lot to unpack there that you could unpack. But the thing that I tell married couples, when I'm getting ready to marry somebody, is the wedding is a day. A marriage is a lifetime. And it takes work; it takes intentionality. And what it really takes is selflessness. If you are putting that other person above yourself, each and every day as much as you can, and they are doing the same, you have a much higher chance of being successful. You are putting in 110% every day, and they're putting in 30%. At some point, you got to say this is dumb, right? This just is dumb. And that's, I think, when you ask for help, and you address it, right? Because if you don't, then what happens, again, is you go 3, 5, 10, whatever years. However you decide to cope with it until you just blow up, and you're like “I'm done.” And it doesn't matter what happens now. So, should we love, honor and cherish? Yeah, I mean, I should love, honour and cherish you as a human being. Do we do it? We're not great at it, a lot of times. Just look at social media, right?
 
Marissa: That's true. I think that we're at a point in society. And this is a total 180. But, we're at a point in society where social graces have kind of gone out the window. And we're kind of so disconnected because we are so overly connected, that the need for human contact is satisfied by turning on my phone and going on Facebook. So, I don't feel the need to shoot you a text message every week and say, “Hey, Dave. How are you doing?” And I just think that's so sad. And I think that plays a big role in the way that people relate to each other and why abuse is so rampant.
 
Dave: I think, too, that you see, you've probably heard this before, but there's a degree of anonymity even if you're friends with a person on Facebook or Instagram. There are things that I see people say on social media to each other that they would never, ever say to their face. And I think, in a way, and I'm not going to say that all social media is from the devil. I think it's just the way we use social media in such a poor manner. But, I think it has really decreased our communication skills. I think it has really taken away from the way we communicate with each other. And I certainly think there's probably a correlation to the way we communicate in the marriage relationship in that sense, as well. It's a lot easier to get in my friends group and chat with my buddies about how horrible my wife is, instead of just actually saying, “Hey, babe, what you said to me was, the way you said it was disrespectful. And what you said hurt me.” How hard is that to do? And if I said that to my wife, she would be crushed. You'd be like, “Oh, no, I didn't mean to do that. I didn't mean it that way,” or “This is what's going on,” you know. And we can have an actual conversation about it. People don't seem to want to do that anymore. I don't know why. And I think maybe one of the reasons is because social media makes it so easy to not have to do those things, right?
 
Marissa: I guess it sounds so silly. But there's a thrill in picking a fight with somebody or saying something that you would never say to somebody’s face on social media. Because there's really no, there's no consequence. I can go on and use really mean words and attack people. And the consequence I get is a couple more people will call me a bitch. That doesn't really mean anything to me, right? So, there's like a thrill in that. And then the more you do that, you just get used to that kind of aggressive negativity. And it becomes much easier to speak in that way than like you said, than it is to confront the person that's actually bothering you. And my mentor, Jack Canfield, has said to me, on several occasions, that we complain about things to the wrong people. So, his biggest example, his main example, is we don't go around and complain about gravity, because we can't control gravity, right? It just, it is. It exists. But people, like you said, will go to their friends and bad mouth their partner, or, you know, will attack somebody on social media, and complain in that way. Call everybody from different political sides ignorant, and stupid, and dumb, and whatever. Because it's so much easier to do that and be validated than it is to confront a person and be honest. 
 
Dave: Right. And sometimes, my wife, like I said, we've been married over 20 years. And there have been times when she'll say something that has been hurtful to me, you know. I'll say something back to let her know. But at the same time, that's also an opportunity for me to do a little bit of self examination. Why did that particular thing, that touched a nerve. And why did it touch a nerve? Right, and I think that's another thing that we lack. Because what you mentioned about being validated, right? It's much easier for us to go out and find people who agree with us than to do some hard self-examination on why we say the things that we do, or why we behave the way we behave.
 
Marissa: Right. And that's a really hard pill to swallow for a lot of people. 
 
Dave: I'm not the most overtly religious, you know. I'm not a traditional. So, just so your folks know, I don't have a seminary degree. For me to be a Southern Baptist pastor is nearly unheard of. I've got a lot of tattoos; I have a divorce in my past. You know, it was definitely ordained by God that I ended up with the Church. There's no other way to explain it. I don't have the most traditional approach. But I have to feel from my faith; what I see in the Bible, or what I read from my faith, is that it is always, like I said, about, there's hope. There's hope for change. That people can change. Abusers can change. People that have been abused can heal, right? I think that's the most awesome thing about the Christian faith, is that it offers that opportunity. And in our tradition, God, the Holy Spirit enters into you, into your life. You surrender your life for His. And what that means is you surrender your will, your hopes, your desires, your dreams, your goals; you surrender everything for His. And when that happens, when you make that choice, when you do that surrender, you know, we feel then that God starts to work through you. And when He does, He can radically, radically change your life. And I'm telling you, you know, if you talk to guys that I was in the army with, I didn't get all these scars and tattoos because I was in Sunday school my whole life, right? I rode motorcycles, I ran with a rough crowd. I did some, you know, some very hard things. My parents owned taverns when I was growing up. So, I was raised in a very toxic, you know, chemical, alcoholic, abusive infidelity. I mean, it was just rampant. Everybody did it. You know, as a child growing up, I thought everybody lived that way. And I'm a pastor. I mean, there's no, it makes no sense. I'm more compassionate. I used to be so mean and just use and abuse people. And now I feel like I'm so much more compassionate for my fellow man. I have no other way to explain it other than God. And I think that's the greatest thing about faith and about spirituality, is that it gives an opportunity for change, it gives an opportunity. Paul says in Second Corinthians 5:17, the old is gone, you are a new creation, right? You get to, that doesn't mean that you get off scot free, right? Things that you do have consequences. There are still consequences that I pay for, for things that I did 30 years ago. It doesn't give you a blank check. But it gives you a new start. And that can happen for so many people. Sometimes it's really hard for them to accept that these patterns of behavior are so ingrained. And sometimes it's just easier to be abused, or to abuse, than it is to think of a new way of being, or a new way of doing.
 
Marissa: People can change when they want to. And I truly believe that I've seen people change. And so, I completely agree with that. I think your congregation, because of everything that you've gone through, and how you got to where you are now; I think your congregation is so lucky, because you're relatable. I think one of the things that I, for a lack of a better term, distrust about organized religion, is that the person that you are praying with, so like the rabbi, or the priest, or the pastor, they are these nearly perfect beings. And that makes them really intimidating and difficult to confide in, in my very, very humble, non-religious opinion. So, when I was doing grad school, I had to write a paper about domestic violence in the ultra orthodox communities. And I learned that these people who were going to the rabbi for help, were basically turned away and told that they need to fix their household because they are the ones that are imperfect. And I think that that's so dangerous. So I, first and foremost, want to thank you for being who you are, and being the leader that you are. Because I think that you're helping a ton of people, just by having an imperfect background and an imperfect view, that people don't need to be perfect. They just need to be willing to change.
 
Dave: Again, this is all cultural stuff. And I'm talking about church culture, specifically American church culture. Where there is this kind of American Dream gospel, this American Dream philosophy. Where if you're the man, you wear the suit; you go to work. And the wife wears a dress and raises the babies. And everybody goes to church smiling on Sunday morning. And that's the perfect life. And that's just not realistic. And it never has been. I mean, let's be honest. It's never been that way, right? And what you get, then, in that kind of philosophy, is you get these religious leaders, from all different faith traditions, that end up being put on a pedestal, because they are spiritual leaders. Some of them, let's be honest, like the pedestal. They like the attention. They like the power. And it's always just a big recipe for disaster. And then you do start to get that kind of “holier than thou” attitude from people. And “Go fix your own self.” So that’s not the way God operates. I mean, you read the Bible, and that's not the way He operates. Religious leaders are the ones that are supposed to be, the Bible tells us that we will be judged more harshly than other people. So, we really got to keep a check on the positions of power that have been given to us. I would never tell anybody, you know, “Go fix yourself.” I would say, you know, “Let God fix you. The counsellor can help.” You know, God can use the counsellor. Some people need medication, I'm not opposed to stuff like that. But you get this sometimes, and Christians deserve it. I think, most of the Christians I know, I would say, don't go to church because they're so holy; they go to church because they're so broken. And sometimes they get a bad rap that they're holier than thou and they're perfect, and they think they look down on everybody else. Most of the Christians I know are not like that. But there has been a culture like that for probably 30, 40, 50 years, maybe even, where people did feel like they had to act a certain way or behave a certain way to be, you know, quote-unquote, “acceptable.” And that even translated into the way they dress. The way you cut your hair. The way you vote, right? And if you didn't do all of those things the exact way, then you were a failure, and then there was shame and guilt. That's just not true. That’s just not the gospel. That's not, that's not real. That's not what real biblical faith means at all. And the American Dream gospels kind of taken and twisted it, the idea of what success means in faith, and has really done way more damage than good.
 
Marissa: What would be your one take home point, for anybody listening, for the people listening? What would be like the one piece of advice that you'd give them?
 
Dave: So, I've got a bachelor's degree. I got a master's degree. I'm not the dumbest person in the world, but I know I'm not the smartest, right? So, I try to keep things pretty simple. And so, I would say, this really profound thing. s a pastor, I would tell people to love God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind, and love your neighbour as yourself. And if that sounds familiar, it's because I did not come up with that, Jesus did. If people could do those two things. If they could just focus on loving God and loving each other, man, that would make a huge change. Sometimes, we want to be right, more than we want to be compassionate. You know, why do we feel we have to be right all the time, right? Why do we have to feel like we have to be better than other people all the time? Why can't we just lay down our stuff and lift other people up? There's this whole system. The political system, the corporate system. The American dream, kind-of-ideal is about getting power, as much power as you can, right? Do whatever you can. If that's building wealth, if that's getting stuff, it's all about building power, so that you can use that to spend. That's capital that you can use to get what you want. And in many ways, it's very oppressive; it's putting people down. And I would say that the real gospel, the biblical gospel of Jesus Christ, from a Christian perspective, is that you are releasing power. You're releasing your power. And you're using the power of God, that He gives you, a supernatural power, to lift people up, right? It's not about putting people down. It's about lifting people up. And I think specifically in marriages, if we spend more time communicating with each other, and lifting each other up, we would have a lot less problems. You know, who am I? But if you're listening to this, and you are in an abusive marriage, and you are a Christian, go talk to your pastor. And if they don't listen to you, go talk to somebody else that's a godly person that you trust. There are people that will help you. There are Christian counsellors. You know, there is help available, you do not have to live this way. God never intended you to live like property or chattel, right? That's not His design for marriage. The marriage relationship is supposed to be a reflection of the relationship that God has in the Godhead, in the Trinity. In the father, son and the Holy Spirit. The marriage relationship is supposed to reflect that. And God, the Father, and Jesus, the Son, and the Holy Spirit don't abuse each other; they don't talk down each other. They don't slap each other around. They don't take advantage of each other. And so, from a Christian perspective, if you're in a Christian marriage, it's supposed to be better than a layperson or just a non-Christian marriage. And if it's not, you get some help. Just get some help. Get a counsellor. Go to your pastor. Whatever it takes, get some help.
 
Marissa: And if you do all that, and it's still not healthy, or it's still abusive, I have available a free safety planning guide on my website. It's http://www.marissafayecohen.com/free-resources and it should be the first one that pops up. Reach out to pastors and spiritual guides and priests to whoever you look up to. Thank you so much for saying all that, Dave. You're amazing.
 
Dave: Thank you for the opportunity. Like I said, I wish I was more profound and sounded a lot more holy than I do. But we know each other. I'm just Dave and we're friends. And thanks for the opportunity to hopefully speak into somebody's life.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse are so important to your mental health and to living a life of freedom, confidence and peace.  Today, I want to talk about relationship goals. We all have a picture of our perfect relationship and our perfect partner.  What we want out of a healthy relationship varies based on our specific wants and needs. Figuring out what you want, and the type of partner you want is a good way to help yourself find that person.
 
The qualities and characteristics of your dream partner that you focus on are the ones that come to you.  We as survivors get wrapped up in the negatives that we’ve experienced and focus on those.  We concentrate on the red flags we’ve experienced, the toxic traits they exhibited, and how horrible it was on their bad days.  And as we continue to focus on those, we are revictimizing ourselves and attracting people that were just like them. 
 
What were some toxic people traits that your abuser exhibited? Were they aggressive? Manipulative? Unkind to animals? Loud? Think about and identify as many as you can, because this is the last time you’re going to focus on these.
 
That cycle needs to stop.  You deserve a healthy relationship with a partner that respects your boundaries, shows you kindness all the time, and makes you feel happy and confident.  Someone who doesn’t try and break you down and control you.  Love isn’t control.  Love isn’t disrespect. Love isn’t explosive bursts and fighting. Love is respect.  Love is kindness.  Love is understanding. Love is healthy communication.
What is your definition of love?  What characteristics do you want in your partner? Don’t focus on what you don’t want.  Focus on what you do want.
 
I want to do an activity with you.  I want you to take out a piece of paper or the notepad on your phone.  And I want you to sit and really think about the qualities of a partner that you’re looking for.  Are they funny?  Do they make you smile?  Do they bring home flowers or your favorite candy for you?  Are they open to respectfully talking with you or debating?
 
Think 10 years into the future.  What do you have in your healthy relationship?  Do you have open communication?  Do you have silly dance parties?  Do you have movie nights?
 
For me, I need someone with opinions, someone with a sense of humor who can match my enthusiasm for comedy movies. Someone who is outgoing and kind.  Someone who is low-maintenance, because a hyper person is too much for me romantically.  Who loves animals, because my dogs are my babies.  Someone who is communicative and understanding.  Someone who is aspirational. And someone who is grounded, to help me keep my feet on the ground.
 
What are yours?  Make your list.  And really think about these qualities.  After you’ve made your list, focus on those qualities.  Focus on finding someone who fits your description.  Where focus goes, energy flows.  And if you stay positive and focus on the positive attributes of a healthy partner and a healthy relationship, the toxic people will stop being attractive to you, and you’ll stop picking toxic partners and unhealthy relationships. You’ll find your relationship goals and live happily, free and confident.
 
Happy Searching!
 
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Marissa: Welcome back to Healing From Emotional Abuse. Today, I thought it would be really interesting to discuss about how abuse comes in so many different forms. It's not always obvious like being hit or pushed or punched in the face.  Covert female narcissist. Sometimes it's really subtle. And it's subtle, because abusers are really, really good at manipulating and systematically demeaning you and controlling you. Covert Narcissism.And you don't even realize it until you're out of it. So, I wanted to bring on a guest today who went through a lot of control and manipulative abuse. So, it doesn't always seem like what he was enduring was abusive, which is why it was so hard for him to see it when he was in it. But now that he's out of it, he recognized all of the manipulation and the control and the lying and ultimately manifested in wife infidelity. So today, I wanted to bring on a friend of mine, Logan, who is a phenomenal person who endured some really traumatic stuff. He's a local New Jersey musician. He has a big personality. And I don't think he realized until he was out of his narcissistic marriage, how much support he actually had, and how much his community saw what was going on around him. So, I'm really, really excited to bring on Logan today. Hey, Logan, how are you doing today?
 
Logan: Thank you, Marissa, again, for having me for the platform. First and foremost, thank you for being there for me over these past few crazy, crazy months. Not only with what is going on in the world, but going on in my personal life, and my former, I guess marriage. But more importantly, thank you for what you do for other people who have been through way worse. Who are going through way worse situations right now, that you have helped continue to help. I know, I've had you on my show a few times. And a lot of people have taken a lot from that. I just appreciate you and what you do for other people, and what you have gone through and overcome. And just proud of you. And I'm thankful for the platform. And as you always say, you are a champion as well as your other champions.
 
Marissa: Well, thank you for saying that. I really appreciate it. And just know that don't ever compare what you're going through to anyone else. Because every situation has its impact and has its effect on people. And every situation is different. So, what you're going through is not any less severe or hurtful than what anyone else is going through. And I just want you to keep that in mind.
 
Logan: I appreciate that. You know, it's tough when one person is fighting the battle and you find that you're fighting the battle alone when the other person is doing some no stuff.
 
Marissa: Well, so if you don't mind, why don't you tell us your truth?
 
Logan: Sure. Bunch of disclaimers, obviously, I'm not going to go too much into my identity, because I was going to say out of respect, respect is definitely not the word. Out of doing things the right way, I think is the way to say it, I am not here to call anyone out to call any establishments out. I'm not here to play the blame game, I am here to hopefully give something to people who may be going through similar situations on both sides of what what's going on here. If I can help one or two people, and also heal during this, that's a big deal. So again, I appreciate you. I appreciate this. I guess we'll start at the beginning. I kind of broke this up into like three little sections. You know, I'll tell you the story. Kind of the ripple effect because I think as you probably know, there's a lot of ripple effects to family and friends and no other people involved that you see. And then obviously I want to talk about, if it's okay with you the healing which you have been a huge part of and currently being a huge part of. So start at the beginning. So, 10-year relationship, four and a half years married, started out as me trying out for a local jersey band. Obviously I got the gig because I’m an amazing drummer. And she had come on to me. And let me let me say this. I know a bunch of disclaimers here, but there's three sides to every story. And, you know, they say my side her side and the truth. So, this is my side of the story. So, starting from the beginning. So tried out for the band got the part she had come on to me. Uh, we had hung out all the time all the time. On home the constant Facebook messaging. Calling me Boo from the get go. Going she went to the mall invited me to come. This grew into a very, very good friendship, great band relationship. Obviously, a marriage. This was best friends. This was doing everything together. This was working together. This was going through loss together. This was she came home from work. Hey, where are you? This was, hey, come to bed. This is, you know, What do you love about me? This was very real or so I thought because 10 years invested of my life that I will never get back to have it end the way it did. As dishonestly as it did. As deceiving as it did. I'll never get those 10 years back, as a lot of people have told me to give and take was very off in this relationship. And that's something I'll get into later. But to me, this was the real deal. Very good relationship. We this all kind of started with a job change. She was approached to work at a new establishment. Prominent Music Academy in a prominent city. Very good opportunity for her. I was 100% supportive of it. It's something she's been looking for and it was great. The money was right, the benefits were right. It was something that she was excited about. And I was excited for her. She had to break the news to our former job that she was leaving. That turned into a terrible he-said she-said, almost break-up fight. Where I went to bat for her, I stood up for her, I took the fall. I ended up quitting that particular job because of that whole thing. So, she could get this new job. And she appreciated that, you know. I still have letters from very recently that say, hey, like, I appreciate that. And you make me a better person and all this stuff that I believed to be very, very true. Because this wasn't something like you know, I'm sure a lot of the other people you talk to, where things are falling apart or things are abusive, or things are crumbling, or communication is breaking down. This just kind of was like a light switch. It kind of happened. So, she gets the new job is working crazy full-time hours. And I knew this would be an adjustment for her. I knew this would be an adjustment for us because again, everything together and she gets the new job and is working there for about five weeks. And through this, I was able to kind of help transition from the other job and deal with the fallout of that. Helped her a bit financially because there was some downtime for work for her between jobs. Again, you know, being a husband, that is just what you do no question. So, the hours are different. She's not home as much. And I noticed this. So, I suggest to her, “Hey, like, let's do a date night every week because we're kind of passing ships in the night,” or whatever, you know, I don't think anything's going on. But I noticed, you know, I'm smart, unfortunately, because I do believe ignorance is bliss. But every week she would take me out or I would take her out when we'd alternate. So we did that for a couple weeks. So, at this point, like I said, she's working there for about five weeks and it's an adjustment. You know, it's great. We had some great date nights, I thought everything was good. You know, like the only little things I had noticed was like, I wasn't on her social media as much which again, like in this day and age I my tastes on social media and posting all that stuff have very much changed. I shamelessly promote my projects. I'll be the first to admit that but I think there's a lot of disadvantages to social media when it comes to kind of having the next person in a relationship kind of queued up or talking and that's something, I don't like about it. That's kind of soured me. But anyway, I noticed I wasn't really int the social media of hers as much whatever you know, even like when she wished me happy birthday was very just like whatever. So we do the date nights and this is like the fourth date night it's my turn she's working there for again only five weeks and this is a place that is walkable from our home. This is a place that is two blocks away from where I work which again makes it so much crazier that physically she was so close, I should say they were close, this whole time we do the date night I said what do you want to do you want to see Frozen II know let's stay in and I was like alright, well, What movie do you want me to Redbox? I'll cook your dinner she I gave her some choices. She said Toy Story 4. Have you seen this comes into play? Have you seen Toy Story or any of the toy stories Marissa?
 
Marissa: I've seen the first three. I'm afraid to watch the fourth. Admittedly.
 
Logan: You know the story of Toy Story where Woody is the old faithful toy. Whereas Buzz Lightyear is the new shiny toy that you know Andy kind of falls in love with. I know you haven't seen the fourth one, but we ended up watching the fourth one that night. It's a three-hour movie. I cook her dinner, we stay at home. This is November 21, Marissa, one week before Thanksgiving, and she's noticeably texting for three hours. To me, that's a red flag, because we have all the same friends, obviously, except the new friends from the new job. And I know it's not her sister, who now identifies as transgender. And, again, is just one of the closest people in my life. And it is a big part of the story moving forward, I think, because again, there's a ripple effect, and it affects everybody. I know it's not her, because it's too late for that. And I kind of like get those red flags like those warning signals. You know, it's not high school, I'm not going to choose her. I'm not going to grab her phone. It's because like, we've never had that. We've been together for 10 years, like, I've held this girl's hand through every little problem financially, or with her family. Like heck, so I just shoot her a look. This day night, we're working on us. And she's texting the whole thing. And that's not like us, you know, like, we text we're on our phones or whatever, like during movies, or we watch our TV shows every week. But this was like, almost obviously blatant. From everybody that I've talked to everybody, including people who have been cheated on, dude, she wanted you to notice. Bro, she wanted you to catch her. Because this wasn't an honest conversation. This was a this is an oops, and this is how you're going to find out kind of thing. Looking back on that, you know, they always say hindsight is 20-20. But anyway, she sets in for three hours during the movie. Hey, thanks for dinner. I, really quick, a shot her a look, kind of like, Hey, what's up? And she shot me just kind of like a nasty little look. Which is fine. You know, like, tough girl, whatever, that's fine. And you know, I didn't bring it up. I didn't say anything. You know. So, watch the movie, thanks for dinner. She went to bed I cleaned up. She's under the covers texting for another hour. So, this is four hours of texting, like doesn't address it. You know, the only thing I did was give her that glance. Something's wrong. Like, when you have that mentality in a way that is cheating. I don't know how you feel about that. Especially in a marriage.
 
Marissa: Cheating. In my opinion, I don't view cheating is just a physical thing. Like I can, I can have feelings for somebody very intense feelings, and not act on them. But that's still doing a disservice to the situation or the relationship that I'm in.
 
Logan: Yeah, exactly. Or marriage. You know, in my case, marriage where we've, we've made a commitment, like my grandfather had married us, that means a lot to me. You know, the ring, being a circle and all that kind of stuff. You know, everyone has different views on marriage and stuff like that. But I took it very seriously. You know, you say the word you say these vows because they are vows. It's an oath, you say for better or for worse, because in situations such as this, you know, like, you try your best. You fight. And for me anyway, it was for better or for worse. And I definitely went down swinging like an idiot, as you'll find out. And again, this is not the end of the story. This is the very beginning. So, I hope you don't cut me off. So, moving forward, so this is four hours of texting. So, I feel it in my gut, and I just go sleep on the couch. Like, you know, like you ever kick someone out of the bed Marissa It's like, you're in trouble, like, Go sleep on the couch. But it wasn't even like that, like I just couched myself. You know, I didn't like, you know, like, I was going to jump to conclusions. And I just went and I was just thinking. Like, in my gut I felt like there's like, you can't be talking to someone else. Like, she's got this new job like you worry about new people and 4:30 in the morning, she comes in the living room. "Hey, like, where are you? Like, what's going on? Why aren't you in bed?” I go, “I'm just thinking.” She goes, "Well, what are you thinking about?” And I go, “Something's wrong. I was like, I feel it in my gut.” And she goes into the whole, "Hey, it’s this new job. Like, it's a big adjustment.” And I knew it was like, to be fair, it completely was. That's why I proposed date night, you know, that wasn't, you know, it's like more lies, you know, and like, she doesn't really lie, and she's a bad liar. So again, it was like, this is like the beginning of feeling like, I don't know this person. So, I just look at her and I just go Is there someone else? And she just starts crying, which to me tells me everything. So, there's a bunch of ways I could have handled this. Looking back in retrospect, I know this sounds terrible, but this is just the beginning of the story. Like, I should have just said this is not okay. Like get out of here.
 
Marissa: And like you said before hindsights 20-20 so you in your character would never do that. Because you truly believed the best in situation. And it's so easy to write off and justify as well. Maybe it is a new job or maybe she's just stressed or… It's so easy for us when we're being manipulated or lied to justify on behalf of the person who's lying to us, because we want to believe that it's the person that we fell in love with. Or, you know that, that person is still there deep down. Does that make sense?
 
Logan: I mean, you're hitting me right in all the feels right now. Like, I appreciate you saying that no, because like you hit it right on the head. Like, I'm a fixer. You know what I mean? Like, something's wrong, how can I help? And again, I am not perfect. And I'm not here to toot my own horn. But this is our challenge in our marriage right now. Now, let me see this. Is there someone else? She starts crying. My whole life changed that moment. And it was like those hours I was thinking. I knew, you know? Like, I knew it.  And I say, “Who is it?" It's a chick. It was a chick she worked with for five weeks. So, to me, first of all, that's okay. That sucks. You're still my wife. You know, this is our thing. Let's figure this out. And I was upset. Like, I was upset. I wasn't angry. I wasn't crying. I was just kind of like, quiet. She goes, “Why aren't you yelling at me? Like, why are you mad?” Like, almost like she expected it, you know, like me to freak out. And I think, had things been the other way. You know, if I had done something like that, or not cry, I feel like I would literally have my head chopped off right now. Like, I'm not even joking. Yeah, it was crazy. So, to me, you know, we ended up going to bed together with kind of like this problem. And I woke up the next day and this is November 22. And I called my roommate from college who was a marriage counselor, because to me, I'm a fixer. She's confused. She's going through something, it garners sympathy at this point. In my mind, this is just a feeling. She had said to me, it's just a crush, and I'm confused. Okay. Now looking back, I take everything with a grain of salt. Looking back because of the series of lies when you lie to me so many times, if you get caught in a lie with me, the trust is broken. If I catch you with your hand in the cookie jar, anything you say to me afterwards is a lie, which I've learned firsthand. But anyway, I'm on the phone with the roommate, marriage counsellor, I'm on the phone with ministers from my church who have been fantastic. And my roommate, who's like, “Hey, man, I'm going to take off my friend hat. Look, man, I gotta call right down the middle. This is what you do. You need to write down a list of things and in our marriage, this is not okay. Not necessarily what she's going through. But the way she has acted. Like, for example, you guys are having a date night. You guys are working on you. So just the fact that she is texting somebody else, whoever it may be during date night, that's not okay. The fact that it's someone she's interested in, not okay, for a marriage.” You know, you hear things from like a counsellor or a therapist, it's like, you know, they call it very down the middle. And they kind of have like that outsider looking in kind of thing, which is very cool to hear. And he goes, “Let me talk to her too.” So, I speak to her about it. I do write the whole, that's not okay, I write this whole little thing that I do end up reading to her. So, I bring it up to her to talk to him and she doesn't do it, like immediately, like she waits like a week. And this is the weird thing where it's like, this is another red flag. Like, I felt like I was fighting, you know, like fighting still. Not to like fix anything. Let me say this. Don't be afraid to be who you are. If you are gay, or straight or trans or whatever, be who you are. I'm not saying like, I have no expertise in it. But I have a lot of people on my show who have gone through things like this who have said like, how scared they were when they had to come out. I've had wrestlers come on. Former women's tag team champions and major companies that are a couple. And those ladies have had just inspiring coming out parties on national television and stuff like that. Like I'm all for it. Please. and I said these words to her. I said, No one should have to hide who they are. Honesty is the best policy. There's a way this all could have played out where it would have been hard for us to be friends, I think, but you had my support. There was a way for this, or this came out where you had my family’s support. There was a way where this went down where you had our mutual friends support. So, it just felt like I was fighting here. And she had one foot out the door. It was like that I caught her texting and like now it was like okay for her to be distant from me. And this is where it got weird because this is leading into Thanksgiving. But like, she wouldn't like come home. You know what I mean? Like she goes work for eight hours and then like go to the gym or go to the studio, which is like normal, but like, she would like stack them in blocks. So, like she would come home and I'm thinking its guilt or she's hiding or she's really having a tough time. Which I got. You know, again, I was sympathetic. What comes next? I don't know, I was just trying to fix everything. And maybe it wasn't my place, but I still went down swinging. So, the following week Thanksgiving. She finally ends up talking to my roommate, the marriage counsellor. And he says to her, she needs to go to therapy, not for what she's going through. But for a lot of things. The plan was come Thanksgiving. The plan was to talk to the family. And just because they knew we were going through something. Like even hers, because I teach her sister at the time drum lessons. And she would go, Hey, she's not texting me. She's ignoring me. And I'm like, it's not just you kid. Like, it's everybody. Like our band is getting offered shows. And like, she's not checking in. We have like a comicon group,  she's not checking in. And like, again, goes to like, now we're not getting shows or like now we're not getting events. And like, I'm kind of like protecting her. I'm like not saying anything. Like she's going through something. So, everyone's just kind of thinks like we're fighting. But it was just like a light switch. And it was just like, we're at an impasse. She just got further and further away. Wouldn't come home. I talked to the dad and she's well aware of this, who I'm very close with, Thanksgiving morning. And I said, Hey, like, I just wanted you to know I did right by your daughter. Like, I haven't done anything. She's going through something, please take care of her. Please support her. I can't say what it is. He goes, “What did she do?" And to me, like, that speaks volumes. He's like, you came to me. He's like, if I thought you did something wrong, I would have been over your apartment. But anyway, Thanksgiving. So, the plan is, we're going to speak to her family and say, “Hey, we're going through something, she's going to go to therapy, which there is no shame in that.” And we were going to say this to the family. So, this is the day after Thanksgiving. This is Thanksgiving too, with her family. And again, we're it's just like, the phone is like buzzing, buzzing, buzzing, it's noticeably like painfully buzzing vibrating on the coffee table. And like, we're all just like kind of looking at it. And she's not picking up and it's super awkward. Nothing. Nothing. No, no, no, it again, it's just like, like, lie after lie and crazy shenanigans. But basically, I text her I'm like, hey, like, you know, like, are you going to say something? And she's like, No, I want to leave on the phone. So, we left. We didn't say anything. My thought was also like, hey, honesty's the best policy, like we don't have to say everything. But we could say, Hey, we're going through something, you know, we can approach this as a family. But again, still, to this day, I don't know how much, which is very unfair to me, her family does or does not know. Because I am still getting, “Hey, how are you guys doing okay, during this whole thing?” and I'm just like, you know, it's not my place to say anything. It's certainly not my side of the story. It's just kind of like, I'm good. You know, it's just, it's so unfair and crazy, but I haven't even got to the coup de gras yet. This is just the warm up. But I'll fast forward a little bit. Two weeks in, she feels farther away. Like she's not eating. I'm not eating. We're both like kind of sad. I’m doing a lot of stupid things, Marissa. I re-proposed. I redid our proposal. I had done flowers going up the beach and the music and the video. Got down on one knee. All these things. So, I recreated that, I had the roses going up into our apartment. I bought like a super expensive like necklace that was like about commitment and yada. And like, like if I'm going down, I'm going down swinging. If I'm going down, I’m going down swinging. And like I cook dinner, she comes home from work relay follows the roses, she's into it, I get down on one knee again. Now this is what annoys me, I'm an idiot for these grand gestures. Like anyone listening, like, if you're like a person who give,  gives, gives, kind of look back and see what you're getting as well. Like, don’t be selfish. But don't be so selfless that you're blind because everyone you know; you get those opinions. And everyone says the give and take was way off. And it was never going to work because of that, which I which I learned firsthand. I'm mad at myself Because as I mentioned earlier that I spent 10 years working on this, taking care of and protecting and looking out for this person. And then I'm madder that I did it again. To me that's just like an ultimate gesture of, I'm going to take care of you. I don't know how to explain it. You know, like, I literally gave so many pieces of my heart away, maybe to a fault. That was the way I love her. And that was the way like I would always give things to her and I got down on one knee for her two times. Looking back, I'm just like, man, and she. She came in for the second proposal. She was blown away and she appreciated me trying there were some tears. But she didn't like look at the necklace like at all. Like you know how you like you look at the ring like she didn't look at it. And she kind of like I'm sitting on the floor and she's like, she's like kind of unsure about it. And then she like goes and eats and I'm just like sitting in the dark on the living floor. And that was like another thing that like made me feel like just like I was fighting by myself. Especially after this grand gesture. Next couple days. I'm over my buddy’s who a huge part of my life I played in bands with we play music together. He played our wedding. He'll be playing my divorce party. Yeah, I'm over there. And I, earlier in the day because like I mentioned, we weren't eating, I dropped her off a vegan pork roll, egg and cheese. And I said, Hey, like, make sure you eat. I left it with her boss who who's trying to hire me. It's like, Oh, you should come work here too. I'm like, No, no, like, this is her thing. She loves it here. I mean, you know, I left a rose, because again, like, I'm an idiot. And she calls me when she gets out of work. After eight-hour shift on Saturday night, I'm over my buddy Ed’s. And she's like, Hey, thank you so much. Like, that meant a lot to me and was like, Yeah, like, I know, you weren't eating and like, I know, we're going through a lot and, you know, just no drama. Like, I want to make sure you eat. She's like, yeah, I'm like, did you eat the whole thing? Yep, ate the whole thing. Okay, great. And she goes, Okay, well, I'm going to go, go get a bite to eat. And I'm just like, again, it was just like, like, the wording of things. And like, everything was just kind of like dancing around. And I go, well, like, like, I just brought you food. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, you know, again, it's like more red flags. She goes, Well, yeah, but I know just eight but I'm going to go out with some friends. I'm like, like, why don't you just say that the first time you know what I mean? It's shady. And then I go is like, is so and so going to be there. You know, the confusion? Well, yeah, but it's going to be like, Oh, look, I'll come home if you want. And I'm like, Look, like I said, a minute ago. Like, this isn't high school. Like, this is your life now. Like, I'm not going to tell you like not to go out with your friends, whatever. I come home, she's in the home for like, another five hours. Like, it's crazy. You don't just like, go do what you want, like, you still live with me. You're still married. Like, we need to communicate a lot more because I'm obviously like, still fighting. Like, we're at the point where I caught you texting and you're confused about something. But that's where we are. No further. Or that's where I thought we were. The word we kind of went away after I caught her texting. We have a like a fight about it. And we don't really fight about it a lot. But we had a fight about it. I legit that you know that on my part, I would like to first to admit it, like we fought and I said, Hey, say what's up to so and so for me, whatever, you know, which was the object of her affection and still seemingly so. You know, she was hurt by that. And she came at me, which again, garnered more sympathy for me like, well, this is why like I you know, I wake up every day, I feel like I'm a different person. Like, again, legit going through something. Like, this is why I thought has these dark thoughts about ending it, and yada, yada. And she goes into a very detailed description about how she had some very dark thoughts. And to me all of my feelings and emotions and thoughts about our us, and our relation went right out the window. We're in the middle of a fight. Come here. Come here, sit down. Are you okay? Like whatever. She goes on about it, and she’s actually confused, going through something. I mean, anyone would feel sympathy. It’s like, again, trying to fix things. I immediately text her parents. She didn't me too. What if something had happened? And I didn't say anything to anyone. So, I'm thinking, Oh, they'll come over when they just see my texts They just said, oh, like she should go to therapy. I'm just like, UGH! You know what I mean? Like, that's where we were two weeks ago. It's just like, and I can't say anything. Like, I'm protecting her. She's going through something and I can't, we can't make progress. And again, I realize now that I was the only one trying to make progress. She was headed in a different direction. Here's a little foreshadowing. She ends up staying with her parents for the weekend, which to me is like, awesome. Like, I was like, I will drive you there. To me She is safe. She's with them. I know she's going home to them. And she can have a dialogue with them about anything. She comes back the next day, just to pick something up and she texts me Hey, is it okay? If I come over? I'm like, like, you live here. I'm like, I didn't kick you out. I'm like, are you okay? She comes She parks. She's going to stay at her parents. Another couple night, she's going to pick up some stuff. And I know she's coming from work and like an idiot I go out I opened the car door for. I am old school and I hold her hand. I walk up the steps open the door, and I look at her hand. Her wedding ring is off. I know she's working with this person; you know what I mean? And like, to me, that's just like another like little step. Hey, my wedding rings off. I'm like, what is the dialogue between.. I mean, is there a dialogue? Like, there can't be a dialogue. Like, I know, there's a lot of texting and like, is its romantic texting? And like, surely this person who I left out a huge detail here Marissa, this person is also in a relationship or so I was told. Which is not okay. So, you have a married woman and a person in a relationship. I don't know what the dialogue is or how this said person I will use the term Buzz Lightyear you know, being the new shiny toy. Like, you know, someone's married, you know, like, I don't know how you I don't know how that conversation goes. And this is like where I kind of talked to you about this Marissa. But it felt like the texting was very aggressive. And it felt like somebody else like it really still almost does feel like somebody else was driving. You know, like, I obviously wasn't driving. She did a lot of the drive but it almost felt very controlling.
 
Marissa: So, there is a theme when specifically, kids in high school, I used to teach this to them. When your partner is texting you over and over and over or calling you over and Over and over. That is, like you said, it's a means of control. It's a way to make sure you know where they are, what they're doing, at all times. And so, I can't really comment on whether Buzz Lightyear if you will, was being controlling in reality, but in theory, that action, those actions do sum up to typically be abusive behavior.
 
Logan: First of all, like, just like the fact that like, 10 years of me doing everything, like you don't even have to hear from me, everyone will tell you like doing living my life, literally her uncle's words for her. Which I did, to a fault. You know, how much you rank, you know, like this person you've known at the start of the texting. Five weeks, now we're going on seven weeks, eight weeks, that person ranks over me. You know what I mean? And it's just like, like, it takes me a while to trust someone as a friend, you know? Like, so again, that was like another red flag, it was very quick. And that's another thing that made it feel like controlling and this person just outright like disrespecting our marriage and that person, Buzz Lightyear’s relationship or alleged relationship at the time. And this going on with a place that they both work at, which I think is, you know, that's, again, you don't want that coming back to the place you work at, or she's not wearing her ring. To me, that's just like, oh, like, you are out. And this is someone like I'm away for two days, like, she's texting me constantly. Where are you? Where are you? Like, I couldn't be away for hours without this girl missing me. It's again, like a light switch. Like this person. not to say changed her, obviously, you know, allegedly, she has some repressed feelings. It was just like a done deal. Like, she's at her parents for a couple days not wearing the ring. I'm super upset about the ring thing. I'm talking to my minister. And he's just kind of like, man, like, even He's like, Damn, you know. So, the man of God. So basically, she's at her parents for a couple days. And this is where things get a little weird, like her mom calls me about concerning the younger daughter's, who identifies as a boy now rather drugless. And it was something very trivial. And I was like, hey, okay, cool. And the mom goes, so house, I'll just say your wife, not the new names, how's your wife doing? And I said, I don't know. How is she? And she goes, she didn't come home last night? And I said, No. And I'm like, she's not with you? No. So to this day, I don't know where my wife was that night. You know what I mean? But this is two weeks after I caught her texting. You know, it's just so fast. So, like, my head is still spinning. That's not okay. We all text her and said, Hey, like, what if something happened to you? Like, none of your family knew where you were. That's not okay. And it turned into I was at a party, I ended up crashing in a guest room. So, we're and again, it was like, this is like not marriage behavior. You know what I mean? This is like, like high school, college. But you know what I mean? It was just like, no accountability. And again, she was hiding from everyone and couldn't get back to anyone. So again, it wasn't like just me being pushed away. I gave her space, and it was just like radio silence. You know, it was really, really weird. And I'm just like, super confused. I know, I'm losing my wife, apparently, like I'm losing my wife to someone else. But there's like, no way that she confused. She's going through something like I sympathize with her. Like, she's not answering anybody. So, this is where things get crazy. So, I, Marissa I am like sleeping on couches. I am staying with my dad. I'm going up to Brooklyn. I'm living out of a suitcase, which I ended up living out of for months. That's what you do for someone you love. You know, this was the deal breaker for me. So, this is December 19. I believe things happen for a reason. And the way this day played out. Like I, the night before, like two nights before, like, I was hurting, like food didn't have tastes. I knew like I was losing her. Like I didn't think I was like, physically losing her to somebody. Yeah, because it just had been too short of a time and we're married and oh, I’ll rewind to do this very important detail. This is like three weeks after texting someone she had said, like, hey, like, I want to get a separation. And she'd come home from work. And I was like, this is like right after she said she had the dark thoughts. I was rubbing her back and I had said, Hey, like no drama, no drama, like I tried to show her like I loved her in a different way. Like I care about you this and especially with the dark thoughts and all that and she kind of disappeared and kitchen and we have a small kitchen. She never came out. I went in there and she was rubbing her hands. Now the rubbing her hands kind of comes into play a little bit later. But it's kind of like a tell, you know? But she's rubbing her hands and like, Hey, no drama, what's going on? She goes, I think we need separation. Like, what? Like, this fast? You're confused about something and it was weird because she was like looking back now. She was like, I think I'm 70% gay. I think I'm 80% gay. And like, I told her I was like, Well look, the only thing I ask is that we are honest with everybody because I need to heal. I need a support system and I'd been protecting her for the most part to this point and our bands getting shows. And then, she's just like nowhere to be found on answering her family and, like, we have to tell your family and she's just like curled up into a ball. I was I wasn't even yelling or anything. No, no, no, like, horrified at the thought of telling her family and I understand like, whatever. So that was like another crazy night. So, the ring, her wanting to get separation is like, I didn't do anything. You know what I mean? Like, we were doing fine until she got this news. Like new job, new person, boom, like, just like that. Six days before Christmas, Thursday night. I'm working at my job. Long day. And I'm going through my notebook, little green notebook, I look at the back of it. And there's all these cute little messages from her like, that's us. And this was, like, very recent, like, probably like, right when she started the new job, but these are reasons. And it said our names forever and Heart, heart and my name love her name. I was like, I have to talk to her like maybe it's goodbye. Maybe it's like one last grand gesture made again, which I'm an idiot for the grand gestures and I'm a sucker and for me, like I have to let her know how I feel like I can't do this without her.  I literally said this to her dad on the phone. Rough day at work, and of texting my friend. He's like, Look, man, he's like sometimes those little conversations make all the difference in the world. And to anyone listening, communication is super key. And we completely failed at that. We completely failed mostly because of her not being honest. Mostly because of her hiding. Us spending time apart. You know, I'm sure I could have communicated better. But there's a lot of emotions. I tested last week my friend he says those little conversations make all the difference in the world. So, I text my buddy. I have the best friends in the world, Marissa.  My buddy who I was jamming with, that I mentioned earlier, he didn't really know what was going on. He knew something was going on. Because again, I was like protecting her. I was like, Hey, man, I was like, grab the guitars because you played our wedding. So, he knew he knew exactly what song. I’m texted her mom. She is at her parents baking cookies with the kid’s sister. I need a hail Mary, are you in? And like I have the best friends in the world. He goes Yeah, I’m in. Let me know where when to me. That means everything. You know, we're going to do this thing where he knew what song we're ready to go. This is the grand gesture. This is the say anything, on the front lawn with the boombox, whatever, get through work. He's ready to go. So, when things go bonkers, crazy. I start my car to go over to her parents. Car doesn't start. Okay, that's weird. Doesn't start again. I'm stuck 45 minutes. Dad has to come get me jumped the car. We go back to his house. I steal his car. The timeline has completely changed. I taught I'm talking to her dad on the phone, who again, I'm very close with. Apparently, she was able to have a conversation with him about what was going on. And he goes Hey, man, like she just went home, to where our apartment is. My friend was out of the equation at that point. But it's okay, I'm going to go there and just have a conversation with her. I have like legit questions like, legit, like, wanted to communicate. And I text her "Hey, can I come get my pillow?” Like, don't hear anything back, driving. I’m on the phone with her pops and yeah, her kind of knows now. So, like we're having an honest conversation. And I'm like, you don't think like she's doing anything with anyone, though. Like, she's just like going through something and figuring something out. He's like, no, like, No, not at all, whatever. And I'm like, Alright, I drive over there with no response to the text message. This is the ending of this long story to anyone listening who thinks they know someone, or thinks they can trust someone on a friendship level or a spouse level or human level. This is when I knew that I was less than nothing. I got no response to the text. I drive to our apartment. I am across the street from our apartment, I see the lights on. According to her dad, she had just gotten home. I'm not going to barge in, you know, I pick up the phone I call. Rings, rings, rings. I see the lights on the apartment. And I see the blinds go up and down. And again, just like with the tears, like I knew. I knew that there was someone in my home with my wife. It wasn't anger. It was it was pain. I call again, lines go up and down again. And so, this is all within 30 seconds spans. And this is just like again, the bad movie script. The lie after lie after lie. And I walk up the parking lot. I walk up the steps. And as I'm walking up the steps, this is all within 30 seconds of me getting there, the phone calls and the blinds, calls me on the phone. This is what I get Marissa. *Sleepy Voice* “Hey, whoa, hey, hey, Logan. Hey, what do you what's? What's going on?" Like, you didn't get my text? Like, it was like you were sleeping. You know, trying to be like asleep. I was like, "Hey, just talk to your dad. No, you just got home and I see the blinds going up and down. I you know, I text you get my stuff.” Okay. Oh, yeah, no problem. So, I unlocked the door. I pushed the door open the door stops with her hand. She's standing there in her PJs. The TV's off, everything's off. The lights are on. Holding the door with my pillow. And all of our wedding photos are down. Like you cannot write this. I mean, this is my home, like I have my suitcase, I have my guitar. There is no way like why I'm doing this. You're having sleepovers, there's no way. But like, I just see all the pictures. It was like, if you want a gut punch, if you want to feel less than nothing, if you want to feel like you wasted 10 years of your life, being a friend, let alone a husband, or a band member or anything to anyone if you want to feel less than nothing, just looking around and seeing all the pictures down. Like I knew, like I knew. And this wasn't a first-time thing like because, you know, this person had to be if she had just gotten this person had to be waiting in our apartment. Like the fact that all the pictures were down and in her pajamas hands me my pillow, “Have a good night, Logan.” And like, like, that's the end of the conversation. And I said hold on. I was like, “Hey, can I come in and talk like I really want to talk to you. I want to get my stuff like I want to get my razor on get my charger…” “Now's not a good time.” “Is there someone here?” She goes, “Logan It's been a very long day, I was able to speak to my parents about what's going on. Finally.” Which is great. In reality, and goes like, "I just needed someone to talk to.” Which to me, admits that there's someone in our apartment right now. Which to me killed me on not just on a, there's someone in my home, what's going on level. But like, on an emotional level, like I needed someone to talk to. I said, like, when you talk to your parents, like I'll be there for you. And like, it's like you're confiding in this person that you haven't even known for, I guess you’ve known for a little over a month. Like you're confiding, like, again. I think there's a very big difference between what you're going through. And that doesn't excuse your behavior towards me or our home, or our marriage. Especially our home. That's a whole different conversation. But I go is it who I think it is? She goes, we're just hanging out Logan, which again made me feel like some you say your parents. And, again, made me feel like the dad and again is like another lie. Like, I know what hanging out me. Do you know what I mean? And it's just like, this wasn't the first time like, I could just send the blinds went up. I like I knew and like, because you're married? Our home, I go in our bed? Doesn't someone who has an answer for everything doesn't say a word. Just like she doesn't even look the same. She looks like a completely different person. Like I don't know how to explain it. Like, this is not the person I knew. Not just your actions, but like you look completely different than like… and he was just like, this is December 19. Six days before Christmas. I just, like gave her like the most, how could you look and I just walked away. She follows me out the door And lie, lie, lie. Like, I believe you after I caught you? After all this stuff? Like, you pick up the phone, you pretend you're tired. Like you know what I mean? Like, wide awake. This is the last thing that I ever said to her. So, this is December 19 the last thing that I ever said to her. Right now, the only communication she has with me is through my sister, And through my lawyer. I said I've taken care of you for the past 10 years. I've buried your pets. I've held your hand through every little obstacle in your life. I have pulled you out of the ocean twice. And I said you don't have a leg to stand on. That’s the last thing I ever said to her and I walked away
 
Marissa: How did that feel?
 
Logan: Surreal. It's it felt like two things. The first thing was like I felt like an idiot. I felt like not just because of that but like for like I just put so much into it. It was just so disrespectful and if you take me out of the equation, like take me like my feelings out of the equation. In our home? ln our bed? Like when I went to get my stuff, Marissa, like I kept my head down. I got my stuff out of there. But when I saw the bed and how close it was to my stuff and like you know, I kind of have like my logos, and drums, and my jerseys, and like there it was just like I don't know this person. And you are not thinking about the ramifications of this. You are not thinking how this affects my relationship your family. You are not thinking about how this affects the place you work at. You obviously could give a crap about the band because that fell apart like immediately. It was just like at what cost, you know? Like this is something she has repressed This is something she needed to find this assumption needed to do. Okay, there was a way we could have done this the proper way paperwork, honesty, communication, not in my bed. To answer your question. Another way I felt was like all this like pain that I was feeling and like heartbreak. It just went away. It was like a load off my shoulders. I was like, I'm an idiot like I'm a fool. That's the worst thing that you can do to someone in a in a relationship in a marriage regardless And I asked you this Marissa, like, I don't think her situation excuses her behavior. Especially in the timeframe, the dishonesty, the lie after lie after lie, and especially the where. You know, this person would absolutely not take a bullet for me like, no question. But this person, like, could give a crap about me. And that is that is kind of the end of, there's a little bit of fall out. But that is kind of the end of the story for me. Again, I just don't feel that that excuses putting me in this position. I've lost my home, I've essentially lost a big part of my family, you know, you hate to say it, but like, things are not going to be the same. And it was just like, I can't understand what she was going through. But I don't think I deserved to be treated the way I was or lied to. Especially it was just like, new job, new person, new person in my home. I haven't been more disrespected ever in my life. And the fact that it's in my home, which I love, and built, and so many things have happened there. I just don't think one thing excuses the other.
 
Marissa: No, I totally agree and this is a really, really, really bad analogy. It's similar to when Kevin Spacey came out of the closet because he was accused of assaulting Anthony Rapp, who I've mentioned in previous podcast episodes is like one of my favorite Broadway actors. But when he came out and said, Oh, well, you know, surprise, I'm gay. I did that because I'm gay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You don't do horrible things and treat people with disrespect and do bad things to people Because you identify with the LGBTQ community. Not only does that do a horrible thing, for the LGBTQ community, you are doing a grave disservice to the people who have been fighting for basic human rights and decency and respect. And you are literally shitting on those efforts. But also, that's a scapegoat, and that's gaslighting. And that's horrible. So, back to what you were saying. No. her sexuality or sexual identity should not affect the way she treats her husband, or you or anyone. Those two things are mutually exclusive.
 
Logan: I mean, I lived it. I feel that way. And again, like it's funny, Marissa because that metaphor you've used. So many people have used that same exact metaphor like that. I've spoken to the Kevin Spacey example. That particular one, it's crazy that you said that. Like I've heard that from so many people. And that's, that's how I feel. Again, I've said this a million times, there's a way to do this, like, you want it out, like you wanted to drop me like a bad habit. There's someone new, you know, Logan's out new person and like I lived it to the fact where it was in my apartment. You know, I don't know what's going on. But it has completely uprooted everything I have built for the past 10 years. And that's fine. You know, I want to talk about the healing a little bit. It was like I was falling, you know, and every single person I know, including her family are just like here for me. Usually with these things. You get sides. And you get he said she said, Well, everyone's like, hey, like, your good guy. You're good man. And like, to me, it's just like, like, that's great. But like you get sick of hearing it, because you're just like, that's why I was a doormat, because, you know, people mistake kindness for weakness. Like, it literally happened to me. You know, this is after I went to battle for her so many times or stepped up or gave her the princess treatment. I was less than dirt. You know, I didn't matter. I think maybe it was easier for her to do it that way. But just because suddenly, you know, that happens to people. I wish I hadn't spent 10 years of my life on something that would end like this. She took someone into our home. That's how it ended. And to me that's like, the ultimate not even slap in the face. That's an understatement. It's just disrespectful. And you don't realize the ripple effect. Like my family, they have done everything to take care of her. Like I said, like we bought that bed, we built that bed. It's weird. Like, everyone kind of checks in you kind of get that hindsight’s 20-20. They're all kind of like, yeah, we're good. Like, we're good on her. You know, my uncle called me on Christmas. He's like, yeah, like you shouldn't try to go back. You know what I mean? Like, her family with me is all like, we want to keep you and like come over anytime. And then they gave me like the best Christmas presents. Like I finally got them in like March because I hadn't seen them. And her dad had passed something down to me and her little brother had given me like this momentum that I keep on me all the time. And every single card said your family no matter what your family. And it's just amazing. It's overwhelming. It's confusing. You've experienced love in so many different ways. Like when I moved out, I had six guys with me and they just man they had my they knew that was a hard day for me. Especially when we're in the bedroom and It's like we're mushy now. Like everyone's in there telling me their problems and like we all fall in love you, bro. Love you. And it's just like, it's so sappy and mushy. I'm so appreciative of the people who are real, you know, the people who are honest, like the people I really do trust. Because like I say, hindsight is 20-20. You look back. The things that her family has said about her. Like, I've heard the I've heard the words coward. I've heard the words immature. I've heard combinations of words that I cannot say on your show, from, you know, like mutual friends that that have taken it very personally. Not only because what she did to me to our home, but she's flat out abandoned them as well. You know, it was a new job, new period, it was just like all for this one person, which again, is very strange to me. I never got anything from her in terms of an apology. The night after, so it would be the morning after I caught her. I got a text about talking about it and she knew I was mad, wasn't an apology. It was, “I know you're mad, but let's talk about  it at this time, this place with my dad.” I didn't answer. And then I got an email,  two months almost to the day after catching her. And then I got an email saying, “I know things got crazy. And I know you're probably angry, and you sit on top, and I understand but…” Like, things got crazy? Like, you're not even owning anything.
 
Marissa: Do you think That's a way for her to manipulate the situation. I'm not trying to lead you, I’m just asking.
 
Logan: Oh, I 100% do, because in interactions that I've had with her through my lawyer, and through my sister, there has been so many like little things. I'm like, Alright, well, this is this. And she owes me this. And she's kind of like, No, I don’t. It's like, because I caught her lying. Everything's a lie. So, it's 100% like that they given the emails very strategic. And like she didn't even have words; you know what I mean. And now she's got words, but nothing she has said to me has had any merit because of the amount of lie after lie after lie. And again, it's all strategy at this point. So again, like, just be careful about who you choose to trust. Be careful about who you choose to be in love with or give yourself to, because everyone has said this to me. Even my best of friends and their families and be like, Hey, man, the give and take this is never going to work because a give and take was way off. You gave and she took. And you look back and you see it. And that's why I think it was so easy to disrespect me and disrespect our home to anyone listening right now like is a huge takeaway, believe it or not, if you are in a relationship where you give, and you think it's like your job just to give, look around and see what you're getting back, see if, if you do something little have a little accomplishment, and that person is supporting you. I don't know, like I say hindsight is 20-20 it's just given and take, it's such a huge part of  a relationship.
 
Marissa: Thank you for sharing that. And you're right, it is really important to evaluate the equality in the relationship. If you're in a relationship where you don't feel that you can trust them, or that you're being respected or that the communication is off and you feel afraid to bring things up to them. That might not be a healthy relationship. And it's hard in the moment. It's a yellow flag or a red flag depending on the degree of the situation. But it's really important to really take a look at that and not ignore it and justify it. And it's so much easier said than done. Problems like that don't generally get better, they usually get worse because narcissists will push boundaries to see what they can get away with. And you can kind of see that in the story, Logan where your Is it an ex-wife now? Or are you still technically married?
 
Logan: As of the release date of this recording, I would say not married.
 
Marissa: Okay, so you can kind of see that progression with you with your ex-wife. First, it was probably texting a little bit and pulling back when she started working at that place and met this other person. And then it was texting all night. And then it was inviting the person into your home kicking you out of the home. And it's really all about boundary pushing and seeing what she can get away with and what she can't get away with. And ultimately it led to her winning and getting what she wanted. And you feeling the way that you're feeling. Does that make sense?
 
Logan: It makes perfect sense. It's like, like getting what you want it. I understand like people fall out of love like I understand like relationships are hard. Man I would have appreciated some honesty. Man I would have appreciated some communication. And it feels like I was a passenger all this like oh, like I get this all the time. Hey man, like you're nice guy. You didn't do anything. You didn't do anything. And it's like I'm the passenger and all this. I went down swinging. I tried to fight. I did some stupid grand gestures, I would have shown up with a good talker, like while she was cheating. Like, I'm an idiot. It's like the punishment doesn't fit the crime because like I didn't really do anything, but like I lost my town. I lost my home, my bed, essentially a big chunk of my family. And then that's not, you know, if you are someone on the other side of this man or you're going through something, you know, I think communication is key honesty is key, I think everything would have been way different had she come to me from the beginning and says, Hey, I'm confused, I got a new job. There's someone there. I want you to hear from me. You know what I mean? Like it said it like the whole catching in the text thing. It was like, she's already gone. Like, apparently. I'm not going to say she was a selfless person by any means. But it was like no one, no one mattered. And I'll give you I'll give you this. I did speak to a mutual friend who he spoke to her on the phone. The day after I caught her. And what these are her words, and I never heard these from her. I was probably not supposed to hear these words. She said, “I love Logan. Logan's my best friend. But I'm glad I did it. I just did everything the wrong way.” It doesn't matter. My home. The people You and I both know have been there, Marissa, like, she gets to keep all of it, you know, and use it however, with ever, whoever she sees fit. And to me, that's just like, its ultimate disrespect. But that's the end game.
 
Marissa: I'm really sorry that you're going through all this, it just seems like everything she did was calculated to maintain control of the situation. You know, she knows she did it wrong. She admitted that to people, and it's not okay. And I'm sorry that you got left on the sideline feeling like dirt, feeling like nothing. And you're not stupid or ridiculous for doing any of those grand gestures. That's 100% in your character. And for a person who maintained control of situation the whole time and gave you really no sort of leeway, or no insight into what was going on. Of course, it would leave you feeling like scrambling and trying to put things together. You're a fixer you are and that's, 100% you. And you can't beat yourself up for something like that. Because it's, it wasn't the wrong thing to do. The wrong thing to do was maintain control of a two-sided situation without giving the partner or her best friend, any sort of insight or a hand.
 
Logan: You had said to me like, Hey, you never gave any sort of consent to have somebody in your home. Again, it's like things you need to hear from the outside. I was like, Yeah, like, that's super not okay. It's crazy. I could go on and on. But the big takeaway here is like, it's not fair to me moving forward. Everyone's been great. And like, I've been reconnecting with people and my relationships with God gotten stronger and that's just super positive. But it's not fair to me, because in any sort of relationship moving forward, I'm going to have major like, I'm not going to try to take my baggage with me. I don't think anyone should. But it's, it's easier said than do. And I'm a big, big actions speak louder than words, especially after what I've been through. I'm a big action speak louder than words kind of person. But it's not fair to me. Because into any relationship, I'm moving forward, I'm going to have major trust issues. Because we were good, until the second we weren't, and there was somebody else. In my mind, anyway, I thought that was the hurdle on our marriage. She made her bed.
 
Marissa: So, I have kind of a segue question. It's sort of related. But I do want to know, would we consider cheating abuse? Is cheating abuse? Is cheating emotional abuse?
 
Logan: Great question. Like I said, at the beginning, anything I'm going through like the deception, the lying, the cheating, the distress. In my mind, like I know, you say not to compare, but like, the things that people go through with physical abuse, like, you know, people have been like locked in closets or getting physically abused or hurt or sexually harassed, or that stuff like that is way worse Like that is terrible. That is abuse. I do think just from the way I feel, I do think like even just the texting, and my buddy called it like, you know, even early on with the texting was going on and then I had mentioned it to someone I'm very close with because I did need to heal. And he said, Look, she's already gone man, like if the texting has already happened. And sure enough, he was right. I mean, led all the way to our three and a half weeks later in our apartment, like I never thought that would be the case. But when the texting happened, I felt not taken for granted. I just felt like dirt. You know, even just with the texting, I felt like I was worthless. I felt like, like I was competing with someone and I know my worth and I never have confidence issues because I put a lot of heart and soul to everything I do. And I'm well respected and I have a reputation and then in the music scene, a very positive one which again, is another ripple effect in this. But I felt very just kind of like even then just like used. So… and then when the ultimate cheating app and you feel man, I did not matter at all like there's someone in my apartment like I am…
 
Marissa: So, the actual definition of abuse is manipulation to have power and control over a person. Manipulation or coercion in order to maintain power and control over a person.
 
Logan: That made it way easier. Say yeah, 100%. I mean, like it was Lie, lie it was push everyone away to bring someone else in. It wasn't just to me it was the family. It was to the band. My band may either say, hey, she hung everyone out to dry. No, I understand your priorities. You're going through something like that, man, this person better than worth it. But I would say 100%. Emotionally, yeah. emotionally abusive. Yeah, that messed me up for a long while. Luckily, it was like I was falling off a cliff. And I was like, screaming and like, everybody caught me. And that's including you, Marissa
 
Marissa: Well, we're all happy to do it. And honestly, I think it's amazing that you had such a strong and tight support network. You know, ranging from people you haven't talked in a long time or meeting who we really didn't know each other very well, to people you're super close with, like your best friends and her family. That is such a testament to your character. And I'm not a religious person I hate like the #blessed thing. I think that that's so obnoxious. But I think that you're so blessed to have such a strong, amazing community around you. And we're all grateful to be here for you, whenever you need it. So, tell me a little bit about what has helped you heal from all of this, because obviously, it's been really heavy, and it's very, very recent, but you seem to be handling it well, and moving on, at least in your own way. Like you're not holding on it anymore. And that's really important and really, really amazing. So, what are some tips and tricks that you've tried that have worked for you?
 
Logan: That's an amazing question. You know, we talked about it earlier, in terms of healing. But obviously, like my friends and family, and apparently her family, being so supportive. And everyone just kind of saying, they're really using these words, you're a good guy, which again, I'm not in love with, but also saying you handle this with integrity, which I'm trying to do, again. Like just because someone did everything the wrong way, doesn't mean that I have to. And I'm not going to go on social media and post a bunch of things. You know, at the same time, if you want to talk to me, I'm an open book. I'll be respectful of certain things in this story. You know, the, one of the ministers I spoke with, I said, like, the hardest thing for me was wrapping my head around, like how it could just happen like a light. Like, how did this just happen? Like, new job, new person in my home? Like, how did this happen? My head is still spinning. And my minister said, “It's like, you have emotional whiplash.” I thought that was a great, great analogy. And then I have the best friends in the world, my buddy, who's a cop, I was talking to him. And he sees crazy stuff every day, man. And he said something to me, that hopefully people can take away from here. But he says something to me, he goes, “Be happy, you can't understand it, because that means you're not capable of it.” And I thought that was brilliant. Because I still can't understand it. Like I had said, if roles were reversed. You know, say I had fallen for some dude and a new job, or whatever it is. I feel like there could be communication. And I'm not saying like, that would have been the case. I don't know. I'm not in anyone else's shoes. But I feel like there would have been a lot more honesty. I feel like there would have been a lot more communication. But everyone's been there from even moving out of the apartment. Even letting me crash somewhere. Open Arms. I've received so much love and encouragement, which I’m… you know, everyone's going to be there. Like when you fall, but when you see it, it's overwhelming. My family, my sister, everyone's just been amazing. I have amazing friends who are some of who are first responders who are going through some crazy stuff right now, who are going through way crazier stuff and then I'm going through, it's key. I'm not used to the encouragement. I'm not used to all the love and the mushy stuff. But you see how much your love loved and appreciated. And I think integrity and not reputation, but integrity and showing the kind of person you are really does speak volumes. And people show that they appreciate you and that they love you. And like I said everyone was just kind of like, yeah, we're good on her. You could do better. You know what I mean? Like everyone was just kind of, they love me and they want to see the best for me. Just surround yourself with people in life who got your back who don't stab you in the back. But people who got your back and you’ll know who those people are.
 
Marissa: Yeah, they say that in your darkest times or when, when the people who are truly on your side show up.
 
Logan: Absolutely. And I lived it.
 
Marissa: Well, thank you so, so much for joining us today. And thank you for sharing your truth and being raw and honest. And you know, I hope everything just keeps growing for you and your creative endeavors. And everything because you really are a good guy. And you have a big heart.
 
Logan: Marissa, more importantly, thank you for what you do for people who've been through some crazy, crazy stuff I appreciate you all you have done for me, not just talking with me, but constantly checking up on me and putting up with my rambling. So I super appreciate you keep up all the good work that you do and I'm just going to say now there's going to be a bunch more Amazon best-selling books on the way.
 
If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
 
Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse are so important to your mental health and to living a life of freedom, confidence and peace.  Today, I want to discuss What Makes a good relationship. 
 
Everybody has different expectations for what they want in a partner, and what makes up a good relationship, but there are four areas in which a relationship needs to be solid in order for it to be considered a healthy relationship.
 
A healthy relationship needs to have communication, trust, respect and emotional support to succeed.
 
1. Communication
 
Communication skills come in two forms, verbal communication and nonverbal communication. Verbal communication, is the way we speak to each other.  Do we speak to each other with encouraging words, love, respect, and kindness? Verbal communication is how we get to know each other.  Our likes and dislikes, the things that makes us tick. It’s how we argue and fight, set and learn boundaries. It’s the quickest and most efficient way to learn about each other.
 
Nonverbal communication is body language and facial expressions.  Being observant to how your partner responds to your words and your behaviors. The things that make them smile or cry.  The ways in which their body moves in reaction to things. You learn a lot about a persons psychology by watching how they move, when they move, and communicating motions of love, acceptance and comfort.
 
When there are barriers in communication, or situations in which we are miscommunicating or  communicating improperly, it causes discomfort and resistance.  It pushes our partner away.  And that’s a large contributor to toxic relationships. 
 
2. Trust
 
In toxic relationships, we are taught to not trust anyone aside from our narcissist, including ourselves.  A healthy relationship is built on trust.  Trust is the foundation of a healthy relationship, and that includes a feeling of security, loyalty and commitment.  In toxic relationships, narcissists will lie, cheat and gaslight us, making us feel crazy and instilling us with self-doubt.  That shaky and unstable lack of trust does a lot of damage to the relationship. 
 
In a healthy relationship, you feel secure and that it’s stable and there is a solid foundation of commitment and loyalty.  You aren’t worried that your toxic partner is cheating on you and lying about it.  You’re not worried that there is somebody else or that you need to hold on tighter to keep them around.  Your partner trusts you, and you trust them, and there’s a mutual feeling of comfort and security.
3. Respect
 
Respect is arguably the most important aspect of a healthy relationship.  Respect is showing somebody that you care, that you are valid, and that you are loved. When you respect someone, you hold them in high regard, and their opinion and interests matter to you. 
 
You can respect someones opinion, even if you disagree.  You can respect someones boundaries, especially when you’ve experienced a narcissist, someone respecting your boundaries is really important.  You can respect someones space and wishes. 
 
All of these amount to a very healthy balance of power, and a healthy relationship.
 
4. Emotional Support
 
Humans are social creatures, which means that we require emotional support.  We have our logical side and our emotional side.  Even if one over-powers the other, we are all still motivated by emotion.  That’s why we love sentimental things, and watching movies.  They spark some sort of emotion, whether it be adrenaline, happiness, sadness, fear, etc.
 
When we, as survivors are having bad days, or episodes or just feeling bad, we need someone to give us the emotional support that we require.  If that means that they just listen to you vent, or comfort you, or bring your favorite food, then that’s enough.  And it works both ways.  A healthy relationship is one where the playing field is equal, and both partners feel supported emotionally. 
 
Hey! If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...
 
Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to be a five year process either. Millions of other survivors around the worlds entire lives have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.
 
Overcoming narcissism and healing from emotional abuse are so important to your mental health and to living a life of freedom, confidence and peace.  Today, I want to highlight Signs of a Toxic Relationship.  It is important to be able to recognize red flags, so that we can safely avoid toxic people. 
 
There are 11 signs of a toxic relationship.  Learn how to recognize them so you are prepared and know how to avoid toxic people.
 
Narcissistic Deflection (Deflection)What does deflection mean? It’s diverting a conversation, topic or blame to someone else, usually the survivor.  It is playing mind games with the survivor to make them feel crazy or that they are to blame for the outcome of the narcissists behavior.
 
Are Narcissists Loyal? (Poor Commitment)
The short answer is no.  That doesn’t guarantee that your partner is cheating on you, but loyalty is also keeping promises and appointments.  Narcissists and toxic partners are notorious for leaving survivors waiting around for them, and lying. This alone makes them unreliable and undependable.  If your partner is lying to you, or dodging plans, or making you wait for them with no response or courtesy call, they aren’t being loyal, or dependable.
 
My Partner Doesn’t Respect My Boundaries (Disrespect)
 
Narcissists and toxic people don’t like being told no.  I mean, nobody does, but narcs especially aren’t fond of boundaries, because it limits their control.  So, in order to maintain control they will continue to disrespect and push your boundaries, and most often, blame it on you for not being clear; or apologize, but then continue to push the boundary until you give in.
 
Some relationships can drain you, especially when the toxic person is in constant, nonstop contact, has impossible expectations or is in constant fear of gossip about them. It’s unproductive and exhausting to have to entertain these conversations. Communication and respect are two huge and important characteristics of a healthy relationship. If your partner isn’t respecting you, your wishes or your body, that’s a huge sign of a toxic relationship.
 
Are Narcissists Spiteful? (Spiteful/Vengeful)
 
If your partner uses words and actions as a means of revenge, they are the definition of a toxic person.   Narcissists tend to be very jealous, and also very spiteful.  They detest when other people have what they want, and that can translate to economic or career goals, material objects, people and attention.  They will often seek revenge against someone when they feel threatened, by either verbally, emotionally or physically attacking the survivor.  A healthy partnership should be building each other up, encouraging and motivating each other to be and do their best.  And if that is not the case, then your partner is a narcissist.
 
Healthy Give and Take Relationships (Inequality)
 
A major sign of a toxic relationship is when you have a partner who asks for help and advice but never has the time to support you. They want your attention, your help, your money, your time, but don’t reciprocate the sentiment when you need it.  The relationship revolves around them and their needs, always.
 
How To Know If Your Relationship Is Healthy (Using Your Information Against You)
 
In a healthy relationship, your partner will support you and not take advantage of the information they have from you. A toxic partner will use the information you’ve given them to manipulate you into doing what they want.  They will use your past or your weaknesses against you, to make you feel guilt, shame or submission to gain control. They may use personal information to demean you in front of others, or use it to manipulate you into doing what they want. This is a clear sign of a toxic relationship that you should get out of.
 
 
My Partner Doesn’t Like My Family or Friends (Isolation)
 
Narcissists and Toxic People don’t like competition, and they don’t like it when people influence their survivors. They want to keep their partner exactly where they want them, with no outside perspectives.  If your partner is constantly bashing your friends and family members, and trying to monopolize your time, this is a big indication of an unhealthy relationship. 
 
Lack of Integrity in Relationships (Actions Don’t Match Their “Values”)
 
When what they say doesn’t align with their actions, that is a red flag. Narcissists know how to say all the right things, but they do nothing to back up what they say. In fact, they usually contradict themselves, and confuse survivors.  We know they know the right thing to do, but they choose to do the opposite.  It's all toxic behavior and mind games.
 
Lack of Trust in A Relationship (Defensiveness)
 
A general rule of thumb is, someone with a guilty conscious get’s defensive, and usually accuses the victim of the crime or behavior the narcissist is committing.  So, if your partner is accusing you of cheating or demanding that they cannot trust you, chances are, they are doing what they’re accusing you of.  And that lack of trust is an indicator of trying to isolate you from your friends and family. 
 
10. My Partner Tries to Control Me (Controlling / Manipulation)
 
I’ve already mentioned a few ways that narcissists and toxic partners use to control you. By controlling your time and attention, and isolating you from family and friends.  But there are also other ways that they use.  For example, making comments about your body to limit or control your eating habits.  By not-so-politely recommending you eat less or eat more in order to … fill in the blank.  They also will comment, recommend or control the clothing you’re allowed to wear, especially around people of the gender or sex you’re interested in, even if that person isn’t someone you’re interested in. If your partner, in an unhealthy and unwanted way, is monitoring your eating habits, spending habits, spiritual habits, and free-will, they are toxic, and this is a toxic relationship.
 
11. Narcissistic Jealousy (Jealous)
 
The last red flag of a toxic relationship is someone who is perpetually pulling you down or holding you back from achieving your personal or professional goals. It’s healthy to have “the challenger” who pokes holes in your assumptions and makes you aware of the risks to protect you and help you gain clarity, but when this turns into perpetual negativity, it’s a toxic relationship.  You want to be with someone who encourages and motivates you.  Not someone who is jealous of your aspirations and keeps you feeling unaccomplished and unmotivated.
 
 
 
If any of these behaviors are things that you’re experiencing with your partner, please get help.  All of these are toxic behaviors, that will keep you feeling stuck and isolated until you take control back and leave.  I am here to help in any way I can.  Feel free to reach out to me via my website: www.MarissaFayeCohen.com or by email at me@MarissaFayeCohen.com.  I also have a Free Safety Planning Guide on my website at www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Free-resources .  Cutting out a toxic partner is difficult, but necessary. Narcissists push boundaries and things will just get worse. Reach out to me for support.  I’m happy to help.   
 
Schedule a Personal Call with Marissa
 
Hey! If you enjoyed this article, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching.  Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!
 
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